Gifts of the Spirit
- Thread starter martinlawrencescott
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Oh BTW,
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Yes, he gave gifts to men, He also gave apostle to the church, and evangelists, and pastors, teachers, and the rest.. But, notice, the gifts are mentioned separately from the the others.
It is unfortunate that your stubborness blinds you from seeing this truth.
Verse. 4 Speaks of the Gifts (Manifestations - see verse 7)) of the Spirit.
Verse 5 Speaks of the Administrations of the Lord (the Son) referenced in Ephesians 4
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
These two verses are there to clarify the word ascended that Paul used. They are not there to separate the words "gave" as you say so that you can conveniently say that there are gifts to men and then Pastors and Teachers, etc. These particular gifts are not for all men as they are the result of His ascending on high. They were given for His church in order to bring the saints to maturity as stated in verses 12 & 13. I do not care whether you see these gifts as offices or not. The point is that they are gifts from The SON to His church. Because we are looking at gifts in the context of the Trinity.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers
Verse 6 Speaks of the Operations of God (The Father), referenced in Romans 12, who clearly works them "all in all" as He is no respector of persons.
Here Romans (12:1-6) mentions God 4 times and also says in verse 6: "Havings then gifts differing..." We then read of the 7 gifts from the Father.
Your difficulty in seeing this is because you probably do not believe the gifts are present today. The Gifts of the Godhead teaching would put a serious fly in that ointment and it takes quite an individual to admit that his theology may be wrong, especialy on a forum like this when everyone is reading our comments.
Anyways I've shared what the Lord has told me to on this subject. You are free to take it or leave. Makes no difference to me. Im done.
Again you ignore scripture that tells us that Christiansare dead to sin. You instead makestupid references to Paul’s life. Thenuse a child’s excuse such as; everyone else sins so that must make itright.
This is an indicator to me that your argumenit is not strong.. There is no stubbornness on my part. As you've may have noticed, I have addressed each of your issues. On the other hand you've not addressed mine. I presented the Greek grammar twice. It is not my opinion, or my interpretation. I did not make up the Greek language. This is a classic example of what you began saying to me about picking and choosing what we will believe. I've given you clear evidence not opinion, that your interpretation of 'he gave some apostles, evangelists, pastor teachers, etc. as gifts or offices is not allowed by the grammar. Paul chose the words, I' m sure he knew what they meant. You can ask anyone who has a basic understanding of Greek grammar and they can confirm this.
Now, you said it takes quite an individual to admit their theology may be wrong, on a forum. Well, I've done that. I have one goal, that is to seek the truth of Scripture no matter what doctrines must go. So the question now is, will you?
You still don't get it do you.
When I first put forward my 2 cents worth on the Gifts, I shared what the Lord showed me about them in the context of the Trinity.
The Godhead is involved in all aspects of human life and this is yet another area where they have given Gifts to mankind.
When studying Gifts, it is normaly important to search the Scriptures to identify all places which speak of Gifts.
Clearly Romans 12, Ephesiaqn 4 and 1Cor. 12 (which provide a list)
In doing so, the Spirit showed me that the Gifts of Romans were that of the Father (God), Ephesians were that of the Son and Corinthians that of the Spirit.
I thought at the time this was a wonderful revelation but I was hesitant to teach this because I had not noticed this before, nor had I read anything form over 50 books in my posession on the subject of the Gifts. Some of these books written by authors far beyond my education and reputation. Why all of a sudden would I be privy to this kind of revelation. So I ask God, as I normaly do in these type of circumstances, to confirm what He revealed to me with a verse in the Bible. I asked for a verse that would specifically put these Gifts in the context of the Trinity. The next day He showed me 1Cor. (12:4-6) not one verse but three verses tying them all together in the Trinity yet stating their diversity for each member of the Godhead.
