Gods Standard is...

[amadeus]

That's fine for the "pie in the sky" hereafter... but what about the "here and now?" We still have a definite "standard", although most of us want to say it no longer applies to us.

Does God have an Absolute Truth [AT] held out for us as the standard to follow? Or... do some [most, all] people establish their own standards based on their own "take" from the written scriptures and/or with a bit of their own ideas thrown into the mix?

 

[amadeus]

Great topic!

To our non-Christian onlookers, this kind of thing must certainly be like shop-talk LOL.

Many don't have a clear grasp of what the world is, that it is God's creation, His masterpiece, and that His intended perfection includes the nuance of contrasting the good with the bad...which sounds bad, since that would seem to paint some people in a bad light. But that is incorrect--we are all bad, and yet He is making something beautiful out of dust and rock; where even the shards that fall on the studio floor have received life in the world, where they otherwise would not have...even if only in the world. And the idea that any little speck upon His palette has the opportunity to--by choice--become something more, something like God, something with God, something immortal...should just blow your mind!

So, yeah, perfection is the object--and you are so right...who but God could do all that?!

But then, in spite of what apostle wrote, we too often it seems want to compare ourselves with one another with idea perhaps of showing ourselves to be standing on top of the heap:

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

 

[amadeus]

Jesus is our ultimate standard and none of us are ever going to reach that, but with the Holy Spirit working in our lives we can rise above our starting point.

Above less than zero that is. Hopefully than will also result in something that at least above zero.

 

[amadeus]

The replies all sound nice and churchy... "Spiritual", even. But, none of them come close to itemizing the standards God so carefully gave to human beings. We already have them written out for us.... God spent a good deal of time and Bible space making sure there could be no mistakes for us...…. like vaguely and nebulously saying, "the standard is Jesus."

And the question asked by the OP was "God's Standard is".... not "Is Jesus perfect?"

Were they not itemized by someone in and for the OT to the tune of 613 without completion? Peter made it clear early on that this listing of rules or standards and following them was an impossible task:

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10

What is it that we should be looking for?

 

[APAK]

Perfection. And who BUT God is perfect? None. Jesus had to be God Himself, as only God is perfect...in ALL His ways. How could any BUT God incarnate atone for our sins? Anything less would not meet His standard. Jesus was/is perfect as God is perfect.
There is no other way ♥ How could any other than God Himself atone for our sin? Our redemption will only be complete through Gods standard...perfection through Him in the person of The Christ.
Thoughts?

Nancy, hi again..
We are ‘perfect(ed),’ in Christ, when we enter into him and live in that state. Jesus however was born human and already in the process of being perfect(ed) already being into his Father, according scripture. He had the mind of God. Jesus could never sin as his Father’s divine spirit inhabited him (his mind component of his spirit). Jesus’ desire (from the heart) to sin against his Father after being tempted never met the critical threshold. His Father ensured this outcome. How that actually worked or works takes a systems spiritual process engineer and we have none of them here on earth. That is one of many mysteries indeed.

No Jesus was not perfect, only his Father. Jesus made mistakes as any human being. He learned from his youth the ways of his Father; how to speak, what to say and how and when to say it. No, Jesus was not ‘good,’ only his divine Father as scripture records. Yes, Jesus was the acceptable, perfect(ed) and the chosen human that shed his innocent blood as the sacrifice for sin. I mean he was chosen and planned to exist in the future by his Father, eons before. And then anointed with power as the Messiah, the Son of God.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Nancy]

We will never "achieve" anything of ourself. Agree.

But we must come to the place of believing that what God says about us is what we are in His eyes. Therefore 'the truth'. Trouble comes when we vacillate between the two. Then the Enemy comes to us and tells us that we will never measure up, never be perfect, and we agree with him.

Whenever I am feeling like a loser I remind myself of Romans 6:11
“Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

We have to take ourself by the scruff of the neck and reckon ourself to be what God SAYS, not what we 'feel'.

Good thread

Yes Helen, very good "reminder" verse, Ty ♥ Even though Satan is def in the mix here, I will not give him too much credit. We are constantly battling sin that lives in us...do you win every battle? I do not, but the battles get easier and easier. I know that you do not think that you are perfect at all times either...I wish I understood those who think we are to "be perfect as your Father is perfect" as in the sense of being "sinless"...I see it all as loving God and neighbor, period...and all will (as we seek His Kingdom FIRST ) The higher we aim, the closer we will get but, I cannot see how it could ever be totally fulfilled in this world and in this flesh. Amen my sister ♥

 

[amadeus]

Jesus is perfection. His perfection is His gift to us. But that gift remains IN Him. We need to go to Him to get it. We walk in His life as we abide in Him. But this is very difficult because we love our lives too dearly. We don't want to surrender our lives for another person to take over...even if it is Jesus Himself. The cost is just too high.

