Good Works Vs Works Of The Law

[GracePeace]

...love fulfills the law. (Romans 13:8-10) We are not saved by specific works of the law or good works, that still cannot be dissected from the moral aspect of the law found in the two great commandments.

The interesting thing, to me, is that a good amount of the content does not differ terribly (there're differences--Jesus countermands the Torah numerous times in Matthew 5 and in Matthew 19--but when Paul asks whether the Jewish believers in the Roman Church Romans 2:21-22 are "doing the Law" (which their believing Gentile counterparts are "doers of" Romans 2:13-15 Romans 2:26-27) he inquires about basics like theft adultery and idolatry)--so much so that, as everyone notes, the works Christians are to do "fulfill the Law"--which is why I think what counts is who is doing it, since "the Law was weak in that it relied upon sinful flesh" and "are you now being perfected by the flesh [by going "under Law"]?", whereas what he really wants, after everything is said and done, is for people to walk by "faith which works through love" and "through love serve one another".
This seems to echo his death to Law and aliveness to God Galatians 2:19--either the heart is conformed to the Law (a stone heart) or it is conformed to God (a flesh heart).

 

[Curtis]

I'd like to put this up for debate, because I noticed something interesting about the following passage of scripture in Ephesians just this morning. I have always understood the phraseology used by Paul that "we are not saved by works" to refer specifically to not being saved by observing the works of the law, such as observing circumcision and Jewish unclean food laws.

Well if you look at the passage in context this seems to confirm it, because he immediately follows the phrase stating we are "not saved by works [of the law]" by adding that we are "created unto good works."

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

After noticing this, I am all the more convinced that the principle of us "not being saved by works" applies specifically to not being saved by keeping the works of the Jewish law, since they have no effect on things. Good works, however, are precisely what we have been created in Christ Jesus for, so leaving these things out of the equation would be to defeat the very purpose of the grace Paul was talking about here.

I invite friendly debate.
Hidden In Him.

That’s exactly what Paul means.

Whenever he uses the terms: works, or the law, he’s always talking about works of the law of Moose’s.

Most people have zero clue about works, or what the term means to Paul.


When Paul said we are saved by grace, via faith, not by works, he was specifically talking about works of the law of Moses.


Anytime in his epistles Paul mentions the law, it’s always about the body of law with its 613 regulations, called the law of Moses.


We’re not saved by works of the law of Moses, therefore we don’t have to eat kosher foods, sacrifice animals, or any of the other 611 rules that are in it.


People ignorantly think anything a believer must do is a work, then cite Ephesians 2:8-9 and claim there’s nothing at all a believer is required to do.


James on the other hand, talks about works, but not works of the law of Moses.


That there are two different kinds of works explains the apparent contradiction between Paul writing that Abraham was justified apart from works, and James writing that Abraham WAS justified by works, as are ALL MEN.


In fact works were part of Abraham’s justification and perfected his faith.


Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?


Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT?


Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is JUSTIFIED and NOT by faith ONLY.


Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?


Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Above, it states that though Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him as righteousness, his works of obedience in sacrificing his son Isaac (as a test, before God stopped him), was an integral part of his justification, and his works perfected his faith.


There are works of obedience we are to do, as believers, (apart from the law of Moses), as part of justification.


And we’re required to bear fruit, but that’s probably off topic.

 

[Curtis]

The Law was never binding on anyone but Jews Romans 2:12 Romans 2:14---Jews are released from their obligation to serve by Law when they die Romans 7:1-6 and Talmud Niddah 61b. Gentiles ought never have been brought under Law at all after having been saved--it was a false Gospel.

Except Paul wrote that the law still applies to the unsaved, because it wasn’t made for a righteous man, but for the ungodly, for sinners, etc - but that Christians die to the law and are delivered from the law, because we are righteous by faith.

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Shalom.

 

[mailmandan]

People ignorantly think anything a believer must do is a work, then cite Ephesians 2:8-9 and claim there’s nothing at all a believer is required to do. James on the other hand, talks about works, but not works of the law of Moses.

So you also teach salvation by works? Do you believe that "not saved by works/not by works of righteousness (literally, works done in righteousness) which we have done/not according to our works" (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) strictly applies to specific works of the law/eating kosher foods, animals sacrifices, or any of the other 611 rules that are in it, but has absolutely nothing to do with good works in general? So you teach we are saved by "these" works (good works/works of obedience) and just not "those" works (specific works of the law). Are you Roman Catholic? That's what they teach. So where does Paul specifically say that we are "saved by works" of any kind? Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (apart from additions or modifications) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

That there are two different kinds of works explains the apparent contradiction between Paul writing that Abraham was justified apart from works, and James writing that Abraham WAS justified by works, as are ALL MEN.

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show or prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

In fact works were part of Abraham’s justification and perfected his faith.

So you are saying that Abraham was accounted as righteous "in part" based on his works? That's not what we read in Romans 4:2-3.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's is dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lacks resulting evidential works (James 2:14) then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT?

Faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is JUSTIFIED and NOT by faith ONLY.

James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous and not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

Above, it states that though Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him as righteousness, his works of obedience in sacrificing his son Isaac (as a test, before God stopped him), was an integral part of his justification, and his works perfected his faith.

So was it 50% faith and 50% works that saved Abraham or maybe 75% faith and 25% works?

There are works of obedience we are to do, as believers, (apart from the law of Moses), as part of justification.

So how many works of obedience must we accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us in part? Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6)

And we’re required to bear fruit, but that’s probably off topic.

All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who merely claim to have faith, yet produce no fruit at all (James 2:14) demonstrate they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not saving faith in Christ.

