Gifts of the Spirit

[martinlawrencescott]

Hello everyone, I am new to the forum.

I want to start a conversation about the passage of scripture there is a lot of contention about in the body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

I started by trying to understand what worship is, and I thought Romans 12 gave a good definition. Become a living sacrifice as our true and proper worship. How do we do that, by being renewed of mind and following the purposes of God. What happens after that? Warning: judge your faith according to what God has given you and not what everyone else has, then he explains the different giftings to benefit our ministries that are distributed for three reasons (Ephesians 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ and then further instructions on basic principles of Christian living that fall under this lifestyle of sacrifice/worship.

I was then taking a class and learning about all the controversy about what gifts and administrations are still for today and which are not. The two views I learned about was "That which is perfect" is talking about either Christ or the canon of scripture.

I believe in context, that verse applies to neither of those two, but that it refers to the body of Christ, which is what all three chapters on gifts of the spirit I used were talking about. In context it would make sense that what is in part is done away when they are no longer useful and beneficial for the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry, and the edifying of the body of Christ. When will the body of Christ reach this point of maturity?

Ephesians 4:13-15

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

What are your thoughts?

 

[Angelina]

Hi martinlawerencescott!!

I totally agree with you brother!

1 Corinthians 13
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I believe that the writer is talking about the process of sanctification and maturing into the likeness of Christ.

Ephesians 4
20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

judge your faith according to what God has given you and not what everyone else has, then he explains the different giftings to benefit our ministries that are distributed for three reasons (Ephesians 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ and then further instructions on basic principles of Christian living that fall under this lifestyle of sacrifice/worship

... Amen! well said! and welcome to CB.

 

[Butch5]

Hello everyone, I am new to the forum.

I want to start a conversation about the passage of scripture there is a lot of contention about in the body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

I started by trying to understand what worship is, and I thought Romans 12 gave a good definition. Become a living sacrifice as our true and proper worship. How do we do that, by being renewed of mind and following the purposes of God. What happens after that? Warning: judge your faith according to what God has given you and not what everyone else has, then he explains the different giftings to benefit our ministries that are distributed for three reasons (Ephesians 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ and then further instructions on basic principles of Christian living that fall under this lifestyle of sacrifice/worship.

I was then taking a class and learning about all the controversy about what gifts and administrations are still for today and which are not. The two views I learned about was "That which is perfect" is talking about either Christ or the canon of scripture.

I believe in context, that verse applies to neither of those two, but that it refers to the body of Christ, which is what all three chapters on gifts of the spirit I used were talking about. In context it would make sense that what is in part is done away when they are no longer useful and beneficial for the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry, and the edifying of the body of Christ. When will the body of Christ reach this point of maturity?

Ephesians 4:13-15

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

What are your thoughts?

If you believe that the perfect is the body of Christ, then it has already come, correct?

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Not in its fullness, for we are not complete, and we are continually being added to and built up. That which is mature/perfect/complete has not come yet for we are not mature/perfect/complete so in that sense what is perfect in context has not yet come, even though the body of Christ is already here.

 

[Butch5]

Not in its fullness, for we are not complete, and we are continually being added to and built up. That which is mature/perfect/complete has not come yet for we are not mature/perfect/complete so in that sense what is perfect in context has not yet come, even though the body of Christ is already here.

But it has come. If the perfect is the body of Christ it has come, whether in fullness or not it has come. Paul didn't say when the perfect, perfect has come, which is what would be the case if you are saying tha the body of Christ had come in it's fulness. I don't think there is an argument for the perfect being the body of Christ. What is the basis of you case other than your statement that the context is the body of Christ?

The context of the perfect or maturity is the foulness of that which is in part, is it not?

 

[martinlawrencescott]

But it has come. If the perfect is the body of Christ it has come, whether in fullness or not it has come. Paul didn't say when the perfect, perfect has come, which is what would be the case if you are saying tha the body of Christ had come in it's fulness. I don't think there is an argument for the perfect being the body of Christ. What is the basis of you case other than your statement that the context is the body of Christ?

The context of the perfect or maturity is the foulness of that which is in part, is it not?

