God isn’t finished with Israel yet!

[eprom61]

I thought I would start a thread that focused on God’s promises to the Nation and land of Israel. Some of the following scriptures are unfulfilled prophecies, clearly articulating how the nation and people of Israel continue to be intimately involved in God’s redemptive plan. These following verses simply clarify the fact that God has never, and will never break His promises to the people of Israel. It’s clear from the context that these passages are not talking about a spiritual Israel, as some proponents of replacement theology might advocate, but they are referring to the physical nation and people of Israel!

Jeremiah 31:35, 36 Thus says Yahuah, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; Yahuah of hosts is His name: “If this fixed order departs From before Me,” declares Yahuah, “Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever.”

Jeremiah 33:24 – 26 “Have you not observed what this people have spoken, saying, ‘The two families which Yahuah chose, He has rejected them’? Thus they despise My people, no longer are they as a nation in their sight. Thus says Yahuah, ‘If My covenant for day and night stand not, and the fixed patterns of heaven and earth I have not established, then I would reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, not taking from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.’”

Romans 11:28, 29 From the standpoint of the gospel they (the people of Israel) are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they (the people of Israel) are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[Angelina]

Replacement theology has certainly caused a lot of confusion and I agree, God's promises to Israel are Israels because of their forefathers and his promises to us through Abraham re: Christ and salvation are for all including Israel whose veil will eventually be removed. We "Gentile believer's" are coming in at the end of a great procession - saved by grace through faith along with those whom God had hardened temporarily, for our sake.

BB

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Hi eprom61,

Sometimes using scriptures, one does away with other scriptures that speak of the same things. We want all the scriptures to agree with each other.
1. The promises to Israel were conditional.
2. Not all the children of Israel are of Israel.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

3. We see in the above that the children of the "flesh" are not the heirs but to the children of "promise" which are those children of Abraham who have faith.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
We, Christians. are the children of Abraham, Jews and Gentiles alike.

4. This is not to say that there are not still some of Israel that are the natural branch of Israel.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Promises made to those Jews of faith, now also pertain to Gentiles.

5. Knowing then when Paul says all of Israel shall be saved, one should realize that the scripture speaks of the children of faith, which includes us!


Now let us look at the scriptures you have pointed out.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Were the scriptures speaking directly to the Jews? Let's look at the scriptures that came before.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
The days come, when God will make a new covenant with the house of Israel. That covenant is the one explained in the New Testament.
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Not according to the old covenant.
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
He is speaking about the Holy Ghost being part of the covenant with the house of Israel.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

These are things I mention because hermeneutics must always be used to understand the scriptures properly.

So the emphasis here is, Christians, Jews and Gentiles, are the children of Israel, when it pertains to the New Covenant.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

This is probably one of my favorite subjects. I am not Jewish but years ago i recognized that Israel is still in the running and plays an important part in the future as far as God's plans are concerned.

The Gentile Christian church has either ignored those portions of scriptures .... or tried to allegorically make Israel into the church .... but it cannot work in the end.

Even our theology books skip over the unfulfilled Israel components. Recently I purchased the book "Israelology" by Arnold Fruchtenbaum who does a very good job of clarifying these issues. It is a thousand pages long and I will post a few highlights as I go through the book.

During the past 10 years I have found that the snags in the bible are smoothed out once we have Israel in its proper perspective .... Most of the end time events will be centered around Israel and her citizens.

Even though most of Israel remains in un-beleif as far as the Gospel .... God will still keep his covenant with them in the end .

Not a lot different than keeping his covenant with us gentile Christians .... even if we screw up or are disobedient at times.

Ultimately Romans says "all Israel will be saved" ..... i expect God does that through Christ somehow in the end .... we are not given the details ..... and Israel does not realize it yet.

Israel has not accepted Christ ..... thus they are out of the forgiveness loop ..... and they have sure been punished .... more than any other group in history.

I feel that the time of punishment is mostly over and God again will focus his sights favorably on his chosen nation and chosen people.

