Grace is the power to become

[whitestone]

My problem is I have been listening to him. And while he's got religious language down pat, a lot of what he says does not ring true...biblically.

We know that grace is a gift:

and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (Romans 3:24 ESV)

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 6:23 ESV)

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV)

A gift, especially a free one, means that there is no need to earn it or keep it by some behaviour on our part. I agree completely that we need to 'die' to ourselves...that we need to put the old sin nature to death. But we do not do this before Christ saves us with his grace. We were 'still sinners' when Jesus saved us, when his grace knocked us over and created us anew. So obviously there was nothing we did to merit such a gift. And once we received it and were made new? Then we begin to walk with him...sanctification. Yes we try and do what the bible tells us to, yes we strive to become more Christ like, yes we repent from our sins and put them to death. But we do not do this on our own...we are still incapable of doing this under our own steam....we need Christ to help us. We are his 'workmanship'...and he that authored our faith, will perfect it through us.
My problem with Epi is that he constantly puts a spin on this...that we must do this, or that, to earn or keep grace. That we must be 'good enough' to enter (under our own steam apparently) into God's "inner circle". That is not how it works...for that would be placing some of the glory on ourselves and our own ability. It should all be on God. We know that He gives grace to us freely while we are hopelessly lost and dark...and we know that anything we do is in response to that gift...not to earn it, or to keep it.

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
(Romans 4:4-12 ESV)

Grace is NOT the power to get where we want to go ourselves. Grace is everything...it is eternal life and salvation...forgiveness of sins...given to us by a loving God. It is given to us when we believe, when we have faith...not because of our actions beforehand, and certainly not afterwards. How we behave after we are saved is in direct response to what we've been given...because we want to please him, not because we have to.




See, again you are putting the emphasis on what YOU have to do...."grace...a means to help you get to Christ". No. I'm sorry, but that is wrong. You do not get yourself to Christ....He comes to you. He give a free gift to you, and he walks with you. You have placed yourself in a role of a teacher, and you are teaching others that their works will somehow have an impact on their salvation. That is unbiblical, and just wrong, and I'm very much afraid that you will end up paying for this folly. I have no problem with you encouraging people to live well...to revel in the grace given, to follow Jesus because of love and joy in being set free.
But to tell them that if they stumble they have not yet 'attained' Jesus, and to tell them that they can only 'attain' Jesus if they don't stumble, leaves them no where to go. They will spend the rest of their lives trying to be perfect so they can 'attain' Christ, only to be told at the end that works could not save them, and that Jesus did not know them at all. Jesus saves. He comes to us, gives us grace and then we have a personal relationship with Him. We cling to him and keep our eyes on him, and as we do that we walk with him, by his help. That is how we grow. And it's all on him...all the glory and all the power. Anything else is self glorifying, and that's not biblical.

Dear Rach,

Thank you for the nice letter. Again, very kind, very rare to see here on this website. Thank you :)

However, I don't see where you have any evidence whatsoever to say that Episkopos is saying that "he" or ''we" DO anything of our own power.
Not once.

And that is what everyone is accusing him of saying. And he isn't.
That is what I am referring to as the "false accuser".

For instance, yes, Episkopos said "Grace is how we attain to Christ", and he got accused of saying something he did NOT say there lol. It is crazy!

Everything he says describes dying to self so that Christ is attained within us. Not by our "own power", he hasn't once said that. It is a false accusation.

He did NOT say that Grace is anything else! Like "our own power"! Those words were added by a false accuser.
Do you not see that?

Everything he has written is ALL about dying to self and letting Christ do the "attaining" in us by the Work of HIM in us. This has always consistently been his message and it is my exact message. If he wasn't preaching truth I would be all over him.
He is an excellent teacher and is right on with truth so far I've seen. So far.

You stand out as one whom may be of the Lord. However, you are caught up it seems in the "group thinking" of the "adversary" here, who falsely accuse him and dragonfly and axehead. Those are men of God and others here only are putting a knife to their throat in treating them as the pharisees treated Jesus.

I hate seeing it, just like I would have hated watching them crucify Jesus. But I know who shall arise from this :) And their Godliness in Spirit and in Words to the base folk here will not go unrewarded.
I hope you look a little closer at what they DO say and not go off half-cocked and assume they say something they don't say. They always speak the word of God and provide it, unlike most anyone else here.
By their fruits ye shall know them.
Are they saints? Or are they sinners?
We know who the sinners are here, they admit to being such with no intent of being otherwise, and their reward is sure.

But those who have died in Christ's death and crucify the affections and lusts of the flesh as required, whose Lives are now Lived by the Holy Spirit of Christ in them, they are evident. For the enemy hates truth and that is why they are attacked here.
Plain as day.
Judge righteously Rach :) You won't go wrong if so.

