Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

[atpollard]

Grace haters?

Those that hate the Doctrines of Grace, a celebration of the grace (unmerited favor) of a Sovereign God, and demand that salvation be a cooperative venture with God and men as partners (the antithesis of “unmerited favor”).

 

[JRM]

Those that hate the Doctrines of Grace, a celebration of the grace (unmerited favor) of a Sovereign God, and demand that salvation be a cooperative venture with God and men as partners (the antithesis of “unmerited favor”).

I wonder, was any human present in heaven when God began to plan His salvation program from eternity past?

To God Be The Glory

 

[PinSeeker]

In all of my reading Scripture and I must have missed what you've stated above, I don't recall that there is a call issued in Scripture that salvation is available to all, and that all are invited.

Well yes you do, although you may not think of it in exactly those terms, but you point it out in your very next sentence:

"What I do know is that God's call to the world is to believe in His Son..."​

But He does issue an inward call via His Holy Spirit according to the will of the Father to the elect only, each at his or her appointed time. This is exactly what Jesus is telling Nicodemus in John 3.

...salvation is a done deal for all believers before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8-9).

Right, but they still have to be called, and they still have to respond. And they inevitably will, because God, at that time, will have changed their hearts and made them alive in the Spirit; this is God's irresistible grace. It's not that they "can't resist something/anything" or "don't have free will," but that because of their changed hearts, they will be wholly inclined not to resist and thus will not. Right?

Also, seeing that there is none righteous no, not one and that none seeks after God (Romans 3:10-11). Therefore I do not see for a general call issued to the world that salvation is still available, nor is there any kinds of invitation for salvation offered.

Again, you just enunciated the general call to salvation. We all know John 3:16. (and other like passages).

What I hear in what you are saying is at least sort of a hyper-Calvinistic view, which is not really Calvinism at all. And that's really what people who reject Calvinism ~ because they're offended (or something) by it ~ are reacting to. I mean, they should react negatively to hyper-Calvinism, but they think they're rejecting Calvinism, and that's not really the case.

Yes, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, but only those that are saved from the foundation of the world will hear the true Gospel.

Ah, well, everyone hears the Gospel, but many ~ as Paul puts it in Romans 1 ~ "exchange the truth about God for a lie and instead worship and serve the creature rather than the Creator. It's not really an ear or brain issue, but a heart issue. It is entirely possible to hear and understand the true Gospel but still reject it, and that's what they do.

To God Be The Glory

Absolutely! Grace and peace to you.[/QUOTE]

 

[robert derrick]

Those that hate the Doctrines of Grace, a celebration of the grace (unmerited favor) of a Sovereign God, and demand that salvation be a cooperative venture with God and men as partners (the antithesis of “unmerited favor”).

I've always been a little revolted by people who like to talk about 'celebrating' this and 'celebrating' that about the cross of Jesus Christ.

Exactly how does one go about CELEBRATING grace?

I mean, is it like a big YIPEE or something?

Sounds like flower children. But then, since they have no cooperation for God, then no big surprise they can CELEBRATE with flowers in their hair.

 

[robert derrick]

OSAS is a smokescreen for the real devil in the doctrine:

Salvation by faith alone, which is dead, being by faith only.

Eternal salvation is for all them that obey Jesus. Not for all them that believe only.

We are saved by grace through believing from the heart unto righteousness, which is obedience from the heart unto righteousness.

Them that obey Jesus have an understanding with Him that is true, that Scripture says believing and obeying is the same thing, and there is not one without the other.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Belief from the heart is the substance of hope in Christ, and obedience from the heart is the evidence of it.

Salvation by faith alone is the temporal salvation of the carnal minded and disobedient, which only lasts to the grave.

But, they sure do a whole lot of CELEBRATING along the way.

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

How does the Lord know the condition of our heart? By our works.

By what works? Well, by looking at OSAS, that's the big question.

 

[robert derrick]

Those that hate the Doctrines of Grace, a celebration of the grace (unmerited favor) of a Sovereign God, and demand that salvation be a cooperative venture with God and men as partners (the antithesis of “unmerited favor”).

