Genesis....Fact or fiction?

[Born_Again]

SEEM would be the operative word here.

Exactly, Stan. Carbon dating has been wrong before, at least other scientist have said such. Look at it this way, "recent study shows processed meat gives you cancer" Okay, without getting into that topic, you know that in ten years another study will come out saying that one was wrong. This happens all the time. Personally, I think a lot of science is particular people pushing agendas.

 

[Barrd]

So, you guys do not trust science at all, is that right?
Tell me, did you have your kids vaccinated?

Do you get a flu shot every year?

Why or why not?

 

[Born_Again]

So, you guys do not trust science at all, is that right?
Tell me, did you have your kids vaccinated?

Do you get a flu shot every year?

Why or why not?

Well, I don't recall saying I don't trust scientist. I can review my posts but I'm pretty sure that is not what I said. We are talking about time and age of the Earth according to science. You are venturing into another category. I have good friends who are scientist and theist. As far as vaccinations, well if you don't do them then your children cant attend school.

 

[Barrd]

Well, I don't recall saying I don't trust scientist. I can review my posts but I'm pretty sure that is not what I said. We are talking about time and age of the Earth according to science. You are venturing into another category. I have good friends who are scientist and theist. As far as vaccinations, well if you don't do them then your children cant attend school.

Why do you think that is, Born Again?

 

[Born_Again]

Why do you think that is, Born Again?

Why do I think what is?

 

[Barrd]

Why do I think what is?

Why do you think we require kids to be vaccinated before we allow them to come to school?

And why do we recommend that everyone get a flu shot every year?

 

[Born_Again]

Why do you think we require kids to be vaccinated before we allow them to come to school?

And why do we recommend that everyone get a flu shot every year?

This has what to do with OP?

 

[Barrd]

This has what to do with OP?

You need that fllu shot every year because of evolution.

http://www.livescience.com/16433-everyday-evolution-flu-shots.html

Every year, a team of health experts designs a vaccine to protect against the three circulating flu strains they predict will be the most prevalent that season. The vaccine helps your body make antibodies to fight those selected strains. But flu viruses replicate quickly and have a high rate of genetic changes, or mutations, so the helpful antibodies you may have developed to a previous year's strains often can't attach to this year's mutated viruses. Such adaptation helps
the flu virus thrive in its environment. It survives, infects and multiplies. In other words, it evolves. And the flu vaccine must evolve each year to keep up.

Does this mean that the Creation story in Genesis is false?
No, not at all.
But it does mean that it took a little longer than six 24 hour terran diurnal units of time.

Obviously, God did not give us technical details in how to create a universe, or in how to create life.
Which is probably just as well....

 

[River Jordan]

There's been plenty of back and forth over this subject here at CB, and like with everywhere else it seems, with no resolution or changing of minds. So the best most of us can do is just state our views and support them. Here are mine.

It is possible that the Genesis creation accounts (there are two) are accurate and non-literal (in a fundamentalist kind of way). Genesis 1 says God created life by letting the earth bring forth things, which very much coincides with our scientific understanding. Also, it's hard for me to believe that the days in Genesis 1 are literal 24-hour earth days when the sun wasn't created until day 4.

I know it's hard for some folks to accept, but the science is extremely clear on a few things (and has been for a very long time). The universe is tens of billions of years old, the earth is ~4 billion years old, there was no global flood 4,000 years ago, and life on earth shares a common evolutionary ancestry. Sure, anyone with internet access can Google a few creationist websites and paste them into a forum with no further discussion, but you can do the same thing with any subject....bigfoot, flat earth, alien abductions, etc. The fact remains however, the science behind the items I listed earlier is very, very solid, and no amount of hyperbolic rhetoric on creationist websites is going to change that.

 

[Barrd]

There's been plenty of back and forth over this subject here at CB, and like with everywhere else it seems, with no resolution or changing of minds. So the best most of us can do is just state our views and support them. Here are mine.

It is possible that the Genesis creation accounts (there are two) are accurate and non-literal (in a fundamentalist kind of way). Genesis 1 says God created life by letting the earth bring forth things, which very much coincides with our scientific understanding. Also, it's hard for me to believe that the days in Genesis 1 are literal 24-hour earth days when the sun wasn't created until day 4.