Peace
Whitestone

 

[Prentis]

Hi haz,

You commented to whitestone:


Doesn't it bother you that there is only one gospel in scripture - the one Episkopos is proclaiming - and you don't recognise it?

You say to him...


Why do you think this is unreasonable, when it's not possible to read the New Testament and receive any other impression of what it means to be a Christian? The world was not turned upside-down by 120ish people who had no 'physical evidence as proof of their abiding in Christ'. The opposite was true. Just look at the end of Acts 9. That's 'physical evidence'.

That's because the Son of God as man physically hung on a cross and in His own body bore our sins, resisting all the powers of darkeness which assailed Him there (as He had habitually resisted before the cross) and he really shed blood that our sins may be remitted.

His victory over the devil, there, was a physical victory. There is no 'spiritual' which does not have a 'physical' side to it.

And now we are expected to be able to attain to many physical victories if we are in Him, walking according to His faith and strength and having the same attitude to sins as He had. This rudimentary concept justifies a person calling himself 'a disciple' - that is, a person who is now disciplined by and wholly attuned to agreeing with the thinking of his Teacher and Master.


Look at these verses, please:

John 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; [These are John's disciples with John.]
36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he [John the Baptist] said, Behold the Lamb of God!
37 And the two disciples [of John] heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and said to them, What seek ye?
They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
39 He said to them, Come and see. They came and saw where he [Jesus] dwelt, and abode with him that day:

Can you see in that important incident which the apostle John records for us, that John the Baptist lost two disciples that day, because the disciples had found who they were looking for now? John 1:41, 42 They changed from following John, to following Jesus? That is, they stopped walking along with John and started walking along with Jesus. It was a physical following. It was physically experienced by them and by John and by Jesus.


To make out that Episkopos is proclaiming requirements as if they are way beyond scripture, only proves what he is saying when he states that most people are not aware of what's involved in the stages after the first step of faith towards Christ.

John 16:12 I [Jesus] have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.


Here are a few verses which tie in with what he wrote to Rach, above.

Ephesians 4
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 [There is] one body,
and one Spirit,
even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord,
one faith,
one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But to every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. [ - grace for the callings in v 11.] ?

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man,

to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: ​

14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,

by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness whereby they lie, in wait to deceive; ​

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies,
according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body to the edifying of itself in love.

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them,

because of the blindness of their heart...'​

There are churches which use Ephesians 4:1 - 16 as the pattern of their understanding of church life. Have you ever seen one?

Amen!

The dividing of truth as to make it exclusively a spiritual reality that has no effect on the physical world we live in is gnostic in nature. But this is not the truth, and not what God intends for the church... Rather the church is to manifest the life of Christ.


2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

And this is the truth being preached here. If indeed we manifest the life of Christ, do we at the same time manifest the deeds of the flesh?? No, if we are fully surrendered and living from a place that is in Christ then we manifest only his life.

When we manifest sometimes his life and sometimes sin then we have not yet arrived at being part of a bride that is without spot or wrinkle! This is not a condemnation or judgment, and it is not wrong to have "not yet attained", as Paul himself hadn't, though he was a minister of life according to the Spirit in Christ Jesus.

The danger is to lower this standard, or to deny it... To claim to have attained before having done so, and hence to stop running. Nowadays, this arises not out of a false sense of having attained Christ in the sense that it is meant, but out of a lack of understanding of what the standard of Christ truly is. We are called in Christ Jesus to be as he is, and this not by our own power, but by his power working in us. What is required of us is our full cooperation and submission in this work that God is doing. But how can one submit to this standard when the said person has been led to believe that such power is not available, and such a standard not upheld by God himself for intimacy (this is NOT the standard of salvation, but intimacy and glory)?

Thus is the dilemma of the modern church... A standard misunderstood, making the power, when preached (rarely), seem foolish and unnecessary... Even undesirable... But this is because man does perceive the requirement of receiving such power; carrying the death of Christ in our body always...

May God open the eyes that we might press in unto his presence and his life together!

 

[dragonfly]

2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

Those verses mean the same as Paul wrote in Romans 8, explaining the same principles objectively.


Romans 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin;

but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. ​

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead

shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. ​

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

[haz]

Hi haz,

You commented to whitestone:


Doesn't it bother you that there is only one gospel in scripture - the one Episkopos is proclaiming - and you don't recognise it?

You say to him...


Why do you think this is unreasonable, when it's not possible to read the New Testament and receive any other impression of what it means to be a Christian? The world was not turned upside-down by 120ish people who had no 'physical evidence as proof of their abiding in Christ'. The opposite was true. Just look at the end of Acts 9. That's 'physical evidence'.

That's because the Son of God as man physically hung on a cross and in His own body bore our sins, resisting all the powers of darkeness which assailed Him there (as He had habitually resisted before the cross) and he really shed blood that our sins may be remitted.

