Get Rapture Ready or will you be be left Behind?

[Mal'ak]

There is no rapture in how some flesh religions explain it, people are scared of what they read in the book of Revelations so some smart "pastors" came up with a way to get lots of followers and money into their Church. Saying "we believe there is a rapture, and you do not even have to deal with any of that scary stuff. Join my Church put money in the offering basket, and I will explain why you have nothing to fear!"

But if we listen to Jesus instead of man, we will learn:

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

"You will be hated of all nations for my name's sake", so we will be here and hated because "many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" into believing the anti-Christ is Jesus Christ. "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved", so we know we have to endure until the end of the tribulation to be given salvation.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Here Jesus gives us instructions of what to do during that time (why would he give us a how-to guide for tribulation, if we are going to be raptured?), when "abomination of desolation stands in the holy place" which is when satan the anti-christ rebuilds the temple and reigns within as is prophecy we are to go into hiding and wait until Jesus return.

Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Then we receive some warnings, "woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days". It will be a very hard time for pastors that have immature Christians depending on them for guidance, and for the immature/new Christians that have no idea what to do or what is going on (including those that ripped Revelations out of their Bible thinking they would be raptured, so never learned anything about the tribulation to protect themselves). We are told that there will be wonders and signs so great it will be hard to stay faithful to God and not worship satan, and if the time was not shortened none would be able to endure it.

Now we will get to the famous "Jesus will gather everyone in the clouds" one verse to back up the entire rapture, which is taken out of context:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The key word here everyone seems to neglect, is the "trump of God" for "the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven". The point it says Jesus will "descend" or come down, at the sound of a trumpet.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Those that read Revelations, it is the seventh or LAST trumpet that Jesus comes and gathers the saints to him. The Tribulation is ended, and all the Christians will be gathered to reign with Christ for a thousand years. Let us return to Jesus' words, as we should let the High Priest teach instead of traditions of man:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

"Immediately after the tribulation" they "will see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven", and Jesus will "send his angel with a sound of a trumpet (7th trumpet/last trumpet) to gather his chosen".

Not part of it, but as a reason why we are gathered in the "clouds" or what does it mean by "in the clouds"...fun fact:

Revelation 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

Revelation 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Revelation 14:​

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Revelation 14:​

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

The temple in Heaven was opened to the world in the clouds, the angels that signaled each stage of the tribulation came out of the temple and were on the clouds. So when the Bible speaks of us going to the clouds with Jesus, it just means after he returns the Temple in Heaven will be revealed to the world and Jesus will reign there with the Chosen in the sky while the non-believers remain on the ground.

Glory to God!!!

 

[Trekson]

Is that really all you have to offer. "What Corel says"? "What do you think"? In other words, you have no idea. Which is what I expected in the first place, as your order of events was constantly conflicting and it is apparent you don't know have any idea.

Do a study and get back with me, and tell me what 'you' think the purpose of the 70th week is. Please use Scripture.

Stranger

Sorry Stranger but these things are supposed to be a dialogue, not a questionnaire. You've asked a lot of questions over and over that have been answered w/o offering anything in return. So, it's your turn. Share what you believe or leave me alone.

 

[Stranger]

Sorry Stranger but these things are supposed to be a dialogue, not a questionnaire. You've asked a lot of questions over and over that have been answered w/o offering anything in return. So, it's your turn. Share what you believe or leave me alone.

You instigated the conversion in your post #38. Not me. Question and answer is much a part of discussion and debate. It reveals much about ones position. I was told once by a Bible teacher who I have the greatest respect for, "If your position can be shaken, then it needs to be shaken".

You made the 'definitive' statement that there is no 7 year tribulation. Thus you need to answer some questions as how you arrived at that. So far your understanding is confusing.

If you don't want to answer that's fine.