I had always read these verse as if Paul was repeating himself 3 times, but such is not the case because each verse differentiates Gifts (Charisma) of the Spirit (Pneuma), Administrations (Diakonia - where we get the office or ministry of the deacon) of the Lord (Kurios) and the Operations (Energem) of God (Theos)
This was not Paul repeating himself, it the Holy Spirit through describing the different gifts given by the different members of the Godhead.
That's why I say you are blind. You are so intent on proving to me that the Gifts of Ephesians are not Gifts but people that you fail to see the greater revelation of the Gifts in the context of the Godhead. You love your Greek grammar so much, because "Paul chose the words" that the Spirit can't bless you with the bigger picture.
Even now as you read, you're thinking how you can rebuttle or object to what I have presented, it's an argumentative spirit. If you want to run with believing that Ephesian 4 is about people and not offices, go for it. Congratulations, you've won, I capitulate. Is this what you wanted to hear? Good. Maybe now you'll be able to relax, maybe even meditate on the subject and maybe, just maybe, hear the Spirit saying otherwise. Although that may be hard for someone who doesn't believe the gifts are present today.
But hey, no prob. No skin of my back. Now I think I'm done.
My friend, there's no need for any of this.
Let's go back to the beginning. As I recall it was you who first addressed me. You ended your post to me with,
Now, that sure sounds to me like I was being corrected.
I simply answered a question. Martin asked me what I thought of your post and I said that I didn't agree with your methodology and I gave my reasons why. Then you posted to me and you said that my methodology allowed me to pick and choose which Scriptures I wanted to accept. I went on to show that it doesn't. I also asked you if you applied the puffed up statements that Paul made to all Christians also, to which you replied no. So at this point you were doing the very thing you said that I was doing.
Then the issue of Ephesians 4 came up. I pointed out that it was my understanding that the Greek grammar doesn't allow the interpretation that the apostles, evangelists, pastors, teacher, etc that Christ gave were offices or gifts. You pointed me to 1 Corinthians, which speaks of the gifts, and so does Ephesians 4. However, Paul mentions the gifts separately from the apostles, evangelists, pastors, teachers, etc. After I posted I went and checked the Greek grammar in Ephesians 4 and it was in the masculine gender, which upheld what I said. It is evident even in the English, Paul says, He gave some apostles, these were men, not a office or gifts. Paul didn't say He gave the office of apostle or the gifts of apostle, he said He gave some apostles. They are all plural, if it was a gift it would be the gift of an apostle, or the gift or an evangelist. or the office of an evangelist. But it's not it's plural.
I "Did not" once address your issue of the Godhead and the gifts, I was simply replying to Martin as to why I disagreed with you methodology.
This started with your statement to me that my methodology allows me to pick and choose, yet when faced with evidence you don''t seem to like, isn't that exactly what you are doing?
"The truth is that when you get saved you do not become perfect, believe it or not you're still human. Nevertheless the Father declares you to be righteous, because of the work of His Son, and therefore clothes you with His own Righteouness. In the mean time the Holy Spirit is working under that cloak to transform you into the image of Christ, to point out the sins we may be totally unaware off, such as self-righteousness, arrogance, false humility even things like worry and fear. This is called the sanctification process or bringing the bride to a spotless and wrinkle free position. And when the Holy Spirit does point out sins, or sinful behaviour or attitudes, we graceously have an advocate before the father who constantly pleads on our behalf if we choose the repent and walk in obedience." DiDasKaLos
This is pretty much what I was getting at concerning the whole not sinning identity issue.
I mess up every day, but it is not counted against the righteousness declared over me by God. I don't have to defend my identity, but God's word defends me. If I was perfect, I wouldn't still get flustered or angry or worried or still let my tongue loose in negative ways which I count as sin "missing" the mark, because I am still not at rest. I have the perfect Holy Spirit working his perfection in me, however.
Also, in Ephesians 4, it seems like when looking at the greek, it's saying,
He gifted indeed apostles and prophets and evangelists and pastors. The word gave can be translated as bestowing a gift. and the word some in "He gave some" is translated indeed. I don't find a word for "some" pertaining to "He gave some". So I think your translation is correct, that it implies he gave the church apostles, prophets, etc. for the purpose of the things talked about. I don't know if that argues for or against anything yet though.
