bbyrd009
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Get Rapture Ready or will you be be left Behind?
- Thread starter GISMYS_7
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Davy
Well-Known Member
That may be what you've been wrongly taught to think, but it's not what the Matt.24 and Mark 13 chapters show. I find that many brethren don't really understand just what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4. And no, we don't need to go to John 14 to find this out, but stay with 1 Thess.4 and both the Matt.24 and Mark 13 versions of Christ's Olivet discourse in comparison.
I already showed this in the above thread with the Matt.24 and Mark 13 evidence, but here it is again...
Matt 24:31
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
You failed to read the difference between those two Scriptures.
In the Matthew 24 version it's about the saints being gathered "from one end of heaven to the other" on that day. But in the Mark 13 version it's about the saints being gathered "from the uttermost part of the earth".
Apostle Paul taught about those two different groups of saints gathered at the same time also:
1 Thess 4:13-15
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
KJV
That above 1 Thess.4 Scripture is about the "asleep" saints which Paul said Jesus will bring with Him. Those are the ones of Matt.24:31 gathered "from one end of heaven to the other".
Those are the saints that have already died. And Paul shows there that we who are alive and remain (i.e., on the earth) until Christ's coming will not 'precede' those asleep saints (the KJV word "prevent" there actually means 'precede' in the Greek). It means the asleep saints are resurrected first by Jesus and He brings them with Him when He comes, as shown also in a later verse here.
1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
The "dead in Christ shall rise first" is about the resurrection on the day of Jesus' coming. That's about the "asleep" saints He brings with Him from... one end of Heaven to the other.
Verse 17 is about the gathering of the saints from the earth that are still alive on that day, which the KJV uses the phrase "caught up". Those are the ones of Mark 13:27 being gathered "from the uttermost part of the earth."
Thus the Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 Scripture is a direct parallel to the 1 Thessalonians 4 events of the Church being gathered to Christ Jesus when He comes. I cannot help it if you've been taught something different from men's doctrines that does not align with those Scriptures.
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That is not the point. Of course it hasn't come yet.
In your post #50 you said the 70th week, meaning the 7 years, will conclude when Christ returns at armageddon. A time which you have associated with the great tribulation. Then in your post # 109, you say the majority of the 70th week is judgment upon the earth.
But then you whine and moan about the tribulation and judgement not being the same.
So, again I ask, concerning your confused eschatology, where does the 7 years of the 490 years go?
Stranger
I never said or implied that the GT had anything to do with Armageddon, they would be, guesstimated about 4 years apart, imo.
Well, if the 7 year or 70th week concludes at Armageddon, that puts your 3 and 1/2 years at the end of Armageddon also, which you say is the Great Tribulation. Where else are you going to put the Great Tribulation. It becomes the last half of the 7 years of judgement which is called the Tribulation, which you don't like.
Stranger
Since Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are all about the Olivet Discourse, you cannot say that Matthew is about one thing and Mark about something else. They have simply expressed themselves differently, and Luke does not even mention the gathering of the elect (the Jewish believing remnant).
In any event, you are rather confused because you are trying to impose a man-made idea on Scripture. It is a divine necessity that the Rapture precede the Second Coming of Christ by at least 7 years. Christ must first come FOR His saints before He comes WITH His saints after the Marriage of the Lamb.
I recognize what you are claiming, and do not agree with your understanding.
By your understanding, you have to be VOID of consideration of several FACTS.
Like...TIMING.
Like...What APPLIES to WHOM, and WHEN, and WHY.
I already said...
The English word Rapture has the same meaning of the Greek word Harpazo, which both words mean "caught up", which is in Scripture.
If you want to disagree with THAT ^, say so, otherwise, try sticking to the POINT of your argument...
Which IS...about The TIMING, of Christ's Church being "CAUGHT UP"....and WHO is Christ's Church....and WHEN....and WHY.
WHAT is Converted?
Answer; Those WHO become saved and born again (IN CHRIST),
BEFORE "THEIR" PHYSICAL DEATH.