I know it's hard for some folks to accept, but the science is extremely clear on a few things (and has been for a very long time). The universe is tens of billions of years old, the earth is ~4 billion years old, there was no global flood 4,000 years ago, and life on earth shares a common evolutionary ancestry. Sure, anyone with internet access can Google a few creationist websites and paste them into a forum with no further discussion, but you can do the same thing with any subject....bigfoot, flat earth, alien abductions, etc. The fact remains however, the science behind the items I listed earlier is very, very solid, and no amount of hyperbolic rhetoric on creationist websites is going to change that.

Hey, River....it seems that we find ourselves in agreement!
Well, almost. I do believe that Noah's flood happened, as the Bible says...lack of scientific evidence doesn't really bother me...after all, this is God we're talking about. Besides, I strongly suspect that our dating may be waayyyy off... There are just too many such flood stories to pass it off as "myth"...

Bigfoot? Alien abductions? Oh, my!

 

[River Jordan]

Hey, River....it seems that we find ourselves in agreement!

Well, almost. I do believe that Noah's flood happened, as the Bible says...lack of scientific evidence doesn't really bother me...after all, this is God we're talking about. Besides, I strongly suspect that our dating may be waayyyy off... There are just too many such flood stories to pass it off as "myth"...

Actually, as someone who works with people who conduct those dating studies, I can tell you that their methods are extremely sound and the results are very reliable. It's funny how when Biblical artifacts are found and dated, Christians are all like "Hey, look at what science has found!" But when the same dating methods go against what they believe, suddenly the science can just be waved away.

Bigfoot? Alien abductions? Oh, my!

Yeah....there's all sorts of crazy stuff on the internet. That's why "I found a website that agrees with me" isn't that meaningful.

 

[Barrd]

Actually, as someone who works with people who conduct those dating studies, I can tell you that their methods are extremely sound and the results are very reliable. It's funny how when Biblical artifacts are found and dated, Christians are all like "Hey, look at what science has found!" But when the same dating methods go against what they believe, suddenly the science can just be waved away.

First of all, you misunderstood me. I meant our dating as to when the flood happened.
Second, even science can make the occasional mistake. At the end of the day, I will believe God, first.
And finally....who said God had to leave behind any "scientific evidence", anyway?

Yeah....there's all sorts of crazy stuff on the internet. That's why "I found a website that agrees with me" isn't that meaningful.

On the other hand, there is a lot of good, valid information on the internet.

And do try to remember....there is quite a huge universe out there...for all we know, there just might be a planet out there, somewhere, where pink unicorns actually exist. Perhaps they are even the dominant species.
Or, perhaps some alien, somewhere, was having tea, and accidentally jettisoned his teapot...and now, it is out there, somewhere, revolving around some planet.
I wouldn't be quite so quick to declare that there is no such thing as bigfoot...although I am a bit hesitant about alien abductions.
Still, oh, Horatio....

 

[StanJ]

I never really worried very much about this.
Should I have?

Worry, no. Concerned when it does not agree with God's written word...of course. As people of faith, we are to ALWAYS accept God's word as FACT before considering ANYTHING man has to say to the contrary.

Gen 1 is an accurate literal translation, as most all credentialed Hebrew scholars say so.

 

[Barrd]

Worry, no. Concerned when it does not agree with God's written word...of course. As people of faith, we are to ALWAYS accept God's word as FACT before considering ANYTHING man has to say to the contrary.

Gen 1 is an accurate literal translation, as most all credentialed Hebrew scholars say so.

It never once occurred to me to suppose that God would even consider giving us a technical manual on "How To Create Your Own Universe In Just Six Days", or "Creating A Man From Dust"....
And if He were to do such a thing, who could actually read such a thing, or hope to understand it?

It is enough for my poor brain to look upon the grandeur that is Creation, with all the beauty and majesty that it contains, and be content to know that God Did It.
I don't need the technical details....I will leave that to science.

