Gods Standard is...

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amadeus

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Hi John,
From what I can glean from scripture and commentaries, the word "perfect" here means "properly complete"...I don't think it means sinless though.
Job 9:20
Job 9:15
Job 4:17
Job 15:5-6
And I have never said that perfect means sinless. Perfect to God at the moment is not necessarily sinless, but eventually we will achieve even that [sinless] if we can get to the point of always be led by the Holy Spirit... which will mean for sure, praying without ceasing and rejoicing in the Lord always. We must always be growing toward God. How long can we stop and expect God to overlook our faults?

I believe that David had a perfect heart because when confronted with his errors [his sins] he was always ready to pay the required price, which for either adultery or murder [he was guilty on both counts] was death. Yet, God sent the prophet Nathan to him with a definite punishment , but it was NOT death. That was due to his perfect heart.
 
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amadeus

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But Jesus was sinless. Jesus was God incarnate so why wouldn't he be perfect?
Whatever Jesus was, he was tempted in all points even as we [see Heb 4:15]. To me "tempted" means he could have sinned. He was flesh. He did not sin because he walked always in the Holy Spirit from the day he was born to Mary in Bethlehem. No other man has ever done that [or could have]. Because of Jesus it is possible for us to approach the walk that Jesus walked. Consider what he said to John and James:

"And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with..." Matt 20:23

Jesus recognized that they would do it in spite of their shortcomings. To me that meant that their hearts, if not perfect at that moment, would be before they had finished their course as men of flesh walking through temptation.
 

amadeus

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Nancy, hi again..
We are ‘perfect(ed),’ in Christ, when we enter into him and live in that state. Jesus however was born human and already in the process of being perfect(ed) already being into his Father, according scripture. He had the mind of God. Jesus could never sin as his Father’s divine spirit inhabited him (his mind component of his spirit). Jesus’ desire (from the heart) to sin against his Father after being tempted never met the critical threshold. His Father ensured this outcome. How that actually worked or works takes a systems spiritual process engineer and we have none of them here on earth.:D That is one of many mysteries indeed.

No Jesus was not perfect, only his Father. Jesus made mistakes as any human being. He learned from his youth the ways of his Father; how to speak, what to say and how and when to say it. No, Jesus was not ‘good,’ only his divine Father as scripture records. Yes, Jesus was the acceptable, perfect(ed) and the chosen human that shed his innocent blood as the sacrifice for sin. I mean he was chosen and planned to exist in the future by his Father, eons before. And then anointed with power as the Messiah, the Son of God.

Bless you,

APAK
One point my friend. Jesus never denied being good. Consider this verse:

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matt 19:17

Jesus asked the man a question and then answered... but was not God in Jesus... and to the extent He was, to that extent Jesus was not Jesus good? Read this verse:

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:21
 
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APAK

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One point my friend. Jesus never denied being good. Consider this verse:

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matt 19:17

Jesus asked the man a question and then answered... but was not God in Jesus... and to the extent He was, to that extent Jesus was not Jesus good? Read this verse:

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:21

Yes that is true, indeed. And what you have added in your response is what I also said to support he was 'good' because of these things and more...that 'made' him good....
After his death and his resurrection he became truly perfect according to his Father and not before that time.

friend..

APAK
 

APAK

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But Jesus was sinless. Jesus was God incarnate so why wouldn't he be perfect?

Pearl, because Jesus was not born perfect and was perfected through humility and suffering and on the cross, and he became perfect after his resurrection, the thought that Jesus was God incarnate suddenly becomes an absurd idea....

Bless you,

APAK
 

Pearl

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Pearl, because Jesus was not born perfect and was perfected through humility and suffering and on the cross, and he became perfect after his resurrection, the thought that Jesus was God incarnate suddenly becomes an absurd idea....

Bless you,

APAK
What church do you belong to APAK? Are you saying that God's Son, Immanuel, was not perfect?
 

101G

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Pearl, because Jesus was not born perfect and was perfected through humility and suffering and on the cross, and he became perfect after his resurrection, the thought that Jesus was God incarnate suddenly becomes an absurd idea....

Bless you,

APAK
GINOLJC, to all.
first, we have a question, "was Jesus born or his flesh that he came in was BORN?".