Unconditional and unmerited are not words of Scripture, but of false doctrine of men.

The crown of life is not obtained and won, except we run the race to the end, lawfully. That crown is therefore only for them that are worthy to be clothed in white, which is only after death in Christ.

Being worthy by exercising the faith to obey the good and eschew the evil is not an unmerited 'grant', much less an unconditional 'gift'.

The free gift is not grace nor salvation, but is the faith of Jesus that obeys Him. ANd only them that do obey Him are them that have recieved that gift into their hearts.

The salvation obtained by the faith of Jesus is through obedience to Him: through the obedient works of Jesus' faith.

Jesus' faith is obedient faith. Faith only is dead, being alone without obedience.

There is no such thing as faith only, and so there is no such salvation by faith only.

Grace is found by the merit of believers who desire to obey from the heart, and so come boldly for that help of grace to overcome temptation and sin.

Grace is not given nor found by the disobedient, especially not by the pagan flower-children dancing a 'celebration' of 'unmerited' grace for cover in time of sin and transgression.

If salvation were unconditional and grace were unmerited, then none would ever obtain salvation and be worthy by grace to be clothed in white.

No one is saved by unconditional salvation and unmerited faith, because they don't exist, except in the minds of happy celebrators of excused sin.

 

[PinSeeker]

How does the Lord know the condition of our heart? By our works.

The Lord knows the condition of our hearts because He (for those He purposes to save) is the One (by His will and the work of the Holy Spirit) Who changes it. Our works are the outward result of our having been born again of the Spirit. As Paul says in Ephesians 2, it is by God's grace that we have have been saved through faith, which is not our own doing, but the gift of God, not a result of our works, so that no possibility of our boasting in in ourselves. We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

By what works? Well, by looking at OSAS, that's the big question.

Yes, it is a big question, but easily answered: By the work of Christ at Calvary and the work of the Holy Spirit, both initially (at the time we are born again of the Spirit) and to the day of Christ as, in His power, we are kept from stumbling and finally presented blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy (Jude 24).

One of the great misunderstandings of this doctrine we call perseverance of the saints is that we are responsible in and of ourselves for this perseverance. No, we see very clearly in Philippians 2 that it is God who works in us, so that we will both will and work for His good pleasure (2:13). We persevere to the end because God sustains us, working in and through us, and of course not failing. Great is His faithfulness.

Unconditional and unmerited are not words of Scripture...

The actual use of those two words is not necessary; Scripture clearly teaches that:

God's granting of His great salvation is conditional on absolutely nothing that man may or may not do ~ it is in this sense that it is unconditional. This granting of His great salvation is dependent only on His mercy and compassion, which He either has or has not toward any one person depending on His will alone. This is God's purpose of election, which is executed before anyone has done anything good or bad (i.e. works) or even yet born. It is not because of human works but because of Him Who calls. This is Romans 9.

The definition of grace ~ a word that is most certainly used in Scripture ~ is unmerited favor. God gives the grace of salvation to His Elect, and there is nothing we can do to merit it, as it is based on His will and His will alone. The prophet Ezekiel gives us a great picture of salvation, relaying to us God's own words:

"I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God."
[Ezekiel 36:24-28]​

Grace and peace to all.

 

[JRM]

Well yes you do, although you may not think of it in exactly those terms, but you point it out in your very next sentence:

"What I do know is that God's call to the world is to believe in His Son..."​

But He does issue an inward call via His Holy Spirit according to the will of the Father to the elect only, each at his or her appointed time. This is exactly what Jesus is telling Nicodemus in John 3.

Right, but they still have to be called, and they still have to respond. And they inevitably will, because God, at that time, will have changed their hearts and made them alive in the Spirit; this is God's irresistible grace. It's not that they "can't resist something/anything" or "don't have free will," but that because of their changed hearts, they will be wholly inclined not to resist and thus will not. Right?