BEFORE "Jesus" Descends FROM Heaven.
WHAT does a CONVERSION DO?
Answer; (among other things) IT "JUSTIFIES" a man "TO BE" "RESURRECTED" and "REDEEMED".
WHO is Christ's CHURCH ?
Answer; Those WHO become Converted.
WHAT is the PURPOSE of Jesus Descending FROM Heaven "TO" the CLOUDS?
Answer: TO "CATCH UP" TO HIM, HIS CHURCH.
WHEN?
BEFORE "GODS" Tribulation "UPON" the Earth.
WHY? Because Christ's Church IS NOT APPOINTED TO BE SUBJECT TO "Gods Tribulation...wrath or revenge.
WHY NOT? BECAUSE, Gods Tribulation IS...
Against the Earth, and the people OF the Earth, "FOR" remaing AGAINST CHRIST...
IOW, "FOR" people of the EARTH FOR "NOT",
Believing IN CHRIST JESUS, and having BECOME "CONVERTED".
WHICH RESULTS...IN THOSE people, BEING MADE SUBJECT TO: Gods Wrath....anger, disappointment.
Continued.
Continued...Davy
The POINT of Christ Jesus' descent from Heaven TO the Clouds, IS SPECIFICALLY to "catch up" TO HIM, "HIS CHURCH"...
All men (Gentile or Jew) "WHO";
Became Converted, BY FAITH...
BEFORE the DAY, The Lord, "DESCENDS" FROM HEAVEN.
The FIRST resurrection AND redemption...
APPLIES to Christ Jesus (He is the FIRST FRUITS).
NOW - any OTHER resurrections AND redemptions APPLIES....TO MANKIND.
THE FIRST...resurrection AND redemption that APPLIES .... TO MANKIND....
IS: Christ's Church...
WHEN; When Jesus descends FROM HEAVEN TO the CLOUDS. Pre-TRIBULATION.
WHY; Because "THOSE MEN" are "ALREADY" "Converted"......AND JUSTIFIED.
SO; IN the Clouds, WILL BE "Jesus" and "His Church of JUSTIFIED", (that He "caught up" TO HIM).
What ABOUT the "REST" of the PEOPLE alive "ON" the EARTH? AND "bodily dead" in their "graves" ? (DURING the Tribulation).
FIRST...those still ALIVE.
ANY MAN...WHO while alive, during the Tribulation....WHO comes to belief "IN Christ Jesus"......<---- "THEY" also BECOME "Converted".
Do they "one by one" become "caught up" to the Clouds with Jesus? No.
"THEY"....BECOME "SAVED"...(their souls SAVED...and Kept on earth, TOGETHER, "under the ALTAR of God).
"THEY"....Their BODIES, become KILLED, (maybe buried, or simply left lying wherever).
DURING the Tribulation...(many things are happening at the same time, pursuant to:
Heavenly Angels, Fallen angels, Men believers in God, Men believers in God and Christ, Men who reject God, Men who reject God and Christ)....You have to FOLLOW THE ORDER..
OF WHICH MEN DO WHAT, and WHEN....
WHICH "then REVEALS"...
WHAT GOD DOES in "RESPONSE" to the men, and WHEN.
Men WHO become Converted "BEFORE" Jesus' descent FROM Heaven TO the Clouds...
ARE "already" prepared and justified "TO BE CAUGHT UP"....and THUS..."ARE" "caught up"....AT the "TIME" Jesus Descends From Heaven.
OTHER men WHO, "AFTER Jesus' descent FROM Heaven TO the CLOUDS"....missed out being "resurrected and redeemed"...
AT THAT TIME!
Men WHO, "missed out being resurrected and redeemed "....AT "THAT" TIMING, of the FIRST, resurrection and redeeming....(of mankind)...
HAVE "THEIR" opportunity....TO BECOME "CONVERTED"..."DURING" the Tribulation.
FOR THOSE MEN ^^, still Remaing ON EARTH, the Lord SENDS, (to them FOR THEIR BENEFIT).... SPECIFIC, "sealed men"...TO;
Preach """Christ Jesus"""...TO THE remaining mens EARS...."so they might CHOOSE TO BECOME CONVERTED"
What "Specific" sealed MEN?