PICJAG.
 

Pearl

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GINOLJC, to all.
first, we have a question, "was Jesus born or his flesh that he came in was BORN?".

PICJAG.
Mary was pregnant and gave birth so of course he was born.
 

bbyrd009

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C'mon Mark, do YOU think that YOU will actually achieve perfection while in this earthly body?
Um no, and i think that is precisely the point, mostly because your description of perfection is never going to be anyone else's? An emerging theory is that autists are I think it's right brain deficient, while aspergers are left bd, but really a point there is that we are "two men." even though that would maybe be a physiological "two men" rather than the spiritual one?

The point being that we all fall somewhere along a spectrum, most ppl being in the fat part of the curve, but some out on the edges. And the likely cause of a lot of the "rise of autism" might be in the rise in diagnosing something that we've always had with us and even need genetically.

But part of the theory suggests that any actual rise in ppl out on the ends is passed down genetically, from observations of the parents of the subjects, who are observed to each contribute some traits to their kid, just like they did their "non" asd children.

So iow autists' families are observed to exhibit more autistic traits while asp families do the same, even if they, the "non" family members, are considered to be in the fat part of the bell.

Which converting that to the spiritual Two Men is a different story, but i bring it up not because i'm prolly mildly skewed to asp, but bc it's safe to say that everyone could conceivably be "diagnosed" in this framework, iow their spot on the spectrum (coat of many colors) could be observed and derived and a "diagnosis" given, which since i'm here i may as well say i recommend self-doing-this, even though coat of many colors is also meant to illustrate a spiritual principle, too; the one that deals with accepting the spectrum maybe

The point being to develop a map, pathway to walking out of the world the same way we walked in, should we even want to do that. So in English that might be saying that we interpret Scripture along a spectrum too, fairly obvious, only our def of "perfect" is not our Father's, and "nons" may tend to choose partners that dominate the other side of the bell curve, but they might also choose partners from their side, no homo, if you get me.

Now again we aren't talking about the spiritual Two Men, it might be argued, until we start reflecting on what we're or at least i'm talking about, as you think, so are you maybe.

You are perfect just like you are, i guess. And any what we might call "aberrations" in behavior or even "sins" could actually be masking unique insights that can only be brought out by forgiveness and acceptance
 
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Episkopos

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Pearl, because Jesus was not born perfect and was perfected through humility and suffering and on the cross, and he became perfect after his resurrection, the thought that Jesus was God incarnate suddenly becomes an absurd idea....

Bless you,

APAK

Not at all. Jesus was fully human as well as fully God. As such His "previous" perfection was not as a man but as a Spirit. The experience of suffering through what we go through was necessary in order for Him to become the author of OUR salvation. Jesus didn't need saving...we do!

God can't just snap His fingers and change our natures. It must be experiential and by choice. God follows the laws and parameters He has set for mankind...by sending His Son to fulfill ALL those parameters...as a man. Otherwise mankind is lost. God loved the world and wanted to redeem it back to Himself. This was fulfilled in Christ.

Jesus joined divinity to humanity...otherwise we would always be trapped in an old nature. We would never know the fellowship of God...who is holy and without sin. Now, In Him we can walk as He walked...without sin. In His power and presence. THAT is the standard of Christ and one who believes INTO Jesus.

The problem for us is that it is by faith...we need to go to Him and enter into Him. Jesus did not bestow a new nature on all creation...although it is available to all.

This is the salvation which is by grace through faith...to walk as Jesus walked. As He is so are we in this world.

No human can enter into another person to live a life through them. No man can do that. But we can enter into Jesus Christ and be lived through by Him. Hence the divine nature. Jesus is MORE than human. His origin is divine...imparting His nature to those who are in Him..becoming for us a "life giving Spirit."

1 Cor. 15:45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

The first Adam was the first of his kind...a mortal man. Jesus Christ was also the first of His kind...the Son of God making many sons of God.
 
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Episkopos

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What's with the "achieving" perfection shtick? Jesus already did that. Where is the faith in Him? We simply enter into Jesus in order to partake of HIS perfection. Jesus is our perfection. He did it. So then all we need to do is to enter into Him so we can walk as He walked by abiding IN Christ.

