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God does not drag all....

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by Deadwheat1224, Sep 4, 2009.

  1. savedbygrace57

    savedbygrace57 New Member

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    Those who overcome and make it to the end make manifest they were elect, those whom God Loved.. Rom 8: 37Nay, in all these things we [The elect] are more than conquerors through him that loved us. The context prior to vs 37 gore back up to vs 33 33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. The elect are more that conquerors / overcomers..through Him that Loved them..
     
  2. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    Well Christina I know my view of scripture to include the second death is totally different then yours; in fact it is obvious from our past debates you’re ears are not singular. Notice the following verses are speaking to individuals who hear; not religious systems. Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. Revelation 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Revelation 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Revelation 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. What is the second death?What is the hidden manna?Overcome what; good question seeing I do not believe in you’re religious view of Revelation to include the so called Great Tribulation; you’re view on the anti Christ etc and you choke on anything out side of your worn out wine skin; there is very little that I can say to you. There is some real hidden manna here; and like the Jews in the wilderness who learned they cannot eat yesterdays manna; that is all you feast on. For that reason the hidden manna still hidden to your spiritual vision. I am feasting on hidden manna and have been for years; you quote Amos 8;11 but your hearing is limited to how you have been taught not what God's Word is saying.
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Frankly Benoni that is a relief to me because from what Ive seen of your doctrine I would not what you agreeing with me ......
     
  4. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    You know nothing of what I believe. But when something is shown to you out side you're religious box you choke. How can you hear anything spiritual if you have God all figured out in you're little religous box? You cut and run when it gets to deep for you to handle; Overcomers have eyes to see, ears to hear. This has nothing to do with carnal, natural or religious eyes. You are right what I have to say is tottally contrary to every religious mind ou there; but that is what it takse to overcome not escape like most believe. God does not call systems; God calls people.
     
  5. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    savedbygrace you really shoud read what you write it completely contradicts the character of God, you seem to have a lot of head knowledege but seem to know very little of who God is or His heart. Sit down one day, put that bible aside and then ask God if what you wrote is true, because it is far from it and serves no purpose at all but to confuse. God loves all men, "period", its His will that all men be saved, if some choose not to be saved that will be to there demise but wont be His first choice, the Elect God 144000 they will go through many trials to get to where Goid wants them and believe me if you think christianity is just about reading the bible ang going to church, then you are not even begging to see the wonders of God or the works of the enemy. Our lives are a battle and we seem to fall more then we stand, but in the end it is Jesus alone that will see His people through, not church, not men, not knowing the bible, but a true hand in hand relationship with Him.In His Love
     
  6. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    Amen... Well put.
     
  7. savedbygrace57

    savedbygrace57 New Member

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    mj says:
    you say that because your a stranger to the True God..
     
  8. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    No this is said because he does know the true God and he knows what you say is totally contrary to God's nature. You are like the jews during Jesus day who knows only the letter that killeth. You're idea of who God is limits God; oh I know you know God's Word; but you do not know God. John 8:32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.In Jn. 8:32. The Master was giving a discourse, explaining that He had come from God, sent from the bosom of the Father He had come from above, and they did not know Him because they did not know His Father. Then to those Jews present who believed on Him He declared, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." The word "truth" there means a revealing of what was covered. You will know that which is hidden. You will understand that which has been concealed in the patterns, the types, the shadows. You will perceive that which has been obscured by the veil of the fleshly mind and hidden in God from before the dawn of the ages. The word "know" is from the Greek GINOSKO meaning to experience or become aware of. Jesus said you would experience, you would become experientially aware of that which was formerly concealed and hidden, and that truth would make you FREE. In II Pet. 1:3-4 the apostle wrote, "According as His divine power bath given unto us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that bath called us to glory and virtue: whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." The word "knowledge" is in the Greek EPIGNOSIS meaning to recognize, recognition, full discernment and acknowledgement. This is most interesting! COGNITION means, according to Webster, "the process of knowing or perceiving." In RE-COGNITION we have the prefix "re" which means "again". Re-cognition, therefore, means TO KNOW AGAIN, TO PERCEIVE A SECOND TIME. What did Peter mean, then, when he said that exceeding great and precious promises are given to us, and all things that pertain to life and God-likeness "through the KNOWLEDGE (EPIGNO- SIS: re-cognition, knowing again) of HIM who has called us unto glory and virtue." Recognition is to become fully aware of and fully acquainted with WHAT WE ALREADY KNEW BEFORE. It means to identify what was known before. If I met you on a street corner one day and then didn't see you for a couple of weeks, when I saw you again I would recognize you because I met you once before. I would remember you, bringing you back again into mind. And that, precious friend of mine, is what truth is, that is what salvation is, that is what redemption is, that is what re-conciliation is, that is what re-birth is, that is what Jubilee is - it's recognizing what we already know, it's identifying and possessing again experientially what is already ours! It's being awakened. It's a return. Hallelujah
     
  9. savedbygrace57

    savedbygrace57 New Member

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    ben says:
    Both of you are strangers to the True God and worship your own god of human reason..
     