I think I was stuck on the same issue. The reason I think it is the Body of Christ is because the word perfect is an adjective referring to something not described in the sentence itself which is why it is sometimes translated "When 'that which is' perfect". At first I found no words for "that which", but then I realized that because "perfect" is an adjective and in context with the rest of scripture it has to be referring to something in neuter outside the context of that individual sentence. If that wasn't the case, my argument would become, "When maturity itself comes". Because it is "that which" due to "perfect" being an adjective and not a noun, I believe the body of Christ is "that which" that it is talking about. The Greek doesn't lead me to believe the tense refers to something already perfect now, the "comes" talks about a future event. "That which is future" vs. that "which is present" (my mind hurts now).

What is that which is perfect to you? The canon of scripture, Christ, the Body of Christ, or something else?

 

[Butch5]

I think I was stuck on the same issue. The reason I think it is the Body of Christ is because the word perfect is an adjective referring to something not described in the sentence itself which is why it is sometimes translated "When 'that which is' perfect". At first I found no words for "that which", but then I realized that because "perfect" is an adjective and in context with the rest of scripture it has to be referring to something in neuter outside the context of that individual sentence. If that wasn't the case, my argument would become, "When maturity itself comes". Because it is "that which" due to "perfect" being an adjective and not a noun, I believe the body of Christ is "that which" that it is talking about. The Greek doesn't lead me to believe the tense refers to something already perfect now, the "comes" talks about a future event. "That which is future" vs. that "which is present" (my mind hurts now).

What is that which is perfect to you? The canon of scripture, Christ, the Body of Christ, or something else?

I agree with what you've said and I believe the perfect being neuter is key. You spoke of it being future and I agree. However, I believe it was future the time of Paul's writing not future at our time. I believe the Perfect is the Christian faith, that is not the canon but the faith, the body of Christians doctrine revealed by the apostles. What was the subject of what was in part? It was prophecy and knowledge that were in part and they both were revealing the Christian faith. I Believe Paul was saying that when the faith was complete prophecy and knowledge would cease. According to Jude the faith did reach that point.

Jude 1:3 ( KJV )
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

From Jude's statement I conclude that the faith was complete and handed to the saints. If the faith is complete then this would bring about an end to the supernatural gifts. It seems this is the evidence from history also. Origen who wrote around 250 AD said that at his time there were only traces of the gifts still around.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 4
Chap. II. Celsus next proceeds to say, that the system of doctrine, viz., Judaism, upon which Christianity depends, was barbarous in its origin. And with an appearance of fairness, he does not reproach Christianity because of its origin among barbarians, but gives the latter credit for their ability in discovering (such) doctrines. To this, however, he adds the statement, that the Greeks are more skilful than any others in judging, establishing, and reducing to practice the discoveries of barbarous nations. Now this is our answer to his allegations, and our defence of the truths contained in Christianity, that if any one were to come from the study of Grecian opinions and usages to the Gospel, he would not only decide that its doctrines were true, but would by practice establish their truth, and supply whatever seemed wanting, from a Grecian point of view, to their demonstration, and thus confirm the truth of Christianity. We have to say, moreover, that the Gospel has a demonstration of its own, more divine than any established by Grecian dialectics. And this diviner method is called by the apostle the “manifestation of the Spirit and of power:” of “the Spirit,” on account of the prophecies, which are sufficient to produce faith in any one who reads them, especially in those things which relate to Christ; and of “power,” because of the signs and wonders which we must believe to have been performed, both on many other grounds, and on this, that traces of them are still preserved among those who regulate their lives by the precepts of the Gospel.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Looking at the Greek, it makes me think "part" as a noun could be referring to itself within the context. Seems like it could mean all partiality will cease at the point which that which is perfect is come. The three things that remain are Faith, Hope, and Love. Couldn't Faith, Hope, and Love all three fit into that which is perfect in the context you described? There has to remain in it the context of the maturity of the body of Christ and what is beneficial, and so far Jesus, the canon, body of Christ, faith, hope, and love all seem fairly consistent. Is there any "Ahha! This is exactly what it means because the Greek says this!"? Even though out of faith, hope, and love, faith is what I think of most when I think of our Christian maturity.