 

[GracePeace]

@Curtis

Please, consider : the discussion is about how "works of Law" differ from "good works", and some users--users to whom every discussion appears to be a nail, because all they have is a hammer--find it difficult to stay on topic.

Thanks.

 

[mailmandan]

@Curtis

Please, consider : the discussion is about how "works of Law" differ from "good works", and some users--users to whom every discussion appears to be a nail, because all they have is a hammer--find it difficult to stay on topic.

Thanks.

True or False. When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the two great commandments. (Matthew 22:37-40; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; James 2:15-16)

 

[GracePeace]

True or False. When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the two great commandments. (Matthew 22:37-40; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

As far as I understand it, the author of the OP believes like I do, and not like you--ie, he doesn't believe in OSAS--therefore, I understand where he's coming from with this question (because our beliefs lead to the same line of questioning--ie, I've wondered about it myself).

He hasn't had time to respond (he said he was busy), but I've already responded to this thread, and if you want to understand where people like us are coming from, you can read those responses (since you are joining a discussion--I really don't want to have to repeat everything I've already stated).

 

[GracePeace]

True or False. When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the two great commandments. (Matthew 22:37-40; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; James 2:15-16)

Quick answer (already given in thread) :
"Works of Law" includes the "moral aspect"--Romans 3:19-20 say "...justified by the works of the Law... for by the Law comes the knowledge of sin" (whenever the Law informs you as to what sin is, you know a "work of the Law" is discussed), then Romans 7:7 says "for I would not have known what it was to covet lest the Law had said 'do not covet'."

"Do not covet" is one of the 10 Commandments.

 

[mailmandan]

As far as I understand it, the author of the OP believes like I do, and not like you--ie, he doesn't believe in OSAS--therefore, I understand where he's coming from with this question (because our beliefs lead to the same line of questioning--ie, I've wondered about it myself).

He hasn't had time to respond (he said he was busy), but I've already responded to this thread, and if you want to understand where people like us are coming from, you can read those responses (since you are joining a discussion--I really don't want to have to repeat everything I've already stated).

So you’re not going to answer my question? You only seem interested in your relentless attack against OSAS, which seems to have become an obsession with you.

 

[mailmandan]

So you’re not going to answer my question? You only seem interested in your relentless attack against OSAS, which seems to have become an obsession with you.

Oh I see that you did answer my question after a brief pause. Thank you.

 

[GracePeace]

So you’re not going to answer my question? You only seem interested in your relentless attack against OSAS, which seems to have become an obsession with you.

To repeat myself : "read the thread".

 

[GracePeace]

Oh I see that you did answer my question after a brief pause. Thank you.

You are joining a discussion.
The discussion is in progress.
If you want to know the views of those in the discussion, it would be courteous for you to inform yourself by reading the discussion rather than asking everyone to repeat themselves.

I don't think that is an unreasonable request.

 

[GracePeace]

So you’re not going to answer my question? You only seem interested in your relentless attack against OSAS, which seems to have become an obsession with you.

Sir, all you have is a hammer so everything looks like a nail to you.

Go look at all the threads I'm involved in and how few of them revolve around OSAS.

You don't know what you're saying--either about OSAS or about me.

 

[mailmandan]

Sir, all you have is a hammer so everything looks like a nail to you.

Go look at all the threads I'm involved in and how few of them revolve around OSAS.

You don't know what you're saying--either about OSAS or about me.

You are joining a discussion.
The discussion is in progress.
If you want to know the views of those in the discussion, it would be courteous for you to inform yourself by reading the discussion rather than asking everyone to repeat themselves.

I don't think that is an unreasonable request.

I have looked at the views and have considered them. You come across as anything but courteous.

 

[GracePeace]

I have looked at the views and have considered them.

Thanks, not sure why you had to ask then.

You come across as anything but courteous.

You don't like my views.
That's fine.

 

[amadeus]

I don't believe washing cups on the outside or on the inside or both will save someone.
We can't "work" our way into heaven...

But do you suppose we could surrender our way to get there? How many surrenders would it take? Help us dear Lord!

 

[michaelvpardo]

Matthew 19:16-17
The Rich Young Man

16 iAnd behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to jhave keternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. lIf you would enter life, kep the commandments.”

So, pretty clear there as far as what part of the law we need to keep, and I guess that would be a form of works.

Another form of works that Jesus said was an absolute must or endure Hell, was to take care of/help others, something that is covered in the scripture on the Sheep and Goats. Then there is scripture that covers it by simply saying we need to do good, or else...John 5:28.

So we have the comnandments, and Jesus's commandment that actually covers all of them, but for those of us that still may not get it, there are a few lists of rules and comments from Christ throughout the new testament.

New Testament, very important read if for no other reason than that.

It isn't clear at all because Jesus was speaking to an audience of Jews under the law of Moses (and under its curses). In the post Pentecost discussions between Paul the Apostle to the gentile church, and the elders of the church in Jerusalem, the elders placed no requirements from the law upon the gentiles other than they abstain from sexual immorality and the eating of foods offered to idols.

 

[Ziggy]

But do you suppose we could surrender our way to get there? How many surrenders would it take? Help us dear Lord!

One
We surrender our lives to serve Him.
Hugs

 

[amadeus]

I would also point out, this spiritual fruit is not our fruit, it is the Holy Spirit's fruit. These things resulf from His Presence in me. It's not something I'm doing.

Much love!

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

 

[amadeus]

One
We surrender our lives to serve Him.
Hugs

Yes, if the surrender is absolute and covers every possibility!