Again, you just enunciated the general call to salvation. We all know John 3:16. (and other like passages).

What I hear in what you are saying is at least sort of a hyper-Calvinistic view, which is not really Calvinism at all. And that's really what people who reject Calvinism ~ because they're offended (or something) by it ~ are reacting to. I mean, they should react negatively to hyper-Calvinism, but they think they're rejecting Calvinism, and that's not really the case.

Ah, well, everyone hears the Gospel, but many ~ as Paul puts it in Romans 1 ~ "exchange the truth about God for a lie and instead worship and serve the creature rather than the Creator. It's not really an ear or brain issue, but a heart issue. It is entirely possible to hear and understand the true Gospel but still reject it, and that's what they do.

Absolutely! Grace and peace to you.

[/QUOTE)

To all who does NOT understand the OSAS doctrine, the following Scripture verses below and many like it, represents the true Gospel:

Ephesians 1:1-6
1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2) Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

I want you to read the above word-for-word so that there will be no misunderstanding, but if perchance you do not understand any part of it at all, especially John 3:16, PLEASE ASK.

To God Be The Glory

 

[robert derrick]

it is by God's grace that we have have been saved through faith, which is not our own doing, but the gift of God, not a result of our works, so that no possibility of our boasting in in ourselves.

The modern notion of separating inward faith from outward works is a fad-teaching made up for saved by faith only, which is dead, being faith and salvation alone, without obedience to Him.

There is no only believing inwardly, and only obeying outwardly.

Obeying begins in the heart by faith: they are one and the same.

We are saved by obeying God and believing in His gospel to repent and do His righteousness.

Them that have an understanding with Him that is true, know there is no separation between believing Him and obeying Him, which is why we also understand there is no eternal salvation that does not obey Him from the heart.

Salvation is by obedience to the faith inwardly and outwardly.

Outward obedience is the evidence of things unseen: the inward obedience that is the faith of Jesus, by which we are saved.

The carnal minded doctrine of believing only for salvation, and only obeying outwardly is a lie of the devil.

God sees the inward sins first, before they are ever manifest outwardly. (Matthew 5:28)

Outward sin not 'seen' by God inwardly is equally of the devil, and flower child folly: I know I do bad things, but my heart is still good.

O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee.

Neither grace nor the blood of the Lamb covers sin, but grace only helps to overcome sin, that we may be washed clean of it by the blood.

God not 'seeing' our 'covered' sin of disobedience in the heart, is for a blind grace of a blind God: the devil.

 

[robert derrick]

not a result of our works, so that no possibility of our boasting in in ourselves.

Works of our own righteousness is boasting without grace.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

He has mercy on any who obey from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Works of His righteousness is His boast of us to His Father, to be made worthy of His salvation and clothed in white:

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Paul boasted of the ministry by the works of ministry, and James boasted of his faith by the works of faith.

The faux humility of faith alone salvation is the opportunity to falsely accuse them that obey Him for eternal salvation, as being pride of works of their own righteousness.

It is a lie of the devil, and a cheap shot of a self-righteousness, that is by faith and words only.

 

[PinSeeker]

The modern notion of separating inward faith from outward works is a fad-teaching made up for saved by faith only, which is dead, being faith and salvation alone, without obedience to Him.

Obedience proceeds from the heart to which faith has been given.

There is no only believing inwardly, and only obeying outwardly.

Agreed. The latter precipitates, without fail from the person because of the former.

Obeying begins in the heart by faith...

Agreed.

they are one and the same.

But here not so much. :) The heart infused with faith results in obedience.

Works of our own righteousness is boasting without grace.

This really makes no sense. In any case, boasting in oneself because of his/or her works and deservedness of God's grace is totally antithetical to Biblical teaching. Any perceived deservedness of God's grace on one's part with regard to works or anything else either intentionally or unintentionally makes God's grace into something that is not really grace at all.

Paul boasted of the ministry by the works of ministry, and James boasted of his faith by the works of faith.

Neither boasted of anything regarding faith or salvation. Both boasted in the Lord, and the Lord only.