His victory over the devil, there, was a physical victory. There is no 'spiritual' which does not have a 'physical' side to it.

And now we are expected to be able to attain to many physical victories if we are in Him, walking according to His faith and strength and having the same attitude to sins as He had. This rudimentary concept justifies a person calling himself 'a disciple' - that is, a person who is now disciplined by and wholly attuned to agreeing with the thinking of his Teacher and Master.


Look at these verses, please:

John 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; [These are John's disciples with John.]
36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he [John the Baptist] said, Behold the Lamb of God!
37 And the two disciples [of John] heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and said to them, What seek ye?
They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
39 He said to them, Come and see. They came and saw where he [Jesus] dwelt, and abode with him that day:

Can you see in that important incident which the apostle John records for us, that John the Baptist lost two disciples that day, because the disciples had found who they were looking for now? John 1:41, 42 They changed from following John, to following Jesus? That is, they stopped walking along with John and started walking along with Jesus. It was a physical following. It was physically experienced by them and by John and by Jesus.


To make out that Episkopos is proclaiming requirements as if they are way beyond scripture, only proves what he is saying when he states that most people are not aware of what's involved in the stages after the first step of faith towards Christ.

John 16:12 I [Jesus] have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.


Here are a few verses which tie in with what he wrote to Rach, above.

Ephesians 4
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 [There is] one body,
and one Spirit,
even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord,
one faith,
one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But to every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. [ - grace for the callings in v 11.] ?

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man,

to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: ​

14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,

by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness whereby they lie, in wait to deceive; ​

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies,
according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body to the edifying of itself in love.

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them,

because of the blindness of their heart...'​

There are churches which use Ephesians 4:1 - 16 as the pattern of their understanding of church life. Have you ever seen one?

Hi dragonfly,

I'm not bothered with rejecting the false gospel of Epi. I am contending with the likes of Epi and Co who preach a false gospel beyond what was evidenced when the thief on the cross called Jesus 'Lord'.

You support the preaching here by Epi and Co. accusing others here who do not follow the gospel of physical evidence of a perfect lifestyle, as unsaved. You are seeking to lead believers away from believing God's promise and into works (although you deny you call it salvation by works) . I can see that you, Epi, whitestone, Prentis are not bothered by that.

You refer to Acts 9 about physical evidence, but all have heard of similar 'physical evidence' in these modern times amongst churches who reject your gospel of works. It is not this physical evidence that I refer to. Instead it's your claim that a perfect lifestyle/behavior is proof that one is actually abiding in Christ. Without this evidence of perfect lifestyle, the likes of Epi claims that such persons are in sin and the soul that sins shall die.

The thief on the cross who called Jesus 'Lord' did not go through a multi-step process to be saved, as you claim. Nor do those who live for years after coming to Christ. Instead it's just ONE step. Believe on Jesus. This is submitting to the righteousness of God. This is the simplicity of Christ, which your gospel sabotages.

As for lifestyles/behavior, many here will attest to God working in their lives and lifestyles/behavior improving. But this makes us no more righteous or holy than the thief on the cross.

But your gospel of physical evidence of perfect lifestyle/behavior claims this is not sufficient. Your gospel demands that we should have what Paul had before his conversion. "Touching the righteousness of the law, blameless" (Phil 3:6. But Paul, after coming to Christ, saw his former life as "dung" to have Christ instead," the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil 3:9).

And let's consider the words/thoughts/behavior on this forum.
Whitestone claims to be 'sinless' ( or perfect in behavior). But consider these quotes below of accusations he made to others on this forum.

satanic behavior
you spew forth
base folk
is there a way to put the vile and disgusting people here on ignore?
Is there a way to "ignore" or otherwise turn off the Godless self-diefied members who post?

In fact both you and whitestone have been somewhat dishonest in confronting opponents for being confrontational just like your friend Epi is. This glossing over your friend Epi's confrontational style whilst accusing opponents of the same is clearly dishonest.

Whilst I have no interest in accusing anyone of fault I find it baffling that your team accuses others here of being unsaved unless they have a perfect lifestyle to prove it, YET you and whitestone display this dishonesty.

You referred to Eph 4. But we see scriptures differently.

Eph 4:14
that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

We both see this scripture applies to each other.

Your gospel is a multi-step process with step 2 demanding evidence of a perfect lifestyle/behavior as proof of abiding in Christ and therefore avoiding death. You quote scripture without any understanding, twisting it as support.

Others here follow the simplicity of Christ. We believe on Jesus, believing God's promise of salvation in him. Scripture in truth supports this gospel.

 

[Prentis]

The modern church has a relentless obsession with salvation, which often blinds it and makes it unable to receive the truth. People are deceived into believing that somehow the standard of Christ is the standard of salvation... These two are confused.