 

[veteran]

The modern nation of Israel only represents a portion of Israelites, those of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi mainly. The ten tribes were separated and scattered centuries ago, and are a great number of people still. So any Bible promises given to the seed of Israel must be weighed in that respect, and not just in regard to those who call theirselves Jews. There are many non-Israelites that have taken the religion of Judaism and call theirselves Jews, when they are not of any tribe of Israel.

Today's state of Israel has the same problems it had during Christ's first coming, a group of foreigners who have overtaken it, just as the foreigner scribes and many Idumeans had in Jesus' day.

Apostle Paul in Rom.9 settled this matter, because the name Israel is the Salvation name given to Jacob, and means those who prevail with God. It now applies to all believers on Christ Jesus, regardless of birth (Eph.2 with Paul's "commonwealth of Israel". A commonwealth is made up of many nations).


This was Old Testament prophecy, by the way...

Gen 48:18-22
18 And Joseph said unto his father, "Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head."
19 And his father refused, and said, "I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations."
20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, "God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh": and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
21 And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
22 Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."
(KJV)


Ephraim was the younger son of Joseph. Israel (Jacob) transferred the birthright blessing upon Ephraim's head, and that's what that "one portion above they brethren" also points to.

Israel (Jacob) says in v.19 that Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations".

Think about that. What "multitude of nations" has the state of Israel ever become? It never has.

Ephraim later became head over the ten tribes that lived in the northern holy lands (1 Kings 11). God separated Ephraim and the ten tribes apart from Judah, Benjamin, and Levi which lived in the southern holy lands. To this day, the majority of the ten tribes have remained scattered, and not joined with Judah, Benjamin, or Levi (called the "house of Judah" in God's Word).

The majority of God's Promises to Israel went to Ephraim and the ten tribes, because upon Joseph and his sons is where God's Birthright came (1 Chron.5). This is why God calls Ephraim "my firstborn" in Jeremiah 31:9. One of God's Promises involving that was The Gospel.

So who... of Israel received The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and who rejected it?

Find the area where The Gospel was preached to the nations, and they became Christian nations, and you will discover where the "multitude of nations" are that Ephraim was to become.

Of course, this Bible teaching is hated by many Jews in the world and in Israel today, because they are trying to replace themselves into center focus of God's Birthright and Salvation Plan when the majority of them still reject Christ Jesus today. Replacement theology? No, the prophecy fulfilled through Ephraim as written involving The Gospel of Jesus Christ to the western Christian nations is not replacement theology (remember Romans 9). Those trying to do the replacement are the false Jews that still reject Christ Jesus. Those false Jews that Jesus pointed to in Rev.2 & 3 involve mostly foreigners that crept in among Israel centuries ago. When Christ returns the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) will be joined back together with the "house of Judah" (Ezek.37).

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

We should also keep in mind the bible distinguishes between 4 groups of people

Gentile beleivers
Gentile unbeleivers

Jewish believers
Jewish unbelievers

Sometimes I consider the unfulfilled Israeli portions of the bible refer to saved (Messianic) Jews ..... but i run into many snags trying to do so.

Actually , what I find is that it tends to be mostly about Israel in unbelief and Israel as a nation ....... maybe some day there will be a sudden transformation of Israels citizens to Christ ..... that would work too.

Whatever the case , God still has distinct plans for Israel that are separate from his plans for the gentile christian church.

I find it interesting that Messianic Jews have no issues in this regard ..... they accept that we are "one" with them under Christ ..... yet they see very little else in common with us. They find it important to retain their Jewishness ..... which puts them at odds with both the gentile believers and the Jewish unbelievers. They are truly "all by themselves" in the big picture.

So far in my reading of messianic Jewish literature it seems to me they have Christianity figured out better than anyone else.