Two - Witness, who will preach; JESUS.
.........1,260 days.
..........They have Power to kill anyone who
..........who tries to stop their preaching.
..........At the end of the days of their
..........preaching;
..........they will be killed and their dead body
..........lie in the streets for 3 days...then
..........THEY shall be resurrected and
..........redeemed.
144,000 - Virgin Jews, 12,000 each from the
...........Twelve Tribes will preach: JESUS.
And lastly...One of the Lords Holy Angels, shall Preach JESUS, TO ALL earths remaining inhabitants...
The LAST OPPORTUNITY for ANY remaining men ON THE EARTH, (WHO), have NOT pledged their "allegience" to "another"; ie "THE BEAST"...(by having AGREED to "TAKE" his MARK (his SEAL, of allegience TO him)...
The holy angel, spreads the GOSPEL OF JESUS to ALL of mankind....and those NOT IN CHRIST....have their OPPORTUNITY to "ELECT TO CHOOSE "Conversion" BY Christ Jesus..."OR NOT".
ALL THOSE MEN ^^ CHOOSING Christ JESUS, "DURING" the TRIBULATION..."SHALL BE" redeemed.....TOGETHER.
^^ ALL TOGETHER, "THEIR" Bodies shall lay DEAD on the Earth...and "THEIR" souls...
REDEEMED..."UP TO HEAVEN", with God.
(NOTE...their BODIES...have NOT YET, been RESURRECTED) !
SO FAR....
IN THE TIMING....and ORDER...
The Converted IN CHRIST, (before) Christs descends to the Clouds...are with Jesus, IN THE clouds...Redeemed...AND Resurrected;
Body & soul & spirit. (Before Gods Tribulation)
AND SO FAR...
Other men DURING the Tribulation, HAVE BECOME CONVeRTED....
Their SOULS SAVED, and WITH God in Heaven.
Their bodies Not yet resurrected.
MEN NOW, "remaining" ON EARTH...ARE:
1) A FEW "mortals"...WITHOUT the "BEASTS MARK" .... BUT WHO DID NOT "MAKE" the Timing of "CONVERSION" DURING the "FIRST HALF" of Gods Tribulation"...
2) AND ALL Other "mortal" men....WHO...
"Pledged their allegiance WITH the BEAST", and THUS, expressly REJECTED GOD and CHRIST.
SO wHAt ABOUT those TWO "groups"?
The mortals withOUT the Beasts mark, WILL BE preserved, (not KILLED), come to BELIEF, AND REMAIN MORTAL....
THEY have been "preserved" TO re-populate the Earth, DURING Christ Jesus' 1,000 Year resign.
The other group of mortals, WITH the Beasts Mark...SHALL be subject to:
Gods "great WRATH"...
They shall be Subject TO: torments of Disease, Disaster, Famine, (utter fear and discomfort)...
Since we all KNOW, (overcoming fear and discomfort), can ONLY BE achieved, to HAVE (no fear, and have comfort) IS by and through Christ Jesus.....
Well.....THEY do NOT have Christ Jesus IN them...THUS...THEY SHALL HAVE (fear and Discomfort)...which simply is called TORMENTS. <--- Gods WRATH upon THEM.
"They" cause men IN Christ to be...unjustly treated, beaten, mocked, and killed....
SO ALSO...GOD SHALL EFFECT "JUSTICE" upon THEM....and TREAT THEM, THE SAME WAY, "THEY" treated "men IN Christ".
God pours out HIS OWN INDIGNAtION, upon "THEM"....as "THEY" did toward MEN in Christ Jesus....<---- THAT IS CALLED "REVENGE".
And God already Clearly revealed...
"VENGENCE" is His, and will be Accomplished, BY Him.
Before the Tribulation BEGINS...reveals...
The Christ's Church Being...
Redeemed........"AND" ..bodily Resurrected.