In your context, you believe that when our faith reached a certain point we no longer needed the gifts which were meant to build our faith; or faith itself was at some point given, or did it reach its fullness at some point? Could there be parts of the world who don't have this faith and thus still need the gifts in order to build up their faith?

Lastly, I saw that the adjective perfect used in this context.

Ephesians 4:13 Till[sup]3360[/sup] we all[sup]3956[/sup] come[sup]2658[/sup] in[sup]1519[/sup] the unity[sup]1775[/sup] of the faith[sup]4102[/sup], and[sup]2532[/sup] of the knowledge[sup]1922[/sup] of the Son[sup]5207[/sup] of God[sup]2316[/sup], unto[sup]1519[/sup] a perfect[sup]5046[/sup] man[sup]435[/sup], unto[sup]1519[/sup] the measure[sup]3358[/sup] of the stature[sup]2244[/sup] of the fulness[sup]4138[/sup] of Christ[sup]5547[/sup]:

Adjective neuter applied to man, masculine noun. In that context, it reopens to me the possibility of it referring to Christ's second coming.

Thankfully, contextually we will always have what is most important, beneficial, and perfect whenever what is/was in part was/is done away.

 

[Thankful 1]

When the perfect comes? That is when Jesus comes.





I walk in a number of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I have for over thirty years.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

How, other than experience, did you come to that conclusion? (I too, have had such experiences and practice gifts that conflict with some others' Biblical interpretations.) But I am willing to give up every gift in order to better love my neighbor and benefit the body of Christ. I believe the gifts were meant for that very purpose, however. I am also willing to adapt my interpretation if I find that I am in error, and I won't rely solely on my experience, though I haven't received clear understanding that conflicts with those experiences.

 

[Butch5]

Looking at the Greek, it makes me think "part" as a noun could be referring to itself within the context. Seems like it could mean all partiality will cease at the point which that which is perfect is come. The three things that remain are Faith, Hope, and Love. Couldn't Faith, Hope, and Love all three fit into that which is perfect in the context you described? There has to remain in it the context of the maturity of the body of Christ and what is beneficial, and so far Jesus, the canon, body of Christ, faith, hope, and love all seem fairly consistent. Is there any "Ahha! This is exactly what it means because the Greek says this!"? Even though out of faith, hope, and love, faith is what I think of most when I think of our Christian maturity.

In your context, you believe that when our faith reached a certain point we no longer needed the gifts which were meant to build our faith; or faith itself was at some point given, or did it reach its fullness at some point? Could there be parts of the world who don't have this faith and thus still need the gifts in order to build up their faith?

Lastly, I saw that the adjective perfect used in this context.

Ephesians 4:13 Till[sup]3360[/sup] we all[sup]3956[/sup] come[sup]2658[/sup] in[sup]1519[/sup] the unity[sup]1775[/sup] of the faith[sup]4102[/sup], and[sup]2532[/sup] of the knowledge[sup]1922[/sup] of the Son[sup]5207[/sup] of God[sup]2316[/sup], unto[sup]1519[/sup] a perfect[sup]5046[/sup] man[sup]435[/sup], unto[sup]1519[/sup] the measure[sup]3358[/sup] of the stature[sup]2244[/sup] of the fulness[sup]4138[/sup] of Christ[sup]5547[/sup]:

Adjective neuter applied to man, masculine noun. In that context, it reopens to me the possibility of it referring to Christ's second coming.

Thankfully, contextually we will always have what is most important, beneficial, and perfect whenever what is/was in part was/is done away.

Let me clarify, When I said faith, I didn't mean personal faith. I meant "The Faith" the body of Christian doctrine that was preached. The Gospel message that Jesus preached.. Prophecy and knowledge were in part and they were revealing the Christian faith (body of doctrine). I believe What Paul was saying is that when that body of doctrine is mature, prophecy and knowledge will cease. Paul gives an example of growing from boyhood to manhood, a process of maturing. I think this is his point regarding the Christian faith.

I don't think the perfect is Christ because it is in the Neuter gender. If it were Christ it should be in the Masculine gender.