So then consequently God's standards have been reduced to what we can do in our own power...at a safe distance from God...always learning and getting "better" but never able to enter into what is already waiting for us right now in His perfection by faith.

People like the free stuff...the easy way. We like that somewhere inside of us Jesus is alive and makes an occasional appearance (maybe on sundays?)

But there is a whole realm to walk in by grace through faith....which is in HIS world, His kingdom.

But which world do we feel attached to? Do we adopt God's kingdom as our own world? Do we adopt Jesus Christ as OUR identity? Will we really exchange our lives for His so that His light might shine through us?

Or do we only seek to benefit somehow by God's generosity...because He is selfless even if we choose not to be as He is...while leaving God to live in His world and we in ours?

What is a safe distance to keep God away from us...I mean so that we don't "lose" ourselves?

There is a walk which Jesus gives to us...already perfected...His walk which is ours by grace through faith. But it costs us everything to get through that narrow door and walk that walk. That's the problem. We want heaven...but not now.

We choose to live our own lives...in hope that God will be generous towards us even as we refuse to forsake what we already have...for Him.

Effectively people quite often [usually?] want to straddle the fence keeping one foot on God's side and the other on the side of mammon. We definitely need help so as NOT be spit out of His mouth...

 

[Helen]

I wish I understood those who think we are to "be perfect as your Father is perfect" as in the sense of being "sinless"...I see it all as loving God and neighbor, period...and all will (as we seek His Kingdom FIRST ) The higher we aim, the closer we will get but, I cannot see how it could ever be totally fulfilled in this world and in this flesh. Amen my sister ♥

Well half of me agrees and the other half argues.

I guess it all hang on WHERE we see our sin..on our shoulders or His.
If He says He took it, then He took it and remembers it no more. ( Heb 8:12)

And that is the power of forgiveness even for us. I can forget someone, but often not totally forget ( as with my hubby) I forgive him, but I have to choose not to remember!

I hated our anniversary for decades ( almost coming up for our 60th now)
I had forgiven him 'back then'. But the hurt remained. He was very late and drunk for our wedding day. So I never wanted to celebrate it with him...and every year reminded him what a horrible day he made it.
I held to the grudge. Finally a light bulb moment, God "does not remember" our sins.

So yes, I do understand those who says they have no sin. But discussing that get complicated and not for this thread subject haha!!
Plus our friend Mark (bbyrd009) would have a fainting fit and we can't have that happening.

 

[Nancy]

If no one but God is or has been "perfect", what of this verse?

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Job 1:1

Could it be that what man calls "perfect" differs from what God says "perfect" is?

Hi John,
From what I can glean from scripture and commentaries, the word "perfect" here means "properly complete"...I don't think it means sinless though.
Job 9:20
Job 9:15
Job 4:17
Job 15:5-6

 

[Enoch111]

No Jesus was not perfect, only his Father. Jesus made mistakes as any human being.

APAK has his own very unique Bible from which he obtained this nonsense.

However genuine Christians believe that Jesus is God, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit are God. Therefore perfect and also infallible (no mistakes).

 

[Pearl]

Nancy, hi again..
We are ‘perfect(ed),’ in Christ, when we enter into him and live in that state. Jesus however was born human and already in the process of being perfect(ed) already being into his Father, according scripture. He had the mind of God. Jesus could never sin as his Father’s divine spirit inhabited him (his mind component of his spirit). Jesus’ desire (from the heart) to sin against his Father after being tempted never met the critical threshold. His Father ensured this outcome. How that actually worked or works takes a systems spiritual process engineer and we have none of them here on earth. That is one of many mysteries indeed.

No Jesus was not perfect, only his Father. Jesus made mistakes as any human being. He learned from his youth the ways of his Father; how to speak, what to say and how and when to say it. No, Jesus was not ‘good,’ only his divine Father as scripture records. Yes, Jesus was the acceptable, perfect(ed) and the chosen human that shed his innocent blood as the sacrifice for sin. I mean he was chosen and planned to exist in the future by his Father, eons before. And then anointed with power as the Messiah, the Son of God.