TO THE CLOUDS, (when Jesus descends FROM Heaven, TO the CLOUDS)
During the Tribulation.....reveals...
Men Converting to Christ...they BEING...
Bodily Killed.....NOT "bodily Resurrected".
Body remaining ON EARTH.
Soul Saved...Soul being redeemed to heaven.
NOW....CONSIDER...THE OT SAINTS.
Their Bodies Died, and were BURIED.
Their SOUL was SAVED...
((""AND "their souls" waited under the alter" to be Redeemed up to Heaven"")) ?????
No. "THEIR SOULS, went to the COMFORT SIDE OF HELL"....and "WAITED TO BE REDEEMED UP TO HEAVEN"...
WAITED FOR WHAT?
"WAITED" for the "FIRST FRUITS" SOUL to be IN HELL....and then LEAVE HELL"...
Hummm...WHO WOULD THE FIRST Fruits BE?
Uh...Jesus.
And DID Jesus' SOUL depart His DEAD BODY, and GO TO HELL and THEN "LEAVE" Hell?
Uh...YES. Jesus fulfilled that prophecy.
And since the DAY, Jesus's SOUL LeFT Hell, so ALSO, "WAS" the OT saved souls, WAITING in Hell, ABLE TO LEAVE HELL, and GO TO HEAVEN.
(AND thereafter, EVERY man, IN Christ, since THAT TIME, Who bodily dies...THEIR body is buried, and THEIR SOUL "goes to Heaven.".)
POINT BEING......ONCE the Tribulation of God, is ENDING...
JESUS RETURNS TO EARTH. AND? WHAT?
FINISHES....
the DIVISION OF (resurrection)
"OF" MANKIND.
From Every corner of the EARTH, He "RESURRECTS" the BODIES of MEN...
OF the OT, mens BODIES, that were SAVED...
To the mens BODIES, "WHO" became IN Christ, DURING the First half OF the Tribulation...
And Jesus HAS "HIS REWARD WITH HIM"....FOR "THOSE DEAD BODIES BEING RESURRECTED".....WHAT IS "THE REWARD" ?
"THEIR SAVED SOUL", "THEIR QUICKENED SPIRIT"......with Forever Life, that will be imparted INTO....their BODIES being RAISED IN GLORY...(ie ALSO FOREVER LIFE IN THEIR BODY).
Thus..."^^^THEY"....become WHOLLY WHOLE.....SAME AS..."THOSE MEN" who were
MADE "WHOLLY WHOLE"...(body, soul, & spriit) IN CHRIST...
BEFORE Gods TRIBULATION BEGAN.
Those "IN CHRIST"...BEFORE Gods Tribulation BEGINS....
Are ALREADY JUSTIFIED TO BE...
""SOUL" REDEEMED............
"AND"....
""BODY" RESURRECTED".
WHEN...."Jesus Descends TO THE CLOUDS."
Those WHO COME INTO CHRIST....DURING Gods Tribulation....Are "Justified for their SOULS to be "redeemed"........
and
"THEIR BODIES" TO BE "RESURRECTED" at the END of the TRIBULATION...
WHEN Jesus.."RETURNS TO EARTH"..
You can IGNORE and DISMISS the ORDER of the FACTS....and ARGUE..."WITHOUT" consideration OF THE FULL FACTS...
Not a problem for me. It doesn't affect me, when another is content with half truths and wants to argue on that basis.
It simply makes your full disclosure moot...and your accusations moot...and your understanding moot. That affects you, not me.
Glory to God,
Taken
The POINT of Christ Jesus' descent from Heaven TO the Clouds, IS SPECIFICALLY to "catch up" TO HIM, "HIS CHURCH"...
All men (Gentile or Jew) "WHO";
Became Converted, BY FAITH...
BEFORE the DAY, The Lord, "DESCENDS" FROM HEAVEN.
The FIRST resurrection AND redemption...
APPLIES to Christ Jesus (He is the FIRST FRUITS).
NOW - any OTHER resurrections AND redemptions APPLIES....TO MANKIND.