Stranger

 

[Trekson]

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Those that read Revelations, it is the seventh or LAST trumpet that Jesus comes and gathers the saints to him. The Tribulation is ended, and all the Christians will be gathered to reign with Christ for a thousand years. Let us return to Jesus' words, as we should let the High Priest teach instead of traditions of man:

I know a lot of people believe the 7th trump is the last trump but I think they err from a matter of perspective. According to Zech. 9:14 - "And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south." I believe this to be the prophetic last trumpet, one that God Himself blows, not an angel as in the 7th trump.

The blowing of the trumpet in ancient Israel had three primary functions. The first was to call a solemn assembly, the second, when Israel under Divine direction was to go to war and the third was at the coronation of a new king. There are two major themes associated with The Day of the Lord. The first is deliverance of the righteous and the second is the judgment of the wicked. In connection with His Second Coming, Jesus will first call His own to Himself, the Rapture, and then will go to war against His enemies, concluding with His Coronation as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

 

[Trekson]

You instigated the conversion in your post #38. Not me. Question and answer is much a part of discussion and debate. It reveals much about ones position. I was told once by a Bible teacher who I have the greatest respect for, "If your position can be shaken, then it needs to be shaken".

You made the 'definitive' statement that there is no 7 year tribulation. Thus you need to answer some questions as how you arrived at that. So far your understanding is confusing.

If you don't want to answer that's fine.

Stranger

I've answered several times, the fact is, in the bible there is no mention of a tribulation that is seven years long. If you want to continue, show me where it says, "And there will be a time of tribulation that shall last for seven years."

 

[Stranger]

I've answered several times, the fact is, in the bible there is no mention of a tribulation that is seven years long. If you want to continue, show me where it says, "And there will be a time of tribulation that shall last for seven years."

I am showing you. Tell me the purpose of the 70th week that you already admit to being 7 years.

Stranger

 

[Mal'ak]

I know a lot of people believe the 7th trump is the last trump but I think they err from a matter of perspective. According to Zech. 9:14 - "And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south." I believe this to be the prophetic last trumpet, one that God Himself blows, not an angel as in the 7th trump.

The blowing of the trumpet in ancient Israel had three primary functions. The first was to call a solemn assembly, the second, when Israel under Divine direction was to go to war and the third was at the coronation of a new king. There are two major themes associated with The Day of the Lord. The first is deliverance of the righteous and the second is the judgment of the wicked. In connection with His Second Coming, Jesus will first call His own to Himself, the Rapture, and then will go to war against His enemies, concluding with His Coronation as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

If Jesus sounds the Trumpet after or along with the seventh angel, it does not really disprove or prove anything. But if you did look at the verse closer it says "the Lord...with a shout", then "voice of the archangel", and "with the trump of God". It does not say God will blow the trump, it only says it is God's trumpet, which would suggest his instruction/power which the angel is sharing with the world as they are his messengers. But the verse shows that 3 sounds are being made by Jesus' shout, voice of the archangel, and a trump of God all at the same time. And yes trumpets are used in Ancient Israel as signals in war, which is the same in Revelations, each trumpet signals the next stage of God's war plan. But a very important piece you are missing, is Jesus' words himself.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

"Immediately after the tribulation …..Jesus shall send his angel with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect". Very clear, I do not think there is any room for debate. "Immediately after the tribulation", so we know exactly when Jesus is coming. "With a great sound of a trumpet", so we know the seventh trumpet speaking of Jesus return in Revelations is exactly how Jesus explains his coming in his own words in Matthew. "They shall gather together his elect", and we know exactly when the Christians will be gathered.

 

[Davy]

I know a lot of people believe the 7th trump is the last trump but I think they err from a matter of perspective. According to Zech. 9:14 - "And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south." I believe this to be the prophetic last trumpet, one that God Himself blows, not an angel as in the 7th trump.