The standard of salvation put forth in the Bible is 'to those who give mercy, mercy.' But the standard of Christ is that if we abide in him we walk as he walked. This does not make salvation exclusive to those who walk as he walked, but rather makes intimacy exclusive to them. They walk in eternal life.

This confusion occurs because to those who seek only to save their own lives, God gives them what they desire... For a time. ;) We must be careful that we do not trust our own hearts, lest they lead us to destruction.

It is the fallen nature of man to be like a beast and seek only his gain, to save his life, but it is dangerous to approach spritiual things with a carnal mindset.

 

[Axehead]

Haz's only gospel is a man that had minutes to live. But if he did live then the divine life of Jesus Christ in him would have produced works. No doubt about it! That is what the Spirit of God does in a Believer. Jesus Christ would have tested him just as He tests everyone's confession of faith (even Adam). He would have required him to walk in holiness and righteousness or else his confession is just a pretense or a ploy to be saved. Yet, his confession on the cross was no manipulative ploy to be saved (as he was dying). As he was dying he asked another man (Jesus) that was DYING to save him. No, this man was not fooling around with God. He was given revelation knowledge by the Spirit and he knew that Jesus was the One to save his soul and he was obviously not expecting his physical body to be saved. This same powerful revelation expressed a work of righteousness when he rebuked the other criminal on the cross for NOT FEARING GOD.

Unlike the thief on the cross, Haz presumably has more than just minutes to live, and I wonder Haz, after "confessing" Christ, is there anything more for you to do? According to the Apostle James, there is.


If this brother lived, I have no doubt that he would be on the side of the Apostle James and all those brethren calling people to forsake their flesh and carnal ways


By loving the world (any idol in our heart), we prove our hostility against the Lordship of Jesus.

A FRIEND OF THE WORLD MAKES HIMSELF AN ENEMY OF GOD.

Enemies of God DO NOT go to heaven.

Read what James is saying to the Church of the Living God and tell me if you receive it?

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Do you know why James could write this? Because he was writing to Christians who were not displaying a walk of righteousness and Jesus Christ Himself was prompting James to say these things.


You see Haz,
When Paul writes "not of works", he is thinking of works apart from the faith that trusts and obeys the Lord and that precedes it.
When James writes "justified by works," he is thinking of those that follow faith and are produced by it.
Paul writes mostly of works of the law, which some of the Jews were using as a ground for salvation.
James is speaking of works that result from the new divine life produced by the Spirit of God.

Jesus said that, "if we cannot hear the Word of God, it is because WE WANT TO DO THE DEEDS OF OUR FATHER" John 8:41

Axehead

 

[haz]

Haz's only gospel is a man that had minutes to live. But if he did live then the divine life of Jesus Christ in him would have produced works. No doubt about it! That is what the Spirit of God does in a Believer. Jesus Christ would have tested him just as He tests everyone's confession of faith (even Adam). He would have required him to walk in holiness and righteousness or else his confession is just a pretense or a ploy to be saved. Yet, his confession on the cross was no manipulative ploy to be saved (as he was dying). As he was dying he asked another man (Jesus) that was DYING to save him. No, this man was not fooling around with God. He was given revelation knowledge by the Spirit and he knew that Jesus was the One to save his soul and he was obviously not expecting his physical body to be saved. This same powerful revelation expressed a work of righteousness when he rebuked the other criminal on the cross for NOT FEARING GOD.

Unlike the thief on the cross, Haz presumably has more than just minutes to live, and I wonder Haz, after "confessing" Christ, is there anything more for you to do? According to the Apostle James, there is.


If this brother lived, I have no doubt that he would be on the side of the Apostle James and all those brethren calling people to forsake their flesh and carnal ways


By loving the world (any idol in our heart), we prove our hostility against the Lordship of Jesus.

A FRIEND OF THE WORLD MAKES HIMSELF AN ENEMY OF GOD.

Enemies of God DO NOT go to heaven.

Read what James is saying to the Church of the Living God and tell me if you receive it?

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Do you know why James could write this? Because he was writing to Christians who were not displaying a walk of righteousness and Jesus Christ Himself was prompting James to say these things.


You see Haz,
When Paul writes "not of works", he is thinking of works apart from the faith that trusts and obeys the Lord and that precedes it.
When James writes "justified by works," he is thinking of those that follow faith and are produced by it.
Paul writes mostly of works of the law, which some of the Jews were using as a ground for salvation.
James is speaking of works that result from the new divine life produced by the Spirit of God.

Jesus said that, "if we cannot hear the Word of God, it is because WE WANT TO DO THE DEEDS OF OUR FATHER" John 8:41

Axehead

Hi Axehead,

The difference between your gospel and that which applied to the thief on the cross is that you add works of perfection in lifestyle/behavior as proof of abiding in Christ.