When we put on Christ we are putting on HIS armour...His life...His holiness and righteousness.

No longer I, but Christ.

But people still talk about us achieving something by human effort. It's all wrong of course.

Where is the faith?

We exchange our weakness for His strength. An exchanged life. We give up our all to take on His all.
 
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101G

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Mary was pregnant and gave birth so of course he was born.
his body was born, but JESUS was not, for he is... or may we say existed before his body, before Mary, and before the world began. the spirit is not "BORN", but Given. and even his body was not conceived by any natural human, but was "born" of a woman.

many christian do not understand the difference between “Took Part” in our humanity, and “Partake” in our humanity. The Lord Jesus “Took Part” in our humanity, and was not a “Partaker” in it. He is without father and without mother, STOP right there, did one see the truth? He became “LIKE” us so that we might become “LIKE” him. Scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God”. the Lord Jesus nature is Spirit, (which was G2758 κενόω kenoo by himself), and he took on the LIKNESS of men. Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men”. there it is …. “Likeness”.

Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man”.
There are only three, 3 entities. 1 God, 2 angels, and 3 us, humans. Well if he was made lower than the angels, then he was higher than the angels before. Which means he’s God, and he came in flesh. So he’s before his flesh nature, which means his nature is not human. but by taking on human flesh and blood be became "LIKE" us. let's see it.

Hebrews 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people”. Again “made like”, not is. Now back to Philippians 2:

Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, (one cannot be found if not already existing), he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross”. as, as, as, a man, not a man, but as a man. he humble himself. What God did was put on working clothes, or a vesture, or a garment, to do the dirty job of cleaning us sin in the world.

Now that he ”took on” our nature, to redeem us from sin, so that we can be made “partaker” of his "DIVINE" nature. Supportive scripture, 2 Peter 1:2 "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2 Peter 1:3 "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue
2 Peter 1:4 "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

One might want to get an understanding of “Took Part” vs “Partake”

PICJAG.
 
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Pearl

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his body was born, but JESUS was not, for he is... or may we say existed before his body, before Mary, and before the world began. the spirit is not "BORN", but Given. and even his body was not conceived by any natural human, but was "born" of a woman.

many christian do not understand the difference between “Took Part” in our humanity, and “Partake” in our humanity. The Lord Jesus “Took Part” in our humanity, and was not a “Partaker” in it. He is without father and without mother, STOP right there, did one see the truth? He became “LIKE” us so that we might become “LIKE” him. Scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God”. the Lord Jesus nature is Spirit, (which was G2758 κενόω kenoo by himself), and he took on the LIKNESS of men. Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men”. there it is …. “Likeness”.

Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man”.
There are only three, 3 entities. 1 God, 2 angels, and 3 us, humans. Well if he was made lower than the angels, then he was higher than the angels before. Which means he’s God, and he came in flesh. So he’s before his flesh nature, which means his nature is not human. but by taking on human flesh and blood be became "LIKE" us. let's see it.

Hebrews 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people”. Again “made like”, not is. Now back to Philippians 2:

Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, (one cannot be found if not already existing), he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross”. as, as, as, a man, not a man, but as a man. he humble himself. What God did was put on working clothes, or a vesture, or a garment, to do the dirty job of cleaning us sin in the world.

Now that he ”took on” our nature, to redeem us from sin, so that we can be made “partaker” of his "DIVINE" nature. Supportive scripture, 2 Peter 1:2 "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2 Peter 1:3 "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue
2 Peter 1:4 "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

One might want to get an understanding of “Took Part” vs “Partake”

PICJAG.
Well I think we were all spirit before we were born.
Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
 

bbyrd009

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And I have never said that perfect means sinless. Perfect to God at the moment is not necessarily sinless, but eventually we will achieve even that [sinless] if we can get to the point of always be led by the Holy Spirit... which will mean for sure, praying without ceasing and rejoicing in the Lord always. We must always be growing toward God. How long can we stop and expect God to overlook our faults?