THE FIRST...resurrection AND redemption that APPLIES .... TO MANKIND....
IS: Christ's Church...
WHEN; When Jesus descends FROM HEAVEN TO the CLOUDS. Pre-TRIBULATION.
WHY; Because "THOSE MEN" are "ALREADY" "Converted"......AND JUSTIFIED.
SO; IN the Clouds, WILL BE "Jesus" and "His Church of JUSTIFIED", (that He "caught up" TO HIM).
What ABOUT the "REST" of the PEOPLE alive "ON" the EARTH? AND "bodily dead" in their "graves" ? (DURING the Tribulation).
FIRST...those still ALIVE.
ANY MAN...WHO while alive, during the Tribulation....WHO comes to belief "IN Christ Jesus"......<---- "THEY" also BECOME "Converted".
Do they "one by one" become "caught up" to the Clouds with Jesus? No.
"THEY"....BECOME "SAVED"...(their souls SAVED...and Kept on earth, TOGETHER, "under the ALTAR of God).
"THEY"....Their BODIES, become KILLED, (maybe buried, or simply left lying wherever).
DURING the Tribulation...(many things are happening at the same time, pursuant to:
Heavenly Angels, Fallen angels, Men believers in God, Men believers in God and Christ, Men who reject God, Men who reject God and Christ)....You have to FOLLOW THE ORDER..
OF WHICH MEN DO WHAT, and WHEN....
WHICH "then REVEALS"...
WHAT GOD DOES in "RESPONSE" to the men, and WHEN.
Men WHO become Converted "BEFORE" Jesus' descent FROM Heaven TO the Clouds...
ARE "already" prepared and justified "TO BE CAUGHT UP"....and THUS..."ARE" "caught up"....AT the "TIME" Jesus Descends From Heaven.
OTHER men WHO, "AFTER Jesus' descent FROM Heaven TO the CLOUDS"....missed out being "resurrected and redeemed"...
AT THAT TIME!
Men WHO, "missed out being resurrected and redeemed "....AT "THAT" TIMING, of the FIRST, resurrection and redeeming....(of mankind)...
HAVE "THEIR" opportunity....TO BECOME "CONVERTED"..."DURING" the Tribulation.
FOR THOSE MEN ^^, still Remaing ON EARTH, the Lord SENDS, (to them FOR THEIR BENEFIT).... SPECIFIC, "sealed men"...TO;
Preach """Christ Jesus"""...TO THE remaining mens EARS...."so they might CHOOSE TO BECOME CONVERTED"
What "Specific" sealed MEN?
Two - Witness, who will preach; JESUS.
.........1,260 days.
..........They have Power to kill anyone who
..........who tries to stop their preaching.
..........At the end of the days of their
..........preaching;
..........they will be killed and their dead body
..........lie in the streets for 3 days...then
..........THEY shall be resurrected and
..........redeemed.
144,000 - Virgin Jews, 12,000 each from the
...........Twelve Tribes will preach: JESUS.
And lastly...One of the Lords Holy Angels, shall Preach JESUS, TO ALL earths remaining inhabitants...
The LAST OPPORTUNITY for ANY remaining men ON THE EARTH, (WHO), have NOT pledged their "allegience" to "another"; ie "THE BEAST"...(by having AGREED to "TAKE" his MARK (his SEAL, of allegience TO him)...
The holy angel, spreads the GOSPEL OF JESUS to ALL of mankind....and those NOT IN CHRIST....have their OPPORTUNITY to "ELECT TO CHOOSE "Conversion" BY Christ Jesus..."OR NOT".
ALL THOSE MEN ^^ CHOOSING Christ JESUS, "DURING" the TRIBULATION..."SHALL BE" redeemed.....TOGETHER.
^^ ALL TOGETHER, "THEIR" Bodies shall lay DEAD on the Earth...and "THEIR" souls...
REDEEMED..."UP TO HEAVEN", with God.
(NOTE...their BODIES...have NOT YET, been RESURRECTED) !
SO FAR....
IN THE TIMING....and ORDER...