Paul's words in Ephesians 4:13 again point to a maturing process, he wants them to grow. I don't think faith, hope, and love, can be the perfect since they were already there when Paul was writing, Paul's idea of hope is the resurrection according to Romans 8. Paul says that hope that is seen is not hope, if that the case then hope cannot continue after prophecy and knowledge cease, yet Paul said it would.

 

[Thankful 1]

How, other than experience, did you come to that conclusion? (I too, have had such experiences and practice gifts that conflict with some others' Biblical interpretations.) But I am willing to give up every gift in order to better love my neighbor and benefit the body of Christ. I believe the gifts were meant for that very purpose, however. I am also willing to adapt my interpretation if I find that I am in error, and I won't rely solely on my experience, though I haven't received clear understanding that conflicts with those experiences.

The only way my understanding of scripture could change is if Jesus/Holy Spirit taught me differently.



Jesus taught me and gave me the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I would never let man’s understanding of the written Word of God, influence what God has taught me.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

The only way my understanding of scripture could change is if Jesus/Holy Spirit taught me differently.



Jesus taught me and gave me the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I would never let man’s understanding of the written Word of God, influence what God has taught me.

Thanks,

I don't take your testimony for granted.

M

The reason I am now thinking the "it can't be Christ because of the neuter" argument is no longer valid, is because while doing a word study, I am finding that in other parts of scripture I see perfect as an adjective referring to masculine nouns and even feminine nouns. The way that neuter adjective that is used doesn't seem to be dependent on the noun it is referring to, unless there is something about the Greek I don't understand (I don't know much, so misunderstanding would make sense). If there is another way you understand how Greek adjectives work, could you give a brief explanation of how they work so I could study this kind of thing better? Thanks.

 

[Thankful 1]

Thanks,

I don't take your testimony for granted.

M

The reason I am now thinking the "it can't be Christ because of the neuter" argument is no longer valid, is because while doing a word study, I am finding that in other parts of scripture I see perfect as an adjective referring to masculine nouns and even feminine nouns. The way that neuter adjective that is used doesn't seem to be dependent on the noun it is referring to, unless there is something about the Greek I don't understand (I don't know much, so misunderstanding would make sense). If there is another way you understand how Greek adjectives work, could you give a brief explanation of how they work so I could study this kind of thing better? Thanks.

In my opinion studding the bible is one big waste of time. Listening/reading the written Word of God,and letting the Jesus/Holy Spirit teach one what God wants one to know; now that is important.



When one studies the bible and does not let God teach him or her what it means, is just trying to come to know God without God brining him or her, and that can not be done.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

In my opinion studding the bible is one big waste of time. Listening/reading the written Word of God,and letting the Jesus/Holy Spirit teach one what God wants one to know; now that is important.



When one studies the bible and does not let God teach him or her what it means, is just trying to come to know God without God brining him or her, and that can not be done.

I disagree that studying the Bible is a waste of time, but without Jesus/Holy Spirit there isn't any understanding of Scripture. It is by God's grace that we have any comprehension of what He has to say to begin with. Without his direction in our teachings/studies we will error.

2Ti 2:15 Study [sup]4704[/sup] to shew [sup]3936[/sup] thyself [sup]4572[/sup] approved [sup]1384[/sup] unto God [sup]2316[/sup], a workman [sup]2040[/sup] that needeth not to be ashamed [sup]422[/sup], rightly dividing [sup]3718[/sup] the word [sup]3056[/sup] of truth [sup]225[/sup].

It helps to go back to scripture to see how or experiences are reflected in scripture. This should bring us confidence or correction.

1Cr 11:19 For [sup]1063[/sup] there must [sup]1163[/sup] be [sup]1511[/sup] also [sup]2532[/sup] heresies [sup]139[/sup] among [sup]1722[/sup] you [sup]5213[/sup], that [sup]2443[/sup] they which are approved [sup]1384[/sup] may be made [sup]1096[/sup] manifest [sup]5318[/sup] among [sup]1722[/sup] you [sup]5213[/sup].

-There is going to be debate, as long as there are people studying scripture. However, our differences can bring debate and who is right should stand out.