I believe that David had a perfect heart because when confronted with his errors [his sins] he was always ready to pay the required price, which for either adultery or murder [he was guilty on both counts] was death. Yet, God sent the prophet Nathan to him with a definite punishment , but it was NOT death. That was due to his perfect heart.
He maybe died when he committed the sins, but was able to confess, would you say?
 

Nancy

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Um no, and i think that is precisely the point, mostly because your description of perfection is never going to be anyone else's? An emerging theory is that autists are I think it's right brain deficient, while aspergers are left bd, but really a point there is that we are "two men." even though that would maybe be a physiological "two men" rather than the spiritual one?

The point being that we all fall somewhere along a spectrum, most ppl being in the fat part of the curve, but some out on the edges. And the likely cause of a lot of the "rise of autism" might be in the rise in diagnosing something that we've always had with us and even need genetically.

But part of the theory suggests that any actual rise in ppl out on the ends is passed down genetically, from observations of the parents of the subjects, who are observed to each contribute some traits to their kid, just like they did their "non" asd children.

So iow autists' families are observed to exhibit more autistic traits while asp families do the same, even if they, the "non" family members, are considered to be in the fat part of the bell.

Which converting that to the spiritual Two Men is a different story, but i bring it up not because i'm prolly mildly skewed to asp, but bc it's safe to say that everyone could conceivably be "diagnosed" in this framework, iow their spot on the spectrum (coat of many colors) could be observed and derived and a "diagnosis" given, which since i'm here i may as well say i recommend self-doing-this, even though coat of many colors is also meant to illustrate a spiritual principle, too.

The point being to develop a map, pathway to walking out of the world the same way we walked in, should we even want to do that. So in English that might be saying that we interpret Scripture along a spectrum too, fairly obvious, only our def of "perfect" is not our Father's, and "nons" may tend to choose partners that dominate the other side of the bell curve, but they might also choose partners from their side, no homo, if you get me.

Now again we aren't talking about the spiritual Two Men, it might be argued, until we start reflecting on what we're or at least i'm talking about, as you think, so are you maybe.

You are perfect just like you are, i guess. And any what we might call "aberrations" in behavior or even "sins" could be dang best part coming lol brb

Hi Mark,
My OP is really pretty simple. Our Gods standard IS perfection...AND since we, humans will NEVER meet that standard, He had to sacrifice Himself (Christ) as there are zero perfect beings BUT God Himself, and if a sacrifice to God is not perfect...it is not accepted. When we enter into Jesus, God sees us as Perfect-only through the lens of Jesus. I know several of you do not believe that Jesus was God incarnate. If He was not then, HOW could he have lived a sinless life and BE our spotless and without blemish PERFECT sacrifice. I never said, and at least don't think I even hinted that a human being will achieve perfection in this world. I know there are differing definitions of "perfect" in the bible, but God is perfect in ALL His ways ♥ As far as walking into the "world" would be like taking a step over the Niagara Gorge! It took me quite some years to "step out of the world"...and I will never look back. I did my share of living as the world does and it has only left a bad taste in my mouth...many have tried to drag me back into it but, they gave up a long time ago, lol. Of course, they don't call me anymore and that is fine...I realized they never really were "friends", just bar acquaintances anyway. So, I don't believe a person can be perfect, in this life...ever ♥
 

101G

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Well I think we were all spirit before we were born.
Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
(smile) .... Correct, and this spirit we have in our bodies returns to the "Spirit" who gives it. scripture, Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein". and when that spirit is taken away, or the cord of "real life" is broken, (see Ecclesiastes 12:6), it returnes to God who gave it.

understand a woman cannot birth a spirit, it's inmateral, nothing to push aganist.

now edification, when a woman gives "birth", or flesh is "BORN" it live not until the breath of life is given it.

what we're about to say is not intended to be recieved in a wrong way, so please forgive me if any woman experenced what is about to be said. when a baby is born, and have not the breath of life, it's called "Still Born", no life. let's see this in scripture, Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" when the breath of life is given. understand "Life", Natural life is in the Blood, (see Lev 17:11), but without the breath of life a spirit is not given, hence "still born". so Eve is correct in saying "I have gotten a man from the LORD", (Gen 4:1). for it is the LORD who opens wombs, and "GIVE" life. blood is only a temporal "natural" life.

Hope this helped.

PICJAG