The Converted IN CHRIST, (before) Christs descends to the Clouds...are with Jesus, IN THE clouds...Redeemed...AND Resurrected;
Body & soul & spirit. (Before Gods Tribulation)
AND SO FAR...
Other men DURING the Tribulation, HAVE BECOME CONVeRTED....
Their SOULS SAVED, and WITH God in Heaven.
Their bodies Not yet resurrected.
MEN NOW, "remaining" ON EARTH...ARE:
1) A FEW "mortals"...WITHOUT the "BEASTS MARK" .... BUT WHO DID NOT "MAKE" the Timing of "CONVERSION" DURING the "FIRST HALF" of Gods Tribulation"...
2) AND ALL Other "mortal" men....WHO...
"Pledged their allegiance WITH the BEAST", and THUS, expressly REJECTED GOD and CHRIST.
SO wHAt ABOUT those TWO "groups"?
The mortals withOUT the Beasts mark, WILL BE preserved, (not KILLED), come to BELIEF, AND REMAIN MORTAL....
THEY have been "preserved" TO re-populate the Earth, DURING Christ Jesus' 1,000 Year resign.
The other group of mortals, WITH the Beasts Mark...SHALL be subject to:
Gods "great WRATH"...
They shall be Subject TO: torments of Disease, Disaster, Famine, (utter fear and discomfort)...
Since we all KNOW, (overcoming fear and discomfort), can ONLY BE achieved, to HAVE (no fear, and have comfort) IS by and through Christ Jesus.....
Well.....THEY do NOT have Christ Jesus IN them...THUS...THEY SHALL HAVE (fear and Discomfort)...which simply is called TORMENTS. <--- Gods WRATH upon THEM.
"They" cause men IN Christ to be...unjustly treated, beaten, mocked, and killed....
SO ALSO...GOD SHALL EFFECT "JUSTICE" upon THEM....and TREAT THEM, THE SAME WAY, "THEY" treated "men IN Christ".
God pours out HIS OWN INDIGNAtION, upon "THEM"....as "THEY" did toward MEN in Christ Jesus....<---- THAT IS CALLED "REVENGE".
And God already Clearly revealed...
"VENGENCE" is His, and will be Accomplished, BY Him.
Before the Tribulation BEGINS...reveals...
The Christ's Church Being...
Redeemed........"AND" ..bodily Resurrected.
TO THE CLOUDS, (when Jesus descends FROM Heaven, TO the CLOUDS)
During the Tribulation.....reveals...
Men Converting to Christ...they BEING...
Bodily Killed.....NOT "bodily Resurrected".
Body remaining ON EARTH.
Soul Saved...Soul being redeemed to heaven.
NOW....CONSIDER...THE OT SAINTS.
Their Bodies Died, and were BURIED.
Their SOUL was SAVED...
((""AND "their souls" waited under the alter" to be Redeemed up to Heaven"")) ?????
No. "THEIR SOULS, went to the COMFORT SIDE OF HELL"....and "WAITED TO BE REDEEMED UP TO HEAVEN"...
WAITED FOR WHAT?
"WAITED" for the "FIRST FRUITS" SOUL to be IN HELL....and then LEAVE HELL"...
Hummm...WHO WOULD THE FIRST Fruits BE?
Uh...Jesus.
And DID Jesus' SOUL depart His DEAD BODY, and GO TO HELL and THEN "LEAVE" Hell?
Uh...YES. Jesus fulfilled that prophecy.
And since the DAY, Jesus's SOUL LeFT Hell, so ALSO, "WAS" the OT saved souls, WAITING in Hell, ABLE TO LEAVE HELL, and GO TO HEAVEN.
(AND thereafter, EVERY man, IN Christ, since THAT TIME, Who bodily dies...THEIR body is buried, and THEIR SOUL "goes to Heaven.".)
POINT BEING......ONCE the Tribulation of God, is ENDING...
JESUS RETURNS TO EARTH. AND? WHAT?
FINISHES....
the DIVISION OF (resurrection)
"OF" MANKIND.
