God's Desire is that All Men be Saved!

[justbyfaith]

I'll take that as you don't actually have an answer.

I know that you interpret those verses differently than I do, and that I will not be able to convince you of my interpretation.

I read them literally; you add to them your presupposed theology.

But I know from experience that it will take a miracle to convince a Calvinist of the truth...

 

[reformed1689]

I'm back, to say, can you read them off the page, in English? then it is written in English.

Translated

 

[reformed1689]

I read them literally; you add to them your presupposed theology.

You read them out of context. And no, it is not my presupposed theology. I was not always Calvinist. But when I read what is ACTUALLY written, I was convinced.

 

[justbyfaith]

Translated

Printed. In English.

Thus, we can use the kjv and say, "It is written" against satan; and he can't come back at us and say, "but what does it say in the original Greek or Hebrew?"

 

[justbyfaith]

You read them out of context. And no, it is not my presupposed theology. I was not always Calvinist. But when I read what is ACTUALLY written, I was convinced.

And I have been a Calvinist (although I never fully delved into the many writings of their theology). But when I saw what the Bible says concerning their doctrine, I went with the Bible instead of Calvin.

 

[reformed1689]

And I have been a Calvinist (although I never fully delved into the many writings of their theology). But when I saw what the Bible says concerning their doctrine, I went with the Bible instead of Calvin.

Yeah I didn't know I was Calvinist til years later. In fact, to this day, I have not read much of Calvin at all. The teachings don't come from him.

 

[justbyfaith]

T- I agree with; with the exception that a person can be wholly sanctified.
U- disagree; I believe that man is predestined according to foreknowledge of his choice of God.
L- disagree; there are specific verses that say that Jesus died for all men.
I- with closer inspection this cannot be (will elaborate in next post)
P- agree, but don't take it as far as OSAS, I limit it to POTS (1 John 2:17, 1 John 3:6).

 

[justbyfaith]

Irresistible Grace appears to be true at first glance because of 1 Corinthians 13:8a and Revelation 19:6.

If it be the case, then there is either Limited Atonement or Universalism (I can think of no middle ground that amounts to sound doctrine).

It is not Limited Atonement because Jesus died as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6).

It is not Universalism because there is a very real hell that people go to (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:46).

So Irresistible Grace is not the case (see also Acts of the Apostles 7:51). The Holy Spirit, and thus His grace, can indeed be resisted.

I conclude that love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:8a) to give every man a free choice in the matter of whether he will obey the Lord unto salvation or disobey unto condemnation.

 

[prism]

Men choose of their own free will to be born again. Therefore those not born again will be their own culpability in judgement and not God's culpability for not 'changing' them so they would want to be born again.

I guess you haven't grasped what I was describing? God doesn't work in a person so 'they want to be born again'. Aagain, He brings them under conviction of their sin and reveals His Son to those under conviction seek Him. Again...

And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
(Mat 16:17)

The way you throw around 'free will', Peter could have truly believed in Jesus without any revelation from the Father.

1 Peter 1:22-23 "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

You purified your souls in obeying the truth is how they became born again.[/QUOTE] Peter is simply explaining the result of being born again...'seeing ye have purified your souls etc'....
You are putting the cart before the horse.

Can man purify his own soul? Yes, in the sense of choosing to obey God's will. Those that do not choose to obey God's will cannot purify their own souls. The fact Peter said "you purified your souls" shows that man has a role in his own salvation (choosing to obey the truth) and salvation is not 100% God randomly, unconditionally choosing certain individuals over other individuals thereby making God a respecter of persons.

I guess this passage is completely ignored or spun in your Pelagian worldview?...

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
(Eph 2:1-3)

 

[prism]

I conclude that love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:8a) to give every man a free choice in the matter of whether he will obey the Lord unto salvation or disobey unto condemnation.

Answer me this.
Does fallen man have less of a 'free choice' than Adam had before the Fall or are you contending there was no change in man's constitution due to the Fall?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Knowing beforehand.

But it’s a verb, meaning God actually does something, not mere omniscience.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sure it is. I have kjv right in front of me, the words are written down, plain and simple.

You have a version of God’s word that was penned in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

 

[justbyfaith]

Answer me this.
Does fallen man have less of a 'free choice' than Adam had before the Fall

yes.

But it’s a verb, meaning God actually does something, not mere omniscience.

"to know" is a verb in the English language.

You have a version of God’s word that was penned in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

It was specifically printed in English...for the Lord in His sovereignty, Omnipotence and love has preserved the holy scriptures throughout the ages...and has specifically blessed the kjv.

 

[justbyfaith]

But it’s a verb, meaning God actually does something, not mere omniscience.

You have confused foreknowledge with predestination itself.

 

[logabe]

Romans 5:19 does NOT say all men are UNCONDITIONALLY condemned no more than it says all men will be UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous. Men conditionally become sinners when they choose to sin. Romans 5:12 does NOT say " so death passed upon all men, for that all have inherited Adam's sin". It DOES say " so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" The 'all have sinned' shows personal culpability of one's own sins.

Romans 8:20 says nothing at all about men being passively born sinners against his will.

So you are telling me it would be better for an infant to die before it sins. I am saying we
sin because of the judgment that was put upon Adam when he sinned. The wages of that
sin is death (mortality). Because Adam was the leader of the human race it effected us
even before we were born.

When Jerome translated the Latin Vulgate around 400 A.D., he rendered the last phrase
of Rom. 5:12, “because all have sinned” instead of “on which all sinned.”

The Jerome Biblical Commentary, page 307, admits that this translation has a serious
problem by making Paul contradict himself within the same verse:

“A difficulty often found with it is that it seems to make Paul say in 5:12c`-d something
contradictory to what he says in 12:a-b. In the beginning of the verse sin and death are
ascribed to Adam; now death seems to be due to man’s deeds.”

As Dr. Steven Jones says,

Jerome’s lack of understanding was passed down to most modern translators as well.
Very few realized that Paul was talking about two kinds of death: the first being the
result of Adam’s sin, and the second being the result of our own sin.

The point is that Adam’s transgression was reversed in Christ, whose righteousness
and righteous act on the cross brought life to all of creation. Both acts were done
outside of ourselves, not by our will. Likewise, even as we all shared in the
consequences of Adam’s sin before our wills had been formed, so also do we all share
in the salvation brought about by Christ’s righteous act, which was done apart from
our wills. Just as Adam’s sin resulted in every man’s death, so also Christ’s righteous
act resulted in every man being given life in the end.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Everyman is not given life.
Multitudes go into the second death

 

[prism]

yes

You agree that fallen man has less of a free choice than Adam had before the Fall yet carry on like he is not a slave to his sin and satan and does not need to be set free by the Son.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Get real!!! The second death is life in eternal separation from God in the eternal lake of fire!!!

 

[SovereignGrace]

You have confused foreknowledge with predestination itself.

For whom He did foreknow(Greek verb) He did predestinate. His foreknowledge is His election. Election and then predestination.

 

[SovereignGrace]

yes.



"to know" is a verb in the English language.

Exactly. He knows who He is going to save via His foreknowledge, AKA election.

It was specifically printed in English...for the Lord in His sovereignty, Omnipotence and love has preserved the holy scriptures throughout the ages...and has specifically blessed the kjv.

God has preserved His word down through the ages, and none would disagree. But let’s not put the KJV on a pedestal, okay?