Good Works Vs Works Of The Law

[GracePeace]

Guys @amadeus @Ziggy

Please consider that "salvation by works or faith" or "can salvation be lost?" are not the topic, and that, to keep this discussion from fraying, perhaps you could reserve those discussions for threads about salvation.

 

[TheslightestID]

It isn't clear at all because Jesus was speaking to an audience of Jews under the law of Moses (and under its curses). In the post Pentecost discussions between Paul the Apostle to the gentile church, and the elders of the church in Jerusalem, the elders placed no requirements from the law upon the gentiles other than they abstain from sexual immorality and the eating of foods offered to idols.

Its clear to me Jesus was talking to people in general. Jesus never once indicated a difference between jew and gentiles there.

He said follow the commandments...period.

 

[amadeus]

Guys @amadeus @Ziggy

Please consider that "salvation by works or faith" or "can salvation be lost?" are not the topic, and that, to keep this discussion from fraying, perhaps you could reserve those discussions for threads about salvation.

While I certainly hear what you are saying, it is not so easy to disconnect them.

Then again three times at least I have read the OP of my friend, @Hidden In Him without fully understanding the context. HIH, you need to try to separate the verses and/or paragraphs of your post to make it easier to follow. Each time I would lose my place and have to go back and reread it...LOL.

What does come to my mind here, is that God alone is 'good' as per Jesus so any good works done by anyone, [if they are good in the eyes of God] came from that one good source, right? If we are in the Spirit of God and following the Spirit of God all of the time, then any works that we do should be good ones.

On the other hand, anyone simply trying to follow the black and white laws as written in the OT, given to the children of Israel through Moses may accomplish some 'good' works if their hearts are pointed in the right direction. What is it in us that decides which direction to point ourselves? Jeremiah, an OT prophet wrote this:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

An OT psalmist penned these words:

"Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!" Psalm 119:2-5

Whether a person was born into those tribes of Israel following Moses or 'born again' today, has not God always been looking for those being led toward the 'good' things? Has God not always been pondering what is in our heart and what we are doing with what we have? God has never changed. Man has always been a beastly creature until and if he has reached sincerely out to God for help...

The good works of the law or the good works according to the Spirit, in God eyes would be the same, would they not? What is Jesus saying in the following verse?

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Matt 5:6

When he spoke those words did they not apply to everyone, without regard to when or where they were born in the flesh? Was no one in the OT living before Jesus was born in Bethlehem ever filled according to those words? Was not that filling as 'good' for the shepherd boy David, son of Jesse as it was for Saul [Paul] of Tarsis?

Were the blessings of God more or less good for the one than for the other?

 

[Osiris]

When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, we cannot dissect good works from the law and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) but just not "those" works (works of the law). In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good works" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. So which good works could a Christian accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

Elsewhere, in Titus 3:5, Paul states that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul states that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works..

So it is not merely observing the works of the law that does not save us, but works in general. We are saved FOR good works and not by good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Nowhere does the Bible teach that we are saved by faith and works.

How does one be saved if they are dead??
James 2:20But wilt thou know, Ovain man, that faith without worksis dead?
Jas 2:21 - Was not Abraham ourfather justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 - Seest thou how faithwrought with his works, and byworks was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 - And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abrahambelieved God, and it was imputedunto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 - Ye see then how thatby works a man is justified, and notby faith only.
Jas 2:25 - Likewise also was notRahab the harlot justified by works,when she had received the messengers, and had sent themout another way?
Jas 2:26 - For as the bodywithout the spirit is dead, so faithwithout works is dead also.

 

[mailmandan]

How does one be saved if they are dead??
James 2:20But wilt thou know, Ovain man, that faith without worksis dead?
Jas 2:21 - Was not Abraham ourfather justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 - Seest thou how faithwrought with his works, and byworks was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 - And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abrahambelieved God, and it was imputedunto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 - Ye see then how thatby works a man is justified, and notby faith only.
Jas 2:25 - Likewise also was notRahab the harlot justified by works,when she had received the messengers, and had sent themout another way?
Jas 2:26 - For as the bodywithout the spirit is dead, so faithwithout works is dead also.

See post #374 from the link below:

Forgiveness is to those who keep the commandments of the Lord.

 

[Osiris]

See post #374 from the link below:

Forgiveness is to those who keep the commandments of the Lord.

Your problem is reading to much into it with possible false translation or misguiding translations like the ESV . It’s imperative to comparative text translations. But neither here nor there. The body with out the spirit is dead so is faith without works is dead. Is clearly comparing just like if you have no spirit you are dead, lifeless. Then You cannot have everlasting life without faith and works... you will die.

 

[Osiris]

See post #374 from the link below:

Forgiveness is to those who keep the commandments of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 4:1
Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.”


Explain why god is giving statues and judgements and telling Israel to do them? Is that faith or works ?

 

[mailmandan]

Deuteronomy 4:1
Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.”

Explain why god is giving statues and judgements and telling Israel to do them? Is that faith or works ?

Don’t confuse the old covenant with the new covenant.