Rom 14:18 For [sup]1063[/sup] he that in [sup]1722[/sup] these things [sup]5125[/sup] serveth [sup]1398[/sup] Christ [sup]5547[/sup] [is] acceptable [sup]2101[/sup] to God [sup]2316[/sup], and [sup]2532[/sup] approved [sup]1384[/sup] of men [sup]444[/sup].

-But we miss the point entirely if we study for the mere sake of debate. Truth in itself is a lifestyle, Christ is that lifestyle represented to us, and without works no matter what we come to believe from scripture is pointless and benefits no one.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Let me clarify, When I said faith, I didn't mean personal faith. I meant "The Faith" the body of Christian doctrine that was preached. The Gospel message that Jesus preached.. Prophecy and knowledge were in part and they were revealing the Christian faith (body of doctrine). I believe What Paul was saying is that when that body of doctrine is mature, prophecy and knowledge will cease. Paul gives an example of growing from boyhood to manhood, a process of maturing. I think this is his point regarding the Christian faith.

I don't think the perfect is Christ because it is in the Neuter gender. If it were Christ it should be in the Masculine gender.

Paul's words in Ephesians 4:13 again point to a maturing process, he wants them to grow. I don't think faith, hope, and love, can be the perfect since they were already there when Paul was writing, Paul's idea of hope is the resurrection according to Romans 8. Paul says that hope that is seen is not hope, if that the case then hope cannot continue after prophecy and knowledge cease, yet Paul said it would.

In addition to my last response, what do you think of this translation; that Paul is stating a principle as a matter of fact: "When that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall pass away." As a cause and effect principle/clause. It makes sense when that which was once in part is made whole, the things that were beneficial to further that process will no longer be necessary, and cease to benefit. The things that will always be of benefit are faith, hope, and love. But love is and will always be the greatest, most beneficial, etc. (I actually believe this principle is true even if the Greek in this specific text doesn't affirm this point specifically).

 

[Butch5]

In addition to my last response, what do you think of this translation; that Paul is stating a principle as a matter of fact: "When that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall pass away." As a cause and effect principle/clause. It makes sense when that which was once in part is made whole, the things that were beneficial to further that process will no longer be necessary, and cease to benefit. The things that will always be of benefit are faith, hope, and love. But love is and will always be the greatest, most beneficial, etc. (I actually believe this principle is true even if the Greek in this specific text doesn't affirm this point specifically).

I agree with it. I think that is Paul's point. I also believe that those three will continue until Christ returns and then faith and hope will no longer be necssary and Love will remain.

 

[perrero]

As a point of interest and maybe clarification to this discussion, the title should probably be the Gifts of the Godhead as opposed to the Gifts of the Spirit.
Since we have quoted the three portions of scripture, Rom (12), Eph (4) and 1Cor (12), it may be useful to categorize as scripture clearly does.

Gifts of the Father = Romans 12
Gifts of the Son = Ephesians 4
Gifts of the Spirit = 1Corinthians 12

Not surprising as the Trinity is involved in affairs of man. We see them in the beginning, creation, then in the Passion of Christ and even in end times prophecy.
And so they are also involved in the giving of Gifts. This is confirmed by 1Corinthians (12:4-6)

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.



(4) These gifts are given by the Spirit at the will of the Spirit to profit withall.

They have nothing to do with our salvation. Whether we believe they are for today or not will have no bearing on our salvation. They are not a thing of the passed no more the other Gifts of the Godhead are. They are not to be ignored as Paul says he
would not have us ignorant about them. They to be coveted as Paul states to covet the "best" gifts.



​

(5) Why does this verse say Lord and not Jesus as implied in Ephesians?

This is because of the nature of these gifts are Administrative. These are positions of authority within the body of Christ which are all subject to the Lordship of Christ. Contrary to popular belief these were not given for the purpose of advancing or propagating the gospel. Their purpose is sevenfold and is listed in verses 12 & 13 of Ephesians 4.

1. 1 - For the perfecting of the saints,
   2 - for the work of the ministry,
   3 - for the edifying of the body of Christ
   4 - Till we all come in the unity of the faith,
   5 - and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
   6 - unto a perfect man,
   7 - unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ
   
   The advancement of the Gospel is given to every believer through the Great Commission. Mat (20:18), Mk (16:15)

(6) These gifts are given by God the Father but are indentified as given by God and not the Father because they are given to everybody that was born on the face of the earth. Given by the Father would suggest that they are for those who have a relationship with Him. This is not the case as stated in verse 6 "and there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God who works all in all.