The blowing of the trumpet in ancient Israel had three primary functions. The first was to call a solemn assembly, the second, when Israel under Divine direction was to go to war and the third was at the coronation of a new king. There are two major themes associated with The Day of the Lord. The first is deliverance of the righteous and the second is the judgment of the wicked. In connection with His Second Coming, Jesus will first call His own to Himself, the Rapture, and then will go to war against His enemies, concluding with His Coronation as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

The reason why the "last trump" Apostle Paul mentioned in 1 Cor.15 is the same one in 1 Thess.4 is because that is the time when asleep saints are resurrected...

1 Cor 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV

1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

 

[Naomi25]

Then why don't you do that in anticipation for the Second Coming of Christ. Or are you saying He can't come right now?

Stranger

Wow...missing the humor, much?
Okay, stepping right past it...sure he can come at any second. I hope he does. I long for it. You have no idea how much I do. But I'm not sure gazing into the sky is what he'd have us do, yeah? Probably more along the lines of living our lives for him and for others up until that time?

 

[Stranger]

Wow...missing the humor, much?
Okay, stepping right past it...sure he can come at any second. I hope he does. I long for it. You have no idea how much I do. But I'm not sure gazing into the sky is what he'd have us do, yeah? Probably more along the lines of living our lives for him and for others up until that time?

Oh, He can come at any second? Are you munching on your popcorn in anticipation? You hope he comes as you sit with a mouthful of popcorn? OK.

Are you going to offer Him some of your popcorn, if He comes, as you wait and watch?

Stranger

 

[farouk]

We haven't escaped all that's taking place now so maybe we need to pray more. From what I can see, the world is becoming uninhabitable for Christians. There is shock after shock. I have a hard time reading the news.

It's good to keep looking up (Hebrews 12.2; 1 Corinthians 11.26).

As the hymnwriter says:

'..and the things of earth will grow strangely dim
In the light of His glory and grace.'

 

[Trekson]

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

If Jesus sounds the Trumpet after or along with the seventh angel, it does not really disprove or prove anything. But if you did look at the verse closer it says "the Lord...with a shout", then "voice of the archangel", and "with the trump of God". It does not say God will blow the trump, it only says it is God's trumpet, which would suggest his instruction/power which the angel is sharing with the world as they are his messengers. But the verse shows that 3 sounds are being made by Jesus' shout, voice of the archangel, and a trump of God all at the same time. And yes trumpets are used in Ancient Israel as signals in war, which is the same in Revelations, each trumpet signals the next stage of God's war plan. But a very important piece you are missing, is Jesus' words himself.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

"Immediately after the tribulation …..Jesus shall send his angel with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect". Very clear, I do not think there is any room for debate. "Immediately after the tribulation", so we know exactly when Jesus is coming. "With a great sound of a trumpet", so we know the seventh trumpet speaking of Jesus return in Revelations is exactly how Jesus explains his coming in his own words in Matthew. "They shall gather together his elect", and we know exactly when the Christians will be gathered.

You're right but, imo, it's only a matter of knowing what trib He is talking about. Since there is no seven year trib mentioned in scripture, it's not at the end of the 70th week. Jesus does mention "great" tribulation which is something altogether different. I think Rev. 12:17 is a good picture of when it begins, that it concerns the church and will be shortened for our sakes as Jesus promised.

 

[Mal'ak]

You're right but, imo, it's only a matter of knowing what trib He is talking about. Since there is no seven year trib mentioned in scripture, it's not at the end of the 70th week. Jesus does mention "great" tribulation which is something altogether different. I think Rev. 12:17 is a good picture of when it begins, that it concerns the church and will be shortened for our sakes as Jesus promised.

There is only one tribulation, there is only one end times...you can not end time twice, because it would already be ended the first time. The made up numbers of people that use flesh logic to "decode" the bible with 70th weeks and what not in not Biblical. No one knows when the end times will happen and no one knows how long it will last, God will tell each angel to sound when he wants to tell them and when all seven are sounded is when Jesus returns. I can only suggest not to chase rabbits down rabbit holes to wonder land, and keep to the guidance of the Holy Spirit of what is revealed in the Word of God by him alone. But that is only friendly Christian advice, your path is your own to walk.