 

[Osiris]

Don’t confuse the old covenant with the new covenant.

You don’t be confounded. We are not under the new convenient until israel meets the terms and conditions and Christ returns to bring Israel to new Jerusalem . Unless you believe he has return all ready and all is fulfilled. Meaning heaven and earth have passed away. Idk you tell me haha. Old covenant new covenant we are under the laws of God. The covenants pertain only to Israel according to the flesh anyway so lord willing I’m a part of that number. And I pray and study diligently to make my election sure in these last days. How to do that by works of the law . That be the only way faith is justified. And vice versa

 

[Curtis]

So you are saying that Abraham was accounted as righteous "in part" based on his works? That's not what we read in Romans 4:2-3.

That’s what scripture says, and I cited that scripture, which you left out of your attempt at rebuttal.

And who wrote Romans? Paul. The same Paul, who is always referring to works of the law of Moses, whenever he mentions works, or the law, or works of righteousness, he’s always referring to that - which was my point about wrongly claiming Paul said we have nothing at all required of us as believers. So you’ve inadvertently proved my point by wrongly interpreting the meaning of Paul’s writing that mentions works.

 

[mailmandan]

That’s what scripture says, and I cited that scripture, which you left out of your attempt at rebuttal.

And who wrote Romans? Paul. The same Paul, who is always referring to works of the law of Moses, whenever he mentions works, or the law, or works of righteousness, he’s always referring to that - which was my point about wrongly claiming Paul said we have nothing at all required of us as believers. So you’ve inadvertently proved my point by wrongly interpreting the meaning of Paul’s writing that mentions works.

I did not leave out scripture and I properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. It’s you who has wrongly interpreted the meaning of Paul’s and James’ writings on works in regards to justification and the end result is salvation by works in contradiction to scripture. Are you a Roman Catholic?

 

[mailmandan]

You don’t be confounded. We are not under the new convenient until israel meets the terms and conditions and Christ returns to bring Israel to new Jerusalem . Unless you believe he has return all ready and all is fulfilled. Meaning heaven and earth have passed away. Idk you tell me haha. Old covenant new covenant we are under the laws of God. The covenants pertain only to Israel according to the flesh anyway so lord willing I’m a part of that number. And I pray and study diligently to make my election sure in these last days. How to do that by works of the law . That be the only way faith is justified. And vice versa

See Galatians 2:16.

 

[kcnalp]

Works of the Law has nothing to do with Christianity!

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

 

[Curtis]

So how many works of obedience must we accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us in part? Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6)

Everyone of them found in the Bible, that pertain to NT believers.

You think there’s nothing required of us as believers, such as the fact that Paul taught that remaining in Christ is conditional on continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and continuing to walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh, or that Jesus didn’t say, you are my friends IF you do what I command you to do, nor say we must bear fruit or be cut off from Him as a dead branch - yet Jesus said what we do in our bodies, good or bad, will send us to heaven or hell:

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What we do, even as believers, is part of our judgment by God, said Jesus.

Faith without obedience is dead.

 

[mailmandan]

Everyone of them found in the Bible, that pertain to NT believers.

You think there’s nothing required of us as believers, such as the fact that Paul taught that remaining in Christ is conditional on continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and continuing to walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh, or that Jesus didn’t say, you are my friends IF you do what I command you to do, nor say we must bear fruit or be cut off from Him as a dead branch - yet Jesus said what we do in our bodies, good or bad, will send us to heaven or hell:

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What we do, even as believers, is part of our judgment by God, said Jesus.

Faith without obedience is dead.

You erroneously teach works righteousness. This is a serious error! I will have to get back with you later. It’s hard for me to deliver mail and respond to you on my cell phone at the same time.

 

[kcnalp]

You erroneously teach works righteousness. This is a serious error! I will have to get back with you later. It’s hard for me to deliver mail and respond to you on my cell phone at the same time.

If you don't have Christian works you're not a Christian.

 

[mailmandan]

If you don't have Christian works you're not a Christian.

We become a Christian first and then Christian works follow. Don’t put the cart before the horse. A good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.

 

[kcnalp]

We become a Christian first and then Christian works follow. Don’t put the cart before the horse. A good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.

If you don't have Christian works you don't stay a Christian. James said so!

James 2:26 (NKJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

OSASers are not exempt. No wonder Satan made up OSAS and no works salvation!

 

[mailmandan]

If you don't have Christian works you don't stay a Christian. James said so!

James 2:26 (NKJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

OSASers are not exempt. No wonder Satan made up OSAS and no works salvation!

I’ve already explained this to you multiple times. Your obsession with attacking OSAS continues to blind you from the truth and create your continued straw man arguments. Believers are saved apart from the merit of works, yet authentic faith does not remain apart from the presence of works. (Romans 4:2-6; James 2:14-26)

 

[kcnalp]

I’ve already explained this to you multiple times. Your obsession with attacking OSAS has blinded you from the truth. Believers are saved apart from the merit of works, yet authentic faith does not remain apart from the presence of works.

Your obsession against NON OSASers noted.