The faux humility of faith alone salvation is the opportunity to falsely accuse them that obey Him for eternal salvation, as being pride of works of their own righteousness.

The error of every other "faith" aside from Christianity is that they think they can do enough to earn salvation (if they even believe that any sort of salvation is necessary, because some certainly do not), that self-righteousness and self-salvation is possible. Every. Single. One.

It is a lie of the devil, and a cheap shot of a self-righteousness, that is by faith and words only.

This is a little garbled, it seems, but as I said, works are the natural outpouring from the person who has been given faith by God. Otherwise, works are worthless. And if a person says he/she has faith but there are no works to show it outwardly, then there is no saving faith. This was Jame'ss point, that faith without works is dead.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[atpollard]

How does the Lord know the condition of our heart?

The LORD is OMNISCIENT.
(You really haven't thought this far enough ahead if you think Jesus NEEDS to see your works in order to know your heart. Typical of synergism, you have your role and God's role conflated.)

 

[atpollard]

Exactly how does one go about CELEBRATING grace?

i am a little church(no great cathedral)
far from the splendor and squalor of hurrying cities
-i do not worry if briefer days grow briefest,
i am not sorry when sun and rain make april

my life is the life of the reaper and the sower;
my prayers are prayers of earth's own clumsily striving
(finding and losing and laughing and crying)children
whose any sadness or joy is my grief or my gladness

around me surges a miracle of unceasing
birth and glory and death and resurrection:
over my sleeping self float flaming symbols
of hope,and i wake to a perfect patience of mountains

i am a little church(far from the frantic
world with its rapture and anguish)at peace with nature
-i do not worry if longer nights grow longest;
i am not sorry when silence becomes singing

winter by spring,i lift my diminutive spire to
merciful Him Whose only now is forever:
standing erect in the deathless truth of His presence
(welcoming humbly His light and proudly His darkness)
-e.e. cummings
​

This is a how some celebrate unmerited favor.
With "an attitude of gratitude" (as the saying goes) and a "walk" characterized by love for and trust in our CREATOR.
I do not "do good" in the hope that God will love me - God has already demonstrated His love for me ... I am now free to do good BECAUSE He loves me with an unshakable love.

I am sorry you find gratitude for God's love "revolting" ... mostly sad for you.

 

[Grailhunter]

God foreknew from the beginning of time who would by faith believe and who would not.
God predestinated all the promises of eternal life, justification, his image, glorification etc to those who he knew would make the choice to believe. He knew them that would follow him before time begin. The difference we have is (I think) you believe that those promises are given to you without any need for you to believe by faith. God makes that choice for you before you are born. I believe that those promises start at salvation to the rapture. In short my (P) starts at salvation and your (P) starts at creation. God knew before you were born that you would receive the promises because he knew before you were born what decisions you were going to make. That does not translate into God made the decisions for you.

Like many the problem with your thinking is that you are confusing predestination with clairvoyance.
If God knows what is going to happen then that has no control over free-will.
If people have the choice to choose Christ, there is no reason to lock it down.
If God makes that choice for you, before you are born, you are a slave robot, and he is monster and all of reality a puppet show....with no real reason or purpose.

 

[TEXBOW]

Like many the problem with your thinking is that you are confusing predestination with clairvoyance.
If God knows what is going to happen then that has no control over free-will.
If people have the choice to choose Christ, there is no reason to lock it down.
If God makes that choice for you, before you are born, you are a slave robot, and he is monster and all of reality a puppet show....with no real reason or purpose.

I'm not sure I'm following you. God can know the future without dictating it. It's clear that some have chosen to follow Christ and some have not. God did not predestine anyone into hell. I do not see people going to hell dragging their suitcases mumbling that God decided their fate before they were born and they are blameless.

 

[Grailhunter]

I'm not sure I'm following you. God can know the future without dictating it. It's clear that some have chosen to follow Christ and some have not. God did not predestine anyone into hell. I do not see people going to hell dragging their suitcases mumbling that God decided their fate before they were born and they are blameless.