Maybe God gave this example in scripture (of the thief on the cross) knowing that deceivers would come after to try to add works of perfect behavior (self-righteousness) to His gospel.

BTW, where is the proof that the thief on the cross would have followed your doctrine had he not been on his deathbed when turning to Christ? Just claiming it would have been so doesn't make it so. That is 'fantasy', as Epi would put it.
Your gospel is about proof that one is abiding in Christ through a perfect lifestyle. Why do you then swap over to 'fantasy' to try to support your gospel of works?

Regarding James 4, you seem to be understanding it from a carnal perspective. BUT, God's word is spiritually discerned (1Cor 2:14).

James 4:4 speaks of spiritual adultery.
Jas 4:6 Who are the proud? Those who boast of their own righteousness.
Jas 4:7,8 Is a salvation call to these sinners.
Jas 4:11,12 describes these sinners/spiritual adulterers as those who judge righteousness by the law

So, what are our works?
John 6:29 believe on Jesus, which is what the thief on the cross did.
It seems that the simplicity of believing on Jesus is too much for those in unbelief and self-righteous works to accept. For such Christ is a stumbling block.

Your gospel of perfect behavior as proof, with death to any who fail this perfection, is mixing grace and works of the law. This cannot be (Rom 11:6). That is a lukewarm gospel (Rev 3:15,16).

 

[Rach1370]

I think you are confusing coming to Christ and attaining to Christ. I am using exact biblical terminology here.

Coming to Christ is through the gift of repentance by the Holy Spirit. But we must choose afterwards whether we will run the race of faith or not...most today choose to call it quits and claim they are already saved. Some try to improve themselves and call it sanctification....but this is not what I'm saying at all.

Ok epi...I have to say thanks...this is probably the first time I've seen you clarify this point, and it's helping a lot!

I agree with the above (with the possible exception of 'claim they are already saved'...do you mean here that just 'coming to Christ' does not mean they are yet saved?). Yes, there is a big difference between 'coming to Christ' and 'walking with Christ.' We must certainly choose to walk with him, but are not then capable of improving ourselves by ourselves (if that makes sense!) There are definite choices and actions required on our part...a Christian life is not one to be lived passively or in an unconcerned manner.

What we have begun in the Spirit we must continue in the Spirit. Coming to Christ is only the first step in a race to ATTAIN to Christ in our characters....we are saved in our spirits in order to become saved in our souls.

Ok...I'm not getting the distinction here. What's the difference between being saved in our spirits and saved in our souls??

So the race of faith is to go lower learning true humility in the process...not exult ourselves with our initial salvations. We must go deeply to the cross to be broken and have the old nature killed so that the deposit of the Spirit can rise up and overcome.

I am stating that we must further surrender AFTER being born again...THAT IS sanctification. This sanctification is both a one time experience (to show us what this is) AND an ongoing process that leads to a full maturity in Christ. (2 Peter 1)

We furthermore...who take the walk of Christ seriously...should seek out to be in a constant fellowship with ohters also called to be saints...that the life generated by the gathering of the body might draw out the life that is in us who are born of the Spirit.

I realize this sounds very foreign to most people...but it is entirely biblical...and it actually works in real life.

Actually, no...that doesn't sound foreign at all. Growing in humility...surrendering all to the cross...ongoing process of sanctification...taking the walk seriously....that actually sounds biblical, and I'm in full agreement. I wonder if you could perhaps go a bit deeper into detail for me, in regards to how you see the things above playing out practically in your life? I'm just trying to further clarify here, is all. I've been seriously concerned with some of the things you've said before, but this post had gone a long way to settling a lot of those concerns...thanks. But if you don't mind, perhaps a little more detail on how you see scripture saying we are supposed to 'attain Christ'? Ta...

 

[Episkopos]

Ok epi...I have to say thanks...this is probably the first time I've seen you clarify this point, and it's helping a lot!

I agree with the above (with the possible exception of 'claim they are already saved'...do you mean here that just 'coming to Christ' does not mean they are yet saved?). Yes, there is a big difference between 'coming to Christ' and 'walking with Christ.' We must certainly choose to walk with him, but are not then capable of improving ourselves by ourselves (if that makes sense!) There are definite choices and actions required on our part...a Christian life is not one to be lived passively or in an unconcerned manner.

Hi Rach!

What we have begun in the Spirit must also be continued in the Spirit. The entrance to the kingdom is narrow...but so is the way.

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

This distinction takes away any possible smugness to the one who is obedient to the Lord. The way has been made out to be much broader than Jesus is informing us of. So we begin on our knees...but we continue on our faces. The first humility at conversion must be continued in greater degree. But too much emphasis on this initial salvation as an eternal condition (which it is not) causes most people to raise up and live in the natural man as they did before...with NO DISCIPLESHIP at all.