 

[Naomi25]

Oh, He can come at any second? Are you munching on your popcorn in anticipation? You hope he comes as you sit with a mouthful of popcorn? OK.

Are you going to offer Him some of your popcorn, if He comes, as you wait and watch?

Stranger

Did you perhaps get out of the wrong side of bed this morning? Or do you just naturally miss the point, and swing right past sarcasm into snarkiness?
The popcorn was in reference to seeing an actual escape pod...you know, from a space ship. So, its not going to happen. The whole thing was tongue in cheek, in case you (rather obviously) missed it.
But my next post, about the coming of Christ, was quite serious, and did not mention popcorn at all. In fact, it did not mention sitting around on our thumbs while we waited for this 'any moment' event. So, either you didn't read it or are just using my first post to have a poke at me, in which case; grow up.

 

[Stranger]

Did you perhaps get out of the wrong side of bed this morning? Or do you just naturally miss the point, and swing right past sarcasm into snarkiness?
The popcorn was in reference to seeing an actual escape pod...you know, from a space ship. So, its not going to happen. The whole thing was tongue in cheek, in case you (rather obviously) missed it.
But my next post, about the coming of Christ, was quite serious, and did not mention popcorn at all. In fact, it did not mention sitting around on our thumbs while we waited for this 'any moment' event. So, either you didn't read it or are just using my first post to have a poke at me, in which case; grow up.

Well, when Christ returns the second time, will it not be to rescue those in tribulation? Will it not be to offer an escape for His people on earth. After all He did say He would come before the final end of those days for the elects sake. (Matt. 24:22)

So, if you want to view the Rapture as something to sit waiting with cheeks full of popcorn, why don't you sit with your cheeks full of popcorn waiting for the Second Coming. I mean, if it could come at any moment, shouldn't you be doing that which you like to visualize those who anticipate the Rapture.

Unless of course you don't really believe the Second Coming could occur at any moment. If not, why not. If not, why watch?

Stranger

 

[Naomi25]

Well, when Christ returns the second time, will it not be to rescue those in tribulation? Will it not be to offer an escape for His people on earth. After all He did say He would come before the final end of those days for the elects sake. (Matt. 24:22)

So, if you want to view the Rapture as something to sit waiting with cheeks full of popcorn, why don't you sit with your cheeks full of popcorn waiting for the Second Coming. I mean, if it could come at any moment, shouldn't you be doing that which you like to visualize those who anticipate the Rapture.

Unless of course you don't really believe the Second Coming could occur at any moment. If not, why not. If not, why watch?

Stranger

Again! With the NOT reading of what I said. I said I do NOT think one should be sitting around waiting for his return, idle. With or without popcorn. The popcorn was in regards to the escape hatch, man, not Christ's return. The popcorn doesn't matter...let it go, it's clearly too much for you and has pushed you over the edge. How about sneaking back a few posts and actually reading what I wrote before posting again...save yourself further embarrassement.

 

[Stranger]

Again! With the NOT reading of what I said. I said I do NOT think one should be sitting around waiting for his return, idle. With or without popcorn. The popcorn was in regards to the escape hatch, man, not Christ's return. The popcorn doesn't matter...let it go, it's clearly too much for you and has pushed you over the edge. How about sneaking back a few posts and actually reading what I wrote before posting again...save yourself further embarrassement.

Why is not Christ's Second Coming considered an escape hatch? He cut short the time of tribulation for the elects sake. Will they be wrong in anticipating Christ's return in order to save them from the hell they are going through? Sounds silly doesn't it....Christ returning to deliver His people from tribulation.

If you believe the Second Coming could occur at any moment, then you should get some popcorn and wait. If Christ could not come until certain other things occur, then you don't believe He could come at any moment. Thus you don't need your popcorn.