  10. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    The problem with this view (that the elect are a only special group of people elected to task) is that it does not represent the full biblical portrait of who the elect are... for instance:1Pe 1:1 ESV Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,"Here Peter writes to the Christians of the dispersion, and he refers to all of them as "the elect". Sure, God elects certain people to particular tasks within the body of Christ, but that does not exhaust what it means ot be elect. People are elected to salvation as well.Deadwheat, one of the biggest issues in this conversation is God's absolute exhaustive foreknowledge. God knows and knew from all eternity, before time began, exactly who would be saved and who wouldn't. God does not "look down the corridors of time" to see who believes, and then labels that person as "elect". That destroys the whole meaning of the word. To be elect is to be singled out, or simply as "chosen". It doesn't make any sense to say that God looked into the future, saw who would believe and then say that that person was "chosen". If a person is chosen by God, that is, if they are elected unto salvation, that means God has selected them, chosen them to be saved.I know that this grates on the modern person's nerves, for it seems unfair that God would choose some to be saved and not choose others. But in fact this is exactly what God does. He chose Israel as a nation, not based on anything intrinsic to that nation, but because it was God's good pleasure to choose them for His own glory:Deu 7:6-7 ESV "For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. (7) It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples,"and so it is with individuals... God chose, not based on anything within that person themselves, but rather He chooses to display His glory... in Romans 9 Paul takes 2 people as equal in this world as you can be... twins... both of whom did wrong in his sight, both of whom were sinners... and yet He can say that He chose one over the other... and the question of fairness is exactly the question Paul deals with in terms of election in this passage...Rom 9:10-16 ESV And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, (11) though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- (12) she was told, "The older will serve the younger." (13) As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.'I just think that the bible is very clear on this point. People may not like it, it may not be the politically correct thing to say these days, for we live in a democracy and we try to stand in judgment over God determining what would be right for Him and what wouldn't, but our standards of justice do not apply to Him, He is the standard, we are not, and the fact is, the bible teaches that God chooses some and passes over others, these others that are passed over are simply called the reprobate.. those chosen are the elect... again, remember that there is nothing special about the persons who make up this class of people... no one can brag and say that they must be special or something for God to have chosen them... no.. anyone who rightly understands election praises God for His mercy and his grace for he or she knows very well that there is nothing within them that God should look down and say "there is my child"... its all of grace, so that no one can boast...blessings,ken
     
  11. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    You speak of human reasoning; but all you give is you’re opinion; this shows the human reasoning is you’re reasoning, seeing this is all you express; we are using God's Word to back up our opinion. Moses was anointed by God and God put him here so we can understand who this awesome God really is. The vast majority of believers use human reasoning like you’re self for they do not know God like Moses knew God’s way; they like you’re self only know God’s acts. Psalm 103:7He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.Moses knew God in a far deeper way then thouse down beloew the mountain; the children of Israel knew only God’s acts. The blind lead the blind in religion today; they know only the acts…
     
  12. Deadwheat1224

    Deadwheat1224 New Member

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    I don't have a problem admitting that God gives more blessings to some... I do believe that though he loves everyone perfectly, he loves some more than others in a sense. The problems I have with this occur when the following statements are made:1) God does not love all people--God does love all, and hates none. He even loves those who are not "saved" and is sad that they do not accept him.2) God does not call all--God calls all people (maybe not in this current life), but since he does desire all to be with him, he must necessarily call all.There may be more, but that's all I can think of currently. Those are the two biggest issues I see with this doctrine. Furthermore, I tend to take issue with the term "being saved", and see a need for distinguishing between "redemption" and "salvation".In my mind we are redeemed in this life, but we cannot be saved. To know that we are saved in this life is presumption. Redemption is the one time act that occurred when Jesus sacrificed himself on the Cross. It the act by which we were Justified (made right) and able to receive salvation from the payment of our debts through Christ.Salvation, on the other hand, only occurs when this life ends and final judgment has been issued as to where we end up. In my Soteriology, salvation is an ongoing process... I realize that this most likely stands in opposition to common belief on this forum.
     
  13. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars. could be you need to go back and find out why God choose Israel. It was not because God just pulled Israel out of his butt, and said, I choose this people.It was because of a promise made to a man that had the capacity to believe God. HIS, faith was counted for righteousness (Right standing with God) as without faith, it is impossible to please him. That mans name was Abraham!!! Why does he pass people by??? They choose not to believe anything. Everyone has a measure of faith In God's word. It was the Word the substance of faith that framed the planets and set everything in perfect rotation. People plan there whole weeks and days according to nighttime and daytime. Not to many people lay awake at night, wondering if the sun will come up. Why? They have faith that the sun will be there when they wake up.Jesus Is Lord.
     
  14. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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  15. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Benoni
    If we keep reading Romans, and not stop short. It would seem that we "USE TO BE SINNERS"Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. What you believe, means everything.Be blessedJesus Is Lord
     
  16. savedbygrace57

    savedbygrace57 New Member

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    ben says:
    yes, thats all you give us here is human reasoning, thats all your qualified to give, your not born again..
     
  17. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    So what is you're point. You cannot "believe" until God draws you; you are carnally dead in trustpasses and sin. Have you every seen a dead man believe something? God must quicken youre spirit, drag you out of the carnal state/mind so you can see and hear God.Eph. 2: 1-11John 6:44
     
  18. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    If you have a problem with what I say then how about being a real Christian and debate the issues instead of personal attacks which are nothing but childish behavior.You know nothing about my walk in the Lord.
     
  19. savedbygrace57

    savedbygrace57 New Member

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    You call my behaviour childish, and i see yours as devilish and anti God and bible.. I am not here to debate, but to preach the Gospel.. And yes, to say one has childish behavior, is a personal attack, you hypocrite..
     
  20. Deadwheat1224

    Deadwheat1224 New Member

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    Please forgive me... but it seems that the Gospel you preach is one of exclusion and hate...
     
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