Ok...I'm not getting the distinction here. What's the difference between being saved in our spirits and saved in our souls??

Being born again is the receiving of grace from heaven. Jesus says it is like receiving a talent...or 3 or 5...etc. We all get different levels of the gift of the Holy Spirit. We then are to work out the salvation of our souls...becoming selfless, patient, Christ like in love...reflecting the very character of God...so we are making a return on investment for the talent(s) we have been entrusted with.

So really the gift we have received is to be used to make something new in us. We bear fruit in this way. If we simply receive the gift of God and then go off rejoicing that we are saved and healed but neglect to go back to Jesus (like the 9 other lepers that were healed but did not return) for His training into holiness...then we will be bound hand and foot and cast into eternal darkness as unprofitable servants.

Hence why I warn people not to go off in their own strength claiming to be saved. God wants us to use the grace He gives us to produce a Christ-like character through the training of Christ BY the Holy Spirit. God wants to make a profit...but many are so selfish that they are against what they consider as "strings attached" to their salvation. So they HATE GOD in truth. But they don't realize that God's desire to make a profit is the best thing for us as well. So there is a continued rebellion of selfishness (iniquity) among many who are saved...they refuse to lay down their lives after they claim salvation....they want to live NOT die! You will see many examples of this on this very forum. It is a marvel to me that men can be so blind.

Actually, no...that doesn't sound foreign at all. Growing in humility...surrendering all to the cross...ongoing process of sanctification...taking the walk seriously....that actually sounds biblical, and I'm in full agreement. I wonder if you could perhaps go a bit deeper into detail for me, in regards to how you see the things above playing out practically in your life? I'm just trying to further clarify here, is all. I've been seriously concerned with some of the things you've said before, but this post had gone a long way to settling a lot of those concerns...thanks. But if you don't mind, perhaps a little more detail on how you see scripture saying we are supposed to 'attain Christ'? Ta...

The most important thing to NOT do after an initial salvation is to neglect coming to the cross of Christ in order to die to sin by the putting down of the natural man that has empowered us until that moment. We must never claim to be justified by what we have believed and what we have done. Many on this forum quickly compare themselves to Abraham and then claim to be justified like him because they also have faith...but this is to inspect oneself and approve oneself....and this in the face of God whom they have not approached in reality. They just get something and go on their merry way...to eventual perdition. There is no such thing as a privately owned eternal salvation.

But when you try to correct an errant one...their pride, selfishness and general carnal characters resist very strongly against the ones trying to "save" them. The irony is that we are trying to save them from themselves (their fallen natures) and they'll kill you for trying so to speak.

Like Paul said

2Co_12:15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.




Like the Sting song...

Like a fish caught on dry land struggling to avoid any helping hand.

Peace

 

[Rach1370]

Dear Rach,

Thank you for the nice letter. Again, very kind, very rare to see here on this website. Thank you :)

However, I don't see where you have any evidence whatsoever to say that Episkopos is saying that "he" or ''we" DO anything of our own power.
Not once.

Hey Whitestone...no problem. I really don't understand why people who claim to be Christians can't disagree with some measure of civility...doesn't make much sense to me!

As far as my conversations with Epi goes....actually, there were many occasions when he did say such things...which is why I wigged out a little! But we've managed to get down to clarifying some things a little more, and my concern is easing. The English language can be a stupid thing, can't it? You're so sure you spelling things out plainly, but others just don't see it. I don't think this is such a very bad thing, as long as the truth gets dug out eventually...sometimes in the back and forward conversations it could actually clarify and benefit others...or so I hope!

Hi Rach!

What we have begun in the Spirit must also be continued in the Spirit. The entrance to the kingdom is narrow...but so is the way.

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

This distinction takes away any possible smugness to the one who is obedient to the Lord. The way has been made out to be much broader than Jesus is informing us of. So we begin on our knees...but we continue on our faces. The first humility at conversion must be continued in greater degree. But too much emphasis on this initial salvation as an eternal condition (which it is not) causes most people to raise up and live in the natural man as they did before...with NO DISCIPLESHIP at all.

So, can I assume that what you're talking about when you say that the path is made out to be much broader than it really is, is that in many 'churches' today they not only ignore many sins, but tell people they're not sinning at all? That way too many people think that just because they recited some prayer at youth camp that they're saved? That people think that just because they acknowledge the existence of God and Jesus, that they are 'Christian'?

The thing I find with the whole discipleship subject, is that some pastors just ignore it, either because they assume we all know what a born again Christian should go on to do...or because, as you say, they think 'being saved' is a one time event that doesn't require us to turn away from our old person.