From Every corner of the EARTH, He "RESURRECTS" the BODIES of MEN...
OF the OT, mens BODIES, that were SAVED...
To the mens BODIES, "WHO" became IN Christ, DURING the First half OF the Tribulation...
And Jesus HAS "HIS REWARD WITH HIM"....FOR "THOSE DEAD BODIES BEING RESURRECTED".....WHAT IS "THE REWARD" ?
"THEIR SAVED SOUL", "THEIR QUICKENED SPIRIT"......with Forever Life, that will be imparted INTO....their BODIES being RAISED IN GLORY...(ie ALSO FOREVER LIFE IN THEIR BODY).
Thus..."^^^THEY"....become WHOLLY WHOLE.....SAME AS..."THOSE MEN" who were
MADE "WHOLLY WHOLE"...(body, soul, & spriit) IN CHRIST...
BEFORE Gods TRIBULATION BEGAN.
Those "IN CHRIST"...BEFORE Gods Tribulation BEGINS....
Are ALREADY JUSTIFIED TO BE...
""SOUL" REDEEMED............
"AND"....
""BODY" RESURRECTED".
WHEN...."Jesus Descends TO THE CLOUDS."
Those WHO COME INTO CHRIST....DURING Gods Tribulation....Are "Justified for their SOULS to be "redeemed"........
and
"THEIR BODIES" TO BE "RESURRECTED" at the END of the TRIBULATION...
WHEN Jesus.."RETURNS TO EARTH"..
You can IGNORE and DISMISS the ORDER of the FACTS....and ARGUE..."WITHOUT" consideration OF THE FULL FACTS...
Not a problem for me. It doesn't affect me, when another is content with half truths and wants to argue on that basis.
It simply makes your full disclosure moot...and your accusations moot...and your understanding moot. That affects you, not me.
Glory to God,
Taken
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Davy
Well-Known Member
It's faulty to do that kind of reasoning, especially since God's Word often contains more info on a matter between different Books.
That is what the difference in those two Matt.24:31 and Mark 13:27 Scriptures do, so just picking one example and saying the other one is saying the same exact thing is fallacy and even error in basic reading, especially since I have well shown in an above post the difference in the phrases I highlighted. Not only that, it shows one is not really interested in understanding all that God's written Word contains, and isn't there enough factions already started that favors one Scripture over the other just because of wanting to keep to their own traditions?
I'm actually doing the exact opposite of what you accuse me of. I brought out the difference between those two Scriptures, and showed why... those phrases are different because that teaching by our Lord Jesus of the gathering of the saints is the same teaching by Apostle Paul in the 1 Thessalonians 4 Scripture.
Your last statement shows you adhere to the pre-trib rapture theory of man. No wonder you deny what I've shown, since pre-trib denies that our Lord Jesus' teaching there is for His Church.
Davy
Well-Known Member
That Christ's coming to gather His Church is after the great tribulation, is not my doctrine. It is written (Matthew 24:29-31). Jesus made a direct statement there showing His return and gathering of His Church "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...". If you don't care that He said that, then go to. Have a good trip.
LOL ...really? Get a q-tip. I said nothing about not caring about what is said in scripture.
It is YOUR claim I disagree with!
Can you point out EXACTLY where any of these Three verses mention the CHURCH...
That YOU say is Your verification that THE CHURCH is gathered at the END of the Tribulation....
Your supposed verifying verses DO NOT mention THE CHURCH!
Matt 24
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Glory to God,
Taken
Exactly. The Church is NOT in view in the Olivet Discourse. At is primarily about the temple, Jerusalem, Judea, and the Jews and the events leasing to the second coming of Christ. That is why the word *church(es)* is absent from Revelation 6-18.
Do you actually read what I write or are you jumping to conclusions based on a couple of words? I never said that the GT is 3 1/2 yrs. long, I think I distinctly said it wasn't. I think the GT is around yr. 2 or 3 (not a length of time) of the 70th week.
I gave you the posts that my questions were based on. They were #50 and #109.