 

[StanJ]

It never once occurred to me to suppose that God would even consider giving us a technical manual on "How To Create Your Own Universe In Just Six Days", or "Creating A Man From Dust"....
And if He were to do such a thing, who could actually read such a thing, or hope to understand it?

It is enough for my poor brain to look upon the grandeur that is Creation, with all the beauty and majesty that it contains, and be content to know that God Did It.
I don't need the technical details....I will leave that to science.

Of course, that is the whole purpose of walking in faith. Explaining something that we can't possible replicate would be useless.

Science has no more of an idea than true believers do in this matter, and IMO, it would be problematic for anyone to LEAVE IT TO SCIENCE.

 

[Barrd]

Of course, that is the whole purpose of walking in faith. Explaining something that we can't possible replicate would be useless.

Science has no more of an idea than true believers do in this matter, and IMO, it would be problematic for anyone to LEAVE IT TO SCIENCE.

Science probably has a better idea of how old the universe, or the earth, actually is, than we do.
It seems fairly obvious, even to a fool like me, that the universe was not created in six 24 hour periods.
Even allowing for some error in carbon dating methods, it is still obvious that the earth is a good bit older than....what is it? 6 or 7 thousand years?

Of course, we have a very long way to go before we can claim to know all there is to know about this one bit of rock....obviously, we will never plumb all the secrets of the universe.

I, for one, am grateful to the many medical breakthroughs that science has made. Because of this research, my grand daughter, who was born with no wall between the chambers of her tiny heart, is alive and well and just celebrated her Sweet Sixteen.

Would it be safe to assume, given your attitude toward science, that you do not have a family doctor, or use any medicine?
You do know that in our country, it is illegal to with hold medical treatment from one's children? You may believe in faith healing all you want to, but when your kid is sick or hurt, you'd better take her to the doctor.

Every time you flick a light switch, or sit down at your computer, or slide behind the wheel of your automobile, or do any one of a hundred things you take for granted every day, you are using science.

It's funny...those who believe in evolution call me a "fundie"....but "fundies" have another name for me...

 

[StanJ]

Science probably has a better idea of how old the universe, or the earth, actually is, than we do.
It seems fairly obvious, even to a fool like me, that the universe was not created in six 24 hour periods.
Even allowing for some error in carbon dating methods, it is still obvious that the earth is a good bit older than....what is it? 6 or 7 thousand years?

Of course, we have a very long way to go before we can claim to know all there is to know about this one bit of rock....obviously, we will never plumb all the secrets of the universe.

I, for one, am grateful to the many medical breakthroughs that science has made. Because of this research, my grand daughter, who was born with no wall between the chambers of her tiny heart, is alive and well and just celebrated her Sweet Sixteen.

Would it be safe to assume, given your attitude toward science, that you do not have a family doctor, or use any medicine?
You do know that in our country, it is illegal to with hold medical treatment from one's children? You may believe in faith healing all you want to, but when your kid is sick or hurt, you'd better take her to the doctor.

Every time you flick a light switch, or sit down at your computer, or slide behind the wheel of your automobile, or do any one of a hundred things you take for granted every day, you are using science.

It's funny...those who believe in evolution call me a "fundie"....but "fundies" have another name for me...

That then is putting scientists above God's written word, which obviously cannot be condoned. It is NOT obvious to me.

We WILL know when we are with Jesus, whenever that may be.

Please don't confuse proven medical science with unproven and theoretical geologic science. They are NOT the same nor do they have the same track records.

No, and that kind of assumption, albeit IMO not a real one, would be a tad disingenuous to voice here based on all my input.
Actually it not illegal to withhold when one's views are religious, which is why the JWs have such a bad PR problem.

That's right Barrd....PROVEN science, NOT theoretical or invalidated science.

I've never liked names or label for Christians, and 'fundie' is so derogatory I hate it even being used. It does NOT apply to any one person, and IMO is used simple as a personal attack on believers.

 

[Born_Again]

Science probably has a better idea of how old the universe, or the earth, actually is, than we do.
It seems fairly obvious, even to a fool like me, that the universe was not created in six 24 hour periods.
Even allowing for some error in carbon dating methods, it is still obvious that the earth is a good bit older than....what is it? 6 or 7 thousand years?