Being born again is the receiving of grace from heaven. Jesus says it is like receiving a talent...or 3 or 5...etc. We all get different levels of the gift of the Holy Spirit. We then are to work out the salvation of our souls...becoming selfless, patient, Christ like in love...reflecting the very character of God...so we are making a return on investment for the talent(s) we have been entrusted with.

So really the gift we have received is to be used to make something new in us. We bear fruit in this way. If we simply receive the gift of God and then go off rejoicing that we are saved and healed but neglect to go back to Jesus (like the 9 other lepers that were healed but did not return) for His training into holiness...then we will be bound hand and foot and cast into eternal darkness as unprofitable servants.

I completely agree...yes, we are to use the gifts we have been given. But if I may....do you believe that with these gifts the journey still belongs to us alone, or do you agree that even with what God gives to us to use for his glory and our benefit...we still need the Holy Spirits help to do what's right, good and necessary?

Hence why I warn people not to go off in their own strength claiming to be saved. God wants us to use the grace He gives us to produce a Christ-like character through the training of Christ BY the Holy Spirit. God wants to make a profit...but many are so selfish that they are against what they consider as "strings attached" to their salvation. So they HATE GOD in truth. But they don't realize that God's desire to make a profit is the best thing for us as well. So there is a continued rebellion of selfishness (iniquity) among many who are saved...they refuse to lay down their lives after they claim salvation....they want to live NOT die! You will see many examples of this on this very forum. It is a marvel to me that men can be so blind.

Huh...by 'profit'...do you mean that God is actually seeking our good? As in, he calls us to follow his laws, but not because he's a cranky task master, but because he knows that in following them, we will grow and flourish and become more joyful and happy? Which in turn leads to more glory for him?? This...this I agree with 100%. Too many people get all huffy and say that God shouldn't require them to follow rules, that isn't 'freedom in Christ' the right to not follow any rules?? But they totally miss the point! David got it right....God's laws are sweet, because in them we see his perfection and his desire for us to be happy and one with him.

The most important thing to NOT do after an initial salvation is to neglect coming to the cross of Christ in order to die to sin by the putting down of the natural man that has empowered us until that moment. We must never claim to be justified by what we have believed and what we have done. Many on this forum quickly compare themselves to Abraham and then claim to be justified like him because they also have faith...but this is to inspect oneself and approve oneself....and this in the face of God whom they have not approached in reality. They just get something and go on their merry way...to eventual perdition. There is no such thing as a privately owned eternal salvation.

But when you try to correct an errant one...their pride, selfishness and general carnal characters resist very strongly against the ones trying to "save" them. The irony is that we are trying to save them from themselves (their fallen natures) and they'll kill you for trying so to speak.

Like Paul said

2Co_12:15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.

Like the Sting song...

Like a fish caught on dry land struggling to avoid any helping hand.

Peace

Well, sadly I don't know any Sting songs, but I do get your point. I think that we can claim our salvation through faith, but we must know very well that our faith is but a gift itself. Like Ephesians says:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:8-10)

God gives us the gifts of grace and faith, and much more besides...and has plans for us! We need to 'walk in' these plans, for our happiness and growth, and his glory!

Thanks for clearing this up for me Epi...how you say things may be a little different to me, but I actually think we're on the same page.

 

[Episkopos]

Hey Whitestone...no problem. I really don't understand why people who claim to be Christians can't disagree with some measure of civility...doesn't make much sense to me!

As far as my conversations with Epi goes....actually, there were many occasions when he did say such things...which is why I wigged out a little! But we've managed to get down to clarifying some things a little more, and my concern is easing. The English language can be a stupid thing, can't it? You're so sure you spelling things out plainly, but others just don't see it. I don't think this is such a very bad thing, as long as the truth gets dug out eventually...sometimes in the back and forward conversations it could actually clarify and benefit others...or so I hope!




So, can I assume that what you're talking about when you say that the path is made out to be much broader than it really is, is that in many 'churches' today they not only ignore many sins, but tell people they're not sinning at all? That way too many people think that just because they recited some prayer at youth camp that they're saved? That people think that just because they acknowledge the existence of God and Jesus, that they are 'Christian'?

The thing I find with the whole discipleship subject, is that some pastors just ignore it, either because they assume we all know what a born again Christian should go on to do...or because, as you say, they think 'being saved' is a one time event that doesn't require us to turn away from our old person.



I completely agree...yes, we are to use the gifts we have been given. But if I may....do you believe that with these gifts the journey still belongs to us alone, or do you agree that even with what God gives to us to use for his glory and our benefit...we still need the Holy Spirits help to do what's right, good and necessary?



Huh...by 'profit'...do you mean that God is actually seeking our good? As in, he calls us to follow his laws, but not because he's a cranky task master, but because he knows that in following them, we will grow and flourish and become more joyful and happy? Which in turn leads to more glory for him?? This...this I agree with 100%. Too many people get all huffy and say that God shouldn't require them to follow rules, that isn't 'freedom in Christ' the right to not follow any rules?? But they totally miss the point! David got it right....God's laws are sweet, because in them we see his perfection and his desire for us to be happy and one with him.