Bless you,

APAK

But Jesus was sinless. Jesus was God incarnate so why wouldn't he be perfect?

 

[Pearl]

APAK has his own very unique Bible from which he obtained this nonsense.

However genuine Christians believe that Jesus is God, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit are God. Therefore perfect and also infallible (no mistakes).

I absolutely agree.

 

[Nancy]

Well half of me agrees and the other half argues.

I guess it all hang on WHERE we see our sin..on our shoulders or His.
If He says He took it, then He took it and remembers it no more. ( Heb 8:12)

And that is the power of forgiveness even for us. I can forget someone, but often not totally forget ( as with my hubby) I forgive him, but I have to choose not to remember!

I hated our anniversary for decades ( almost coming up for our 60th now)
I had forgiven him 'back then'. But the hurt remained. He was very late and drunk for our wedding day. So I never wanted to celebrate it with him...and every year reminded him what a horrible day he made it.
I held to the grudge. Finally a light bulb moment, God "does not remember" our sins.

So yes, I do understand those who says they have no sin. But discussing that get complicated and not for this thread subject haha!!
Plus our friend Mark (bbyrd009) would have a fainting fit and we can't have that happening.

"If He says He took it, then He took it and remembers it no more. ( Heb 8:12)" "As far as the East is from the West"!!! ♥♥♥

Yikes...drunk and late. Cold feet or what! I can understand why you never wanted to celebrate your anniversary Also, very happy that the light bulb went on!
Sixty years...whoa-that is quite the milestone, way to stick to those vows

"Plus our friend Mark (bbyrd009) would have a fainting fit and we can't have that happening. "
Hahaha...he has been giving me a run for my money lately...I try so hard to "get" what he's saying, sometimes I do, mostly, I don't
xo

 

[Nancy]

Nancy, hi again..
We are ‘perfect(ed),’ in Christ, when we enter into him and live in that state. Jesus however was born human and already in the process of being perfect(ed) already being into his Father, according scripture. He had the mind of God. Jesus could never sin as his Father’s divine spirit inhabited him (his mind component of his spirit). Jesus’ desire (from the heart) to sin against his Father after being tempted never met the critical threshold. His Father ensured this outcome. How that actually worked or works takes a systems spiritual process engineer and we have none of them here on earth. That is one of many mysteries indeed.
Well,
No Jesus was not perfect, only his Father. Jesus made mistakes as any human being. He learned from his youth the ways of his Father; how to speak, what to say and how and when to say it. No, Jesus was not ‘good,’ only his divine Father as scripture records. Yes, Jesus was the acceptable, perfect(ed) and the chosen human that shed his innocent blood as the sacrifice for sin. I mean he was chosen and planned to exist in the future by his Father, eons before. And then anointed with power as the Messiah, the Son of God.

Bless you,

APAK

Hi Apak!
"systems spiritual process engineer" Hahaha...well, when God tells us that He no longer uses "books" and has put "the books" on computer file, I'm sure He will bestow the gift of "systems spiritual process engineer"
Yes, Jesus DID have to learn, all things human from an infant on. It was only when the "time" was right that He came into His own, so to speak? Time for Him to die as a spotless and perfect sinless son of God.
"Jesus’ desire (from the heart) to sin against his Father after being tempted never met the critical threshold."
Okay, if Jesus was brought only part way in the human experience, how can we explain this:
Hebrews 2:18 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin."
"And then anointed with power as the Messiah, the Son of God."
And, Amen to that ♥
Nice to see you on here for a change Apak!

 

[faithfulness]

I try so hard to "get" what he's saying, sometimes I do, mostly, I don't

Me too, Nancy! He's certainly a UNIQUE brother we luv

 

[Willie T]

What's wrong with that? Where would you direct them?

Please tell me that wasn't a serious reply. LOL

 

[Nancy]

Me too, Nancy! He's certainly a UNIQUE brother we luv

Hahah...yes indeed I love that guy. And, unique is right!

 

[faithfulness]

Hahah...yes indeed I love that guy. And, unique is right!

And humble! for real

 

[Pearl]

Please tell me that wasn't a serious reply. LOL

Of course it was. I really want to know where you would direct them. I wouldn't have asked otherwise. But it's ok if you don't want to answer.

 

[Episkopos]

Gods Standard is...the fruit of the Spirit by entering into His rest...not us trying harder to be more Christian by our own power and effort to be good.