Maybe some confusion...
So what do you see?

 

[TEXBOW]

Maybe some confusion...
So what do you see?

I see them trembling after their sins were exposed on the day of judgment.

 

[PinSeeker]

Like many the problem with your thinking is that you are confusing predestination with clairvoyance.
If God knows what is going to happen then that has no control over free-will.
If people have the choice to choose Christ, there is no reason to lock it down.
If God makes that choice for you, before you are born, you are a slave robot, and he is monster and all of reality a puppet show....with no real reason or purpose.

God enables some to choose Him; He has mercy on those whom He will have mercy, compassion upon whom He will have compassion. He changes the heart of those whom He chooses. The heart drives the will. Those whose hearts are changed do not fail to choose Him, because no longer are they dead in their sin and thus not of Him and wholly inclined against Him, but they are born again of the Spirit, of Him, and inclined toward Him. At this point they make the right choice.

It depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. This is Romans 9:16. This does not suggest that we don't make a choice. We do, but initially, it depends on whether God gives man new birth in the Spirit or not.

God is totally sovereign over all His creation.

Grace and peace.

 

[robert derrick]

The LORD is OMNISCIENT.
(You really haven't thought this far enough ahead if you think Jesus NEEDS to see your works in order to know your heart. Typical of synergism, you have your role and God's role conflated.)

You haven't thought enough about what is written to see what is being said:
The Lord knows the condition of the heart, before the deed is ever done.

And we know the condition of our heart by the deeds done in the body, no matter how much we delude ourselves about God not being able to 'see' them, because of a faux blood covering.

The blood of Jesus only washes away sins by repentance. Jesus does not cover them by a faux grace.

 

[robert derrick]

Obedience proceeds from the heart to which faith has been given.


Agreed. The latter precipitates, without fail from the person because of the former.


Agreed.


But here not so much. :) The heart infused with faith results in obedience.


This really makes no sense. In any case, boasting in oneself because of his/or her works and deservedness of God's grace is totally antithetical to Biblical teaching. Any perceived deservedness of God's grace on one's part with regard to works or anything else either intentionally or unintentionally makes God's grace into something that is not really grace at all.


Neither boasted of anything regarding faith or salvation. Both boasted in the Lord, and the Lord only.



The error of every other "faith" aside from Christianity is that they think they can do enough to earn salvation (if they even believe that any sort of salvation is necessary, because some certainly do not), that self-righteousness and self-salvation is possible. Every. Single. One.


This is a little garbled, it seems, but as I said, works are the natural outpouring from the person who has been given faith by God. Otherwise, works are worthless. And if a person says he/she has faith but there are no works to show it outwardly, then there is no saving faith. This was Jame'ss point, that faith without works is dead.

Grace and peace to you.

But here not so much. :) The heart infused with faith results in obedience.

You were doing good until here.

There is no 'spiritual' separation of time nor of presence in the heart between believing and obeying: both are born in the heart at the same time of salvation and inthe same place by grace: the heart.

The obedience of Jesus and the faith of Jesus are one, even as the Father and the Son are one in perfect unity: there is not one without the other, neither coming before nor after the other: they are both eternal without beginning and without ending.

When we believe Jesus to obey Him, we are obeying Jesus to believe Him,a nd we are thus born of His eternal faith and obedience in the heart, by which we are saved.

The effort to separate faith and obedience to the faith from one another in the heart, is the deception of salvation by faith alone.

The faith of Jesus never comes alone, nor is given alone, but comes with Him as obedience to Him, which is why His eternal salvation is only for all them that obey Him in the heart and from the heart, because there is no believing Him alone.

A 'spiritual' separation between believing and obeying in the heart is spiritual wickedness in high places: salvation by faith alone.

The only obedience 'resulting' from faith, are the obedient works of faith by the body, which follows obedience and faith in the heart.

There is no salvation by faith alone in the heart, even as there is no justification by obedient works without faith: the former is dead, and the latter is vain.