Stranger
Maybe you'll have to write out your questions more clearly, Post #50 is a pretty clear summation and post #109 is clear as well so I'm really not sure what you're not understanding. Maybe this will help, I see Rev. as sequential.
Davy
Well-Known Member
No, you're not simply disagreeing with me; you are disagreeing with what Jesus plainly stated:
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
The doctrine of man called the pre-trib rapture you keep makes lies against what Jesus said there about His coming to gather His Church. And as I have shown in comparing the two Matt.24:31 and Mark 13:27 examples, He was teaching the same gathering event that Apostle Paul later taught in 1 Thessalonians 4.
The doctrine of men you follow tells you to be blind to what Jesus said there. Thus you're not a follower of Jesus, you're a follower of men.
The Pre-tribulation Rapture is not the doctrine of men but the truth of God. And it was presented by Christ BEFORE He was crucified, therefore it cannot be a 19th century invention (as falsely asserted by some).
JOHN 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Meaning: Don't connect the Tribulation to what I am saying
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Meaning: Christ promises a home in Heaven to every believer
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Meaning: The Lord will come personally for His Bride at the Rapture
Davy
Well-Known Member
No, it's a doctrine of men, and was first preached in 1830's Great Britain in the Church. John Darby got the idea from Edward Irving. And Cyrus Scofield brought the doctrine to the Americas. Just because something is popular does not make it true.
That fact of the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture where Jesus emphatically revealed His coming to gather the Church is immediately after the tribulation, should be heeded by those who claim Him as their Savior, as He was teaching the same event of His coming to gather His Church that Apostle Paul later taught in 1 Thessalonians 4. I cannot help if that evidence shows the pre-trib rapture doctrine to be a lie from men's doctrines. And I am not going to get into arguments over revisionist history that some pre-trib scholars have tried to do in order to try and show how old the pre-trib rapture theory is. What Jesus said there in Matt.24:29-31 scraps their attempt at revisionist history of their theory.
And don't assume that I'm not familiar with the interpretations of Scripture that the pre-trib rapture theory teaches.
There is nothing there in John 14 that reverses the Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 Scripture about our Lord Jesus' return to this earth on the day of His coming. Nor does that change the order of His coming to gather His Church which He gave in His Olivet discourse which is the same thing Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4.
You won't understand this about those "mansions" of John 14, but here it is anyway for those interested. The Greek word for "mansions" there means 'abode'. And our Lord Jesus there linked those 'mansions' to The Father's house. Ezekiel 40 to 47 is where The Father's house is shown in detail, and it includes chambers for the priests where they are to live. And that house is shown existing on earth in the Ezekiel 47 chapter. Thus Jesus is not returning to gather His Church and go back to Heaven. He is going to descend to this earth while gathering His Church and all will go with Him to Jerusalem on earth, like Zechariah 14 shows.
1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV
Zech 14:3-7
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
KJV
I am EXPRESSLY disagreeing with you.
You made false charges. I have said NOTHING to disagree with this Scripture.
You made false charges. I have said NOTHING to disagree with this Scripture.
You have made false charges. I have said NOTHING to disagree with this Scripture.
Scripture shows WHAT YOU DO NOT CLAIM...
Matt is speaking as a Jew to Jews about Jews....Tribes, the Elect, their gathering together.
Paul is speaking as Gentile to Gentiles about Gentiles WHO are IN Christ.
What you have shown is you do not know or consider the FACTS, and attempt to BLURRRR the FACTS together.
Matthew & Mark were sent out to TEACH JEWS.
The CORRUPTION of Scripture you teach, is your own lack of understanding.
THE FALSE ACCUSATIONS you make, are based on your own Corruption of Scriptures.
Glory to God,
Taken
Davy
Well-Known Member
Again, no, you are disagreeing with the Matthew 24 Scripture that Jesus revealed His coming and gathering of His Church is after the tribulation:
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
That event of the gathering to Christ takes place "after that tribulation" like Jesus said. That is what you have denied. That Scripture is very plain, a direct statement from Lord Jesus.
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