Arnold Fruchtenbaum does a very good job explaining it in his book "The remnant of Israel"




====================================

I happened to come across a 10 series video presentation of the rapture by Arnold Fruchtenbaum

The first 12 minute video does an excellent job of describing the church as "One under Christ"

Yet it points out the two distinct components of "the church" ..... ie: Jew and Gentile.

very interesting and well explained.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jvh-W4FoNw

 

[veteran]

God's Word actually distinguishes between 6 different groups of peoples:

1. Jewish believers of the House of Judah (three tribes)
2. Jewish non-believers of the House of Judah (three tribes)
3. Believing Israelites of the House of Israel (ten tribes)
4. Unbelieving Israelites of the House of Israel (ten tribes)
5. Believing Gentiles
6. Unbelieving Gentiles


Jer 3:17-18
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
(KJV)


God's Word makes this distinction between two separate houses of Israelites, so why don't today's pastors make that distinction also?

 

[Brothertom]

Here are some scriptures that most certainly belong in this Thread......from the Expanded Bible.


" They are the people of Israel, God’s ·chosen,  adopted children. They ·have seen [or have] the glory of God, and they have the ·agreements that God made between himself and his people [ covenants]. God gave them the law of Moses and the ·right way of worship [or temple worship] and his promises.

·They are the descendants of our great ancestors [ They have the fathers/patriarchs], and ·they are the earthly family into which Christ was born [or from their descendants the Messiah came], ·who is God over all. Praise him forever [or May God, who is over all, be praised forever]! Amen.

It is not that ·God failed to keep his promise to them [ God’s word failed]. ·But only SOME OF THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL are truly God’s people [ Because not all those (descended) from Israel are Israel], ·and only some of Abraham’s descendants are true children of Abraham [ NOR ARE ALL] of Abraham’s seed/descendants TRUE CHILDREN .

But God said to Abraham: “·The descendants I promised you will be from Isaac [or Through Isaac your descendants will carry on your name; ..................Gen. 21:12].”

This means that ·not all of Abraham’s descendants [ it is not the children of the flesh who] are God’s true children. [ But; Rather] ·Abraham’s true children [ Those counted as Abraham’s descendants/seed] are ·those who become God’s children because of the promise God made to Abraham [ CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ].

THE PROMISED REMNANT.

“[ Though] The ·people [ children; sons] of Israel are numbered
like the grains of sand ·by [or of] the sea......

"But only ·a FEW of them [the REMNANT] will be saved,
...... because the Lord will quickly and completely ·punish the people [carry out/execute his sentence; settle his account] on the earth [Is. 10:22–23..............

THE ONE FACTOR FOR ALL JEWS TO BE SAVED....JESUS.
Jesus said, “You people are from here below [ from the earth], but I AM FROM ABOVE [ from heaven or from God].

You belong to this world, but I ·don’t belong to this world [ am not of this world].

So I, JESUS told you that you would die in your sins. Yes, you will DIE in your sins if you don’t believe that ·I AM HE!"

Jews cannot be saved without repenting & believing on Jesus, & receiving His sacrifice & THEN become a Child of the Promise, a partaker of the Holy Spirit, a Child of God.

There is such a thing, then, as the Israel of God...."I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew."

and........
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God."

There are many references to Jerusalem, & the rescue of Israel at the last Trump, when Jesus gathers the Israel of God....but He does it in Jerusalem, where He was rejected & Crucified; the city of David....of whom it is proclaimed of the Messiah/God/Man ...."THE SON OF DAVID."...

The anti-Christ will gather that huge army there...of Muslim Jihadists I believe, to physically & actually butcher every Jew alive...thereby annuling the Promises to Abraham, & the prophecies of the prophets, Jesus Himself, the Apostles & Jesus Himself revealing the End times Himself speaking through the Apostle John's visions.

And then, all of Israel...that are truly saved will be given grace to repent & believe...Hallelujah! I believe the Two Witnesses bodily resurrection there, & their testimony of Jesus's Lordship, will be a factor as many will witness this event in Jerusalem, & believe on Him!

"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced.
Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo!"

Here is another question/possibility too. It appears that Saints will rule & reign with Jesus during the 1000 year , millennial Reign....& what is there to reign over if no people are left here?.....They are called the "NATIONS" in the scripture....& proving they are not all believers...it states that :

"Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. "



Could some Hasidic Jews be left? in this company left on the Earth
AFTER Jesus returns?