This is pretty much what I was getting at concerning the whole not sinning identity issue.
I mess up every day, but it is not counted against the righteousness declared over me by God. I don't have to defend my identity, but God's word defends me. If I was perfect, I wouldn't still get flustered or angry or worried or still let my tongue loose in negative ways which I count as sin "missing" the mark, because I am still not at rest. I have the perfect Holy Spirit working his perfection in me, however.
Also, in Ephesians 4, it seems like when looking at the greek, it's saying,
He gifted indeed apostles and prophets and evangelists and pastors. The word gave can be translated as bestowing a gift. and the word some in "He gave some" is translated indeed. I don't find a word for "some" pertaining to "He gave some". So I think your translation is correct, that it implies he gave the church apostles, prophets, etc. for the purpose of the things talked about. I don't know if that argues for or against anything yet though.
The only reason I put forth that Ephesians 4 are Gifts, and in this case Gifts of the Son for the Church or the Bride, is because of the 3 verses God showed me in Corinthians (12:4-6). The three verses tie in the Gifts so wonderfuly as Gifts of the Godhead. And verse 5 does identify the Ephesian Gifts as Administrative in nature.
If the Greek grammar seems to place these callings in a different light, such as individuals and not offices, there still remains that verse 5 with which we must contend with. I believe in referring to the Greek when needed but even it should not trump the Word of God itself when it is clearly stated in verse 5 (Administrations). Just as God places people in positions of authority throughout the earth, He does the same with His Church.
One thing we sometimes tend to forget is that the Kingdom of God is just that, a Kingdom, certainly not a democracy. His Kingdom is diverse with authority, God being the supreme authority. In God's creation we see authority. He created the angels with levels of authority. Lucifer was the angel with the highest authority. When He fell he took with him a third of the angels who have different levels of authority, such as principalities, powers, dominions, evil spirits in high places.
Adam had supreme authority over the earth. He was God's son given all delegated authority from God meant to rule and subdue the earth. Unfortunately he relinquished that authority to the Devil (Luke 4:6).
Michael the great archangel, certainly with great authority, had to call on the Lord Himself in order to subdue Satan's authority when contending for the body of Moses.
When Christ he stripped Satan of his authority on earth and has delegated it back to those believe in Him and obey His commands.
However sin in our lives will momentarily give back authority to the Devil to attack in that area of sin.
The perfect example is Job. God had declared him as righteous, perfect, eschewing evil and yet the Devil was able to attack him and take away every thing he had.
That is because Job had a serious sin in his life, a sin he was probably unaware of. Job(3:25-26)
Job had a great fear of loosing it all. "The thing that I greatly feared has come upon me" That great fear was not just a little thought or worry, it consumed him. Verse 26 says that he did not feel safe nor could he find rest. He probably had nightmares. And since we know that God doesn't give us a spirit of fear this was sinful on his part.
And even if Satan said that there was a hdge of protection around Job he knew there was an opening that he could take advantage of. Job's sin of a Great Fear was at chink or a hole in that hedge. Ecl (10:8) "... whoso breaks a hedge, a serpent shall bite him."
How did the Devil know that Job had a Great Fear, because the Devil can't read our minds, it is because Job spoke out his fears. (3:26) "I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet"
This is why God tells us to guard our tongues. Their is death and life in the tongue.
Ex. "One might say in a benign conversation; my father died at 54, my brother at 55, and my uncle at 57, I'll bet you I don't make it beyond 60" This type of negative and false confession can become a curse unto ourselves and allow the devil to attack us in that very manor.
God expects us to submit to authorities and not rebel as He says this would be like rebelling against Him.
He also expects us to guard our tongue as He knows how destructive it can be for us and others.
Anyway enough said I've gone off topic.
(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”
Similar threads