All is the same all used for Rom (3:23) "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" or 1Tim (2:6) 'Who gave Himself as a ransom for all..."
These gifts from the Father put us all on the same playing field. We can go through life using the gifts to our own selfish gain or we can recognize that they were given to us to be used for loving God and our neighbor as ourselves. These gifts when turned over to Him can become powerful tools in body ministry, counseling, outreach, etc. They are the only Gifts that have been meted out to all of mankind.

Looking closely at these gifts, Prophecy (Proclaiming, Perceiving), Serving, Teaching, Exhorting, Giving, Ruling, Showing Mercy, we will notice that not only do we possess them all but we have all at one time or another exercised them in various degrees. One may be strong in the gift of serving while weak in Teaching and Proclaiming. That does not mean that we cannot teach at all. Matter of fact, I have found that even though all these gifts are inherent in each individual there is one gift that establishes itself as more predominant than the others. Perhaps this is what Paul meant when he wrote to Timothy and told him to “stir up the Gift that is within you” 2Tim.(1:6). This statement seems to single out a Gift that is innate. The Gifts of Ephesians (4) are certainly not innate they are more so administrative appointments or “callings” given to the Body of Christ. Those of 1Corinthians (12) are given by the Spirit through anointing for the needs of the moment not for permanent use like was encouraged in Timothy.

This predominant gift seems to be very comfortable in nature and never seems to be a chore to exercise. Actually what I have noticed is that when
people flow in the area of their dominant gift they appear to do so with great ease and efficiency. It seems like they were born to do so.
EX. Ruling - "He's a born leader" Exhortation - "There's not a negative bone in his body" Giving - "He'd give you the shirt of his back" Shower of Mercy - "She wears her heart on her sleeve"
One can usually identify their prominent gift by first eliminating the ones that they most obviously know is not within their comfort zone. When exercising your dominant gift, one feels absolute comfort and will become the foundation of your joy, although joy is not the goal.

​

Anyway I hope this helps in your discussion



​

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Thank you. I'm encouraged go back and test your insight. At first glance, it sounds promising and true. Butch, if you're around, what do you think?

​

 

[Butch5]

Thank you. I'm encouraged go back and test your insight. At first glance, it sounds promising and true. Butch, if you're around, what do you think?

​

It's all in how one approachees the Spriptures. Regarding the gifts in 1 Corinthians Didaskolas said Paul says to us.

They are not to be ignored as Paul says he would not have us ignorant about them.

Many Christians approach the Scriptures this way, If they see the words, us, our, or we, they apply it to themselves. I disagree with thus method of approaching the Scriptures. I think it can lead us in the wrong direction. My approach is to read the letter to the Corinthians (or any epistle) as a record of history and take the concepts taught there and apply them to my life. So, when Paul says "Us" in 1 Corinthians, I apply it to Paul and his readers, because that is who it was written to. Even Paul does this, he says to his readers that the things that happened in the OT were for our "Understanding". He doesn't say the things in the OT were written to us (Paul and his readers), he says they were written for our (Paul and his readers) understanding. Likewise, I read the NT like it was written for my understanding but not to me. That may not seem like that big of a deal, but it plays a role in how we understand the Scriptures. Let me explain. If I understand Paul words as written to me, then I have to believe that the gifts he speaks of have not ended because he says to desire Spiritual gifts. However, if I understand Paul's words as pertaining to the Corinthians, I can see where He tells "Them" to desire Spiritual gifts and yet also tells them the gifts would end. Therefore his words, 'Desire Spiritual gifts' may not apply to me. If the gifts have ended then those words of Paul "don't" pertain to me, if the gifts haven't ended then those words of Paul "do" apply to me.

Regarding Ephesians 4 it is my understanding that the Greek grammar doesn't allow for the interpretation of offices, ie. pastor teacher, prophet, evangelists etc. Rather, Paul is saying that Christ literally gave some men as pastor teachers, prophets, evangelists, etc.

Regarding the natural gifts I think I agree for the most part.