Where do you and others dream up this lie that those who believe in the Rapture believe we are to just sit around idle? You create your strawman, fill him full of popcorn, then go on your mocking spree. But you mock yourselves if you believe the Second Coming could occur at any time and so are to watch.

Stranger

 

[Soverign Grace]

It's good to keep looking up (Hebrews 12.2; 1 Corinthians 11.26).

As the hymnwriter says:

'..and the things of earth will grow strangely dim
In the light of His glory and grace.'

I love that hymn.

 

[Naomi25]

Why is not Christ's Second Coming considered an escape hatch? He cut short the time of tribulation for the elects sake. Will they be wrong in anticipating Christ's return in order to save them from the hell they are going through? Sounds silly doesn't it....Christ returning to deliver His people from tribulation.

Quite apart from the fact that this is worlds apart from the 'escape hatch' I was talking about, which you are fully aware of at this point, at what time in human history, or at what "coming" of Christ, will he NOT be rescuing someone from tribulation?
If you are correct and there is a pretribulation rapture, then there will be Christians in the middle east, africa and north korea who will be raptured out of tribulation. If Christ's second coming is only a single event at the end of this age, he will most certainly rescue us from tribulation then as well. So...all in all...of course. I never said otherwise? Did I? Please show me where...

If you believe the Second Coming could occur at any moment, then you should get some popcorn and wait. If Christ could not come until certain other things occur, then you don't believe He could come at any moment. Thus you don't need your popcorn.

Still holding onto that popcorn?

Where do you and others dream up this lie that those who believe in the Rapture believe we are to just sit around idle? You create your strawman, fill him full of popcorn, then go on your mocking spree. But you mock yourselves if you believe the Second Coming could occur at any time and so are to watch.

Stranger

Where have I ever said Dispensationalists are idle in their wait? Please provide an example? In point of fact I said not that long ago, to farouk, I believe it was, that one of the things that I admired about Dispensationalists was their passion in telling people about Jesus AS THEY WAITED. I jumped onto the END of a thread and read an entertaining post about watching the sky for an escape pod and thought how funny it would be if we could know if an ACTUAL escape pod would rocket through the night sky at some point, just like the descending Chinese space station last year. That was fun to watch.
So...if you are perhaps overly sensitive about the subject and have perhaps leapt to massive conclusions about my intentions and ideas...that's not really my fault.

 

[Stranger]

Quite apart from the fact that this is worlds apart from the 'escape hatch' I was talking about, which you are fully aware of at this point, at what time in human history, or at what "coming" of Christ, will he NOT be rescuing someone from tribulation?
If you are correct and there is a pretribulation rapture, then there will be Christians in the middle east, africa and north korea who will be raptured out of tribulation. If Christ's second coming is only a single event at the end of this age, he will most certainly rescue us from tribulation then as well. So...all in all...of course. I never said otherwise? Did I? Please show me where...


Still holding onto that popcorn?



Where have I ever said Dispensationalists are idle in their wait? Please provide an example? In point of fact I said not that long ago, to farouk, I believe it was, that one of the things that I admired about Dispensationalists was their passion in telling people about Jesus AS THEY WAITED. I jumped onto the END of a thread and read an entertaining post about watching the sky for an escape pod and thought how funny it would be if we could know if an ACTUAL escape pod would rocket through the night sky at some point, just like the descending Chinese space station last year. That was fun to watch.
So...if you are perhaps overly sensitive about the subject and have perhaps leapt to massive conclusions about my intentions and ideas...that's not really my fault.

No, the popcorn is yours and others who like to mock those who hold to the Rapture with a strawman,.

See your post #(176). You said we are not to be sitting around idle. Who are your referring to if not those who hold to the Rapture?

It is not being overly sensitive. It is showing the hypocrisy of your and others strawman, and mockery, built on a lie.

Stranger