Of course, we have a very long way to go before we can claim to know all there is to know about this one bit of rock....obviously, we will never plumb all the secrets of the universe.

I, for one, am grateful to the many medical breakthroughs that science has made. Because of this research, my grand daughter, who was born with no wall between the chambers of her tiny heart, is alive and well and just celebrated her Sweet Sixteen.

Would it be safe to assume, given your attitude toward science, that you do not have a family doctor, or use any medicine?
You do know that in our country, it is illegal to with hold medical treatment from one's children? You may believe in faith healing all you want to, but when your kid is sick or hurt, you'd better take her to the doctor.

Every time you flick a light switch, or sit down at your computer, or slide behind the wheel of your automobile, or do any one of a hundred things you take for granted every day, you are using science.

It's funny...those who believe in evolution call me a "fundie"....but "fundies" have another name for me...

Okay, I'm diving in. First, science that researches the geology of the Earth and science that creates medicine are two different types of science. Second, your theology or whatever you want to call it is weak. Why? Let me help you. You are stating the validity of the bible and creation is flawed because science has medical breakthroughs? Very weak. This may not be an exact quote from you but let me paraphrase. "I have faith in God. I believe in God, but there is no way the God of all creation could have done it all in 6 days"

It sounds like you don't have much faith at all. its like you are teetering between Christian and Atheist. But you're not sure what suites your taste. Please enlighten me with sound theology.

 

[Barrd]

Whoa, now my faith is called into question, because I do not believe that the "six days" of Creation must of a necessity be six earth-time days?
There is not one iota of doubt in my mind that God created the universe.
Note....that would include the entire universe...not just this one tiny bit of it.
And there is not one iota of doubt in my mind that He could have done it in an instant of time, had He chosen to do so.
It is a ridiculous argument from the start, because God is not limited by either time or space.

Yes, when we are with Jesus we will know the truth of it. I am content to wait till then, since it is impossible for me to know exactly how He created the universe before that time.

At one time, the church fought bitterly against the notion that the earth was not the center of the universe. The idea that the earth was one of several planets that revolved around the sun was anathema to those men.
And then, the church was proven wrong, and science triumphed.

Now, you'd think we would have learned from their mistake. But no...the church...or at least a portion of it...now takes it's stand, declaring that science must be wrong in it's estimate of the age of the earth and her environs.
Imho, you are setting yourself up to, once more, make fools of yourselves, and of all believers, and why?
Once again, a "day" isn't even the same length everywhere on this one planet, let alone all throughout this universe, so why are you insisting on using this time unit as the only criteria?

 

[River Jordan]

First of all, you misunderstood me. I meant our dating as to when the flood happened.

All righty then.

Second, even science can make the occasional mistake. At the end of the day, I will believe God, first.
And finally....who said God had to leave behind any "scientific evidence", anyway?

Science is merely the best means we've come up with to study God's creation, so it doesn't have to be a matter of having to choose between the two. It wasn't that long ago when Christians were totally convinced scripture depicted a stationary earth that was orbited by the rest of the universe, but once science showed that to be wrong, we went back and re-examined our interpretations.

As far as God leaving behind evidence, I can't think of any reason why God would go through the trouble of covering his tracks.

On the other hand, there is a lot of good, valid information on the internet.

Oh sure. My point was merely that posting links to a website with no further comment isn't very compelling.

And do try to remember....there is quite a huge universe out there...for all we know, there just might be a planet out there, somewhere, where pink unicorns actually exist. Perhaps they are even the dominant species.
Or, perhaps some alien, somewhere, was having tea, and accidentally jettisoned his teapot...and now, it is out there, somewhere, revolving around some planet.
I wouldn't be quite so quick to declare that there is no such thing as bigfoot...although I am a bit hesitant about alien abductions.
Still, oh, Horatio....

No doubt. Who knows what's out there?

Whoa, now my faith is called into question, because I do not believe that the "six days" of Creation must of a necessity be six earth-time days?

Oh, sweetie....you have no idea. You should see some of the crap that's been thrown my way about that.