I have been to Israel multiple times, lived with them, ministered to them, tried to love them. I must say that there is not much faith there...a lot of tradition & dead religion that only produces a self-righteous pride....& they HATE Jesus overall..but let me tell you a story when the Lord gave me his heart about her; the Land of Israel.

It was 1999, & certain Christians from all over Europe gathered on an Apology tour, walking across several countries, into Jerusalem, apologizing for excesses done in the Crusades..[ No one was permitted to speak about Jesus in any way,,,,to offensive...just say your sorry!...]...& I happened to be there.

There was the a meeting held at a famous, large Church in Old town, ....& I bet every Messianic Believer in Country attended. I sat in a corner, & just watched, as a few hundred people talked & there before & after some religious things going on...Some said it was the largest gathering of Messianic ever in the modern age.

I began to discern things, & people as I watched...& all I saw was carnality, immaturity, acting, & pride ....almost everyone! I was shocked....& the Lord.....began to minister to me. A burden came over me, & very quietly, like bubbles, the Holy Spirit began to rise in me, & I spoke in other tongues softly...while His Heart was breaking....I began to weep....as the Lord gave me His Heart, & then sob....While burning with sorrowful love.....& then the tongues within me turned to understanding....& sentences began to form...ever-so-clearly....

“How lovely are your tents, O Jacob!
Your dwellings, O Israel!
Like valleys that stretch out,
Like gardens by the riverside,
Like aloes planted by the Lord,
Like cedars beside the waters.

He shall pour water from his buckets,
And his seed shall be in many waters.


“His king shall be higher than Agag,
And his kingdom shall be exalted.


8“God brings him out of Egypt;
He has strength like a wild ox;
He shall consume the nations, his enemies;
He shall break their bones
And pierce them with his arrows.
He bows down, he lies down as a lion;
And as a lion, who shall rouse him?’


“Blessed is he who blesses you,
And cursed is he who curses you.”

The Word went on through me like that,& All I could do was sob...I never prophesied it to anyone...but I still carry a part of that experience with me today...& Jesus will return there...It was a tender love song with Divine affection that cannot be uttered....& there is something about the saved Jew that God is jealous over.

I repented of my prideful discernment that was NOT mixed with Love & MERCY, & was what Spiritual Pride really is.....so subtle. God has definite & special Promises for the Jews, & some are, & will be saved. I have met a few of the Promise, of the Remnant there.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Tom .... with all respect ...... whether we like it or not ...... we must acknowledge that Israel (in unbelief) is still central in Gods plans.

Our generation especially can see it clearly ..... the re-gathering to the land in 1948 ..... the prosperity of Israel in those short years since then ..... the success of the Jew elsewhere in the free world ..... even though they do not have Christ as Messiah (yet)

And most important of all , Jesus does not return to earth until the Jews in Israel cry out for him

Arnie and Tom and everybody on this forum can call out to Jesus to return to earth and it dont mean bugger all.

It is when the Jews in Israel call for the messiah , then he comes ...... and to their surprise he looks exactly like Jesus

So what does Jesus do ..... kill them or save them ... ??

 

[Brothertom]

Some HE kills, Some He saves; Like always.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Maybe the way it is done can be applied to both Christians and Israel alike

it is going to sound convoluted but here goes ....

Jesus was the sacrifice for the sins of Israel ..... even if they have delayed accepting it .... even if they don't know it yet.

Not a lot different than Jesus was sacrificed for us 2000 years ago ..... the salvation still applies ..... even though we came into the world recently

Could we not even go back and say that Jesus was the sacrifice for Moses , Abraham , David and the boys .... even before Jesus was born and sacrificed ?

Will Moses & Abraham be in heaven with us ? I think so.

If God wanted to save all Israel through Jesus Christ I suppose he could ...... it then comes down to a matter of timing ... he can apply the salvation after the fact if he wanted ,

He has already provided the sacrifice before the fact for folks like us.



Obviously we gentile Christians must personally accept Christ while we are alive .... But God has a covenant with Israel that precludes the gentile Church , and appears to still be in effect at the end

 

[veteran]

There's still that error of inferring that all Israelites are Jews, when the Jews only make up three tribes of Israel per God's Word (specifically the "house of Judah").

God's birthright promises to Israel stayed with the believing remnant of Israel outside the holy land, under Ephraim, because the majority of the seed of believing Israelites are not in the holy lands.

Today's nation state of Israel formed again in 1948 only fulfilled the Jeremiah 24 prophecy God gave about the house of Judah.

Those who don't care to address this only reveal their lack of Bible study on the matter.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I dont disagree with you Tom ..... but it always comes down to modern day Israel is mostly populated by Jews .... and the world can no longer come up with remaining members of all the 12 tribes.

I do not exclude the possibility there could still be descendants today from all the tribes of israel but we dont know who they are , and most importantly they do not know who they are.

If the bloodlines have somehow been preserved (without the families actually realizing it ) ...... then i suppose God could find the 144,000 that he says he will anoint in the last days.

In my case , I am guilty of tunnel vision for The Nation of Israel , without regard to which tribe actually populates it.

The whereabouts of the 12 tribes remains a mystery today , if indeed they even exist any more .

If not for the mention of the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes in Revelation , we would probably have abandoned the subject years ago.

My best guess is that if indeed there are remnants of the other 11 tribes in the world today , they would probably be messianic Israelites who have never been in our spotlight.

Even the messianic Jews will tell you that they are a very segregated group ,,,,, they do not often co-mingle with the Gentile Christian Church , and the rest of the Jews consider them traitors.

Maybe that is where the other 11 tribes have been preserved and we just dont know it.

 

[veteran]

I dont disagree with you Tom ..... but it always comes down to modern day Israel is mostly populated by Jews .... and the world can no longer come up with remaining members of all the 12 tribes.

I think there are plenty of pointers to where the majority of the scattered ten tribes wound up, both Biblically and archaeologically. Translators of the Assyrian tablets linked them to the Cimmerian tribes that migrated westward into Asia Minor and Europe. And that's exactly where The Gospel of Jesus Christ was accepted on the largest scale forming the western Christian nations of history.

One only need to understand God's Promises to the "house of Israel", Joseph and Ephraim, to understand where and what peoples those were fulfilled amongst. And that's where many of the "house of Judah" was scattered too, after their Babylon captivity. Only a very small remnant of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi went back to Jerusalem after their 70 years Babylon captivity (Ezra 2). Per Amos 9:9, our Heavenly Father knows exactly where the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" are scattered today. You simply have not studied enough Old Testament history and prophecies God specifically gave to them. So your statement that God's Word is silent about it is moot, for It definitely is not silent about it.

I do not exclude the possibility there could still be descendants today from all the tribes of israel but we dont know who they are , and most importantly they do not know who they are.

If the bloodlines have somehow been preserved (without the families actually realizing it ) ...... then i suppose God could find the 144,000 that he says he will anoint in the last days.

In my case , I am guilty of tunnel vision for The Nation of Israel , without regard to which tribe actually populates it.

The whereabouts of the 12 tribes remains a mystery today , if indeed they even exist any more .

If not for the mention of the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes in Revelation , we would probably have abandoned the subject years ago.

My best guess is that if indeed there are remnants of the other 11 tribes in the world today , they would probably be messianic Israelites who have never been in our spotlight.

Even the messianic Jews will tell you that they are a very segregated group ,,,,, they do not often co-mingle with the Gentile Christian Church , and the rest of the Jews consider them traitors.

Maybe that is where the other 11 tribes have been preserved and we just dont know it.

Messianic Jews claim to be of the "house of Judah", from the three tribes which God separated the ten tribes apart from. Only some... of them can accurately trace their lineage back to the seed of Israel. Quite a lot of them are actually Gentiles that became Jews back in history (like the Khazars, Edomites, Kenites, Canaanites, etc.). That makes the geneaological lineage record keeping idea as a requirement to establish who the ten tribes are as a moot argument too.