Well, sadly I don't know any Sting songs, but I do get your point. I think that we can claim our salvation through faith, but we must know very well that our faith is but a gift itself. Like Ephesians says:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:8-10)

God gives us the gifts of grace and faith, and much more besides...and has plans for us! We need to 'walk in' these plans, for our happiness and growth, and his glory!

Thanks for clearing this up for me Epi...how you say things may be a little different to me, but I actually think we're on the same page.

That's great Rach!!! :)

The enemy is very busy stealing potential disciples away from Christ by inoculating them against the truth from the get go. There are very few in these times that have experienced walking in resurrection power. It is probably the best kept secret in the world. The battle of our times is to restore the truth to the church and allow the world to discern what the true gospel actually is. This makes being a disciple now not only challenging but gives us a task and a quest that awakens us and causes us to watch and pray. God is infinitely wise. He has allowed the adversary to infiltrate the church in order to wake up His Bride to the utmost fath.

I am confident that the time is soon coming when we will see the rise of the saints...back to and even surpassing the fervency of the early church. I'm not talking about a circus revival...but a real depth of experience in the knowledge and presence of God. Once the saints are again seen as such by the world and making an impact on the world, the adversary will have no choice but to start the last great persecution thus leading to the end. The rise of the saints culminates in the final preaching of the true gospel of the kingdom before the end. Jesus is actually coming back at the moment His Bride is ready...perfect and spotless living already in His presence...always. Very romantic!!!

Maranatha

 

[us2are1]

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



Grace is the power to become sons of God...but it is not the becoming itself. It must be walked in. The biggest miscalculation to to claim something you haven't yet attained...like counting your chirckesns before they are hatched.

Receiving grace is but the first step.

Php_2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


What is this process that people call "sanctification". (which they see as optional)

It is death before life.

Many cite the thief on the cross to show how "easy" it is to know Jesus Christ. But they forget that the thief DIED with Jesus. So we must also be crucified with Christ in order to be raised with Him....THAT is how you KNOW Jesus. You DIE with Him.

Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Php_3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;


Why does Jesus say...go away I never knew you...???

It is because it is iniquity to claim to be His without ever having made room for Him by being conformed to His death and emptying!!!

You cannot fill a cup that is already full....the cup must first LOSE it's previous content. Likewise a computer cannot have 2 operating systems...one must be taken away first before the other can be installed.

So it is with Christ. We must be emptied in order to be filled.

The body of the flesh must be done away with in order to have Christ actually live through you. The cross is an instrument of death. We follow Jesus through His cross by bearing our own.

2Co_4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.


This is the cost of knowing Jesus....losing our lives for Him to make HIM manifest in this world.


Mar_8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

So all the claiming to be saved that people do these days...claiming to know Him because of their claims where one can actually know Him if one is prepared to pay the cost.

But salvation is free they say....Well yes it is freely given but it will cost you everything to walk in it and know Jesus Christ.

This is why the gate is so narrow and the way is also narrow. How many who profess Christ are actually known of Him???? Few indeed.

2Pe_1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Be wise not smug...watch and pray don't sleep...don't presume anything but seek. MANY are called but few are chosen

Amen Episkopos

Good Post

Hi whitestone,

We clearly differ in understanding of scriptures as we both follow different gospels.

A Christians works are to believe on Jesus (John 6:29). It's by grace that we are saved, not of works of the law, Eph 2:7-9

But you see works in the same way as Paul did before his conversion. Perfect obedience to the law. According to the righteousness which is in the law, Paul was blameless (Phil 3:6), just as the works crowd here also preaches.

But Paul counted that dung, to instead be found in Christ having the righteousness which is of God by faith (Phil 3:9).

What you have said here is not even true Haz..
Whitestone is talking about believing in Christ to the doing of What Christ taught and you are talking about continuing in sin that grace may abound.

Romans 6
[background=rgb(246, 246, 152)]1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? [/background]2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Stop sinning and start following Christ. The floods of Noah are on their way.
Stop sinning and start believing in Christ. The fires of Sodom and Gomorrah are on their way.

[background=rgb(246, 246, 152)]26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: [/background]27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

 

[whitestone]

Epi and Rach, what a beautiful exchange of words. You are both Blessed :)

If we were to "see" that the Body of Christ is in fact, Christ Himself within us, and each of us is part of that Body of His, it would go far to clear up some misunderstandings here.
The main misunderstanding is found surrounding the "righteousness" that comes forth from this Body of Christ.
Is it Christ's righteousness that causes us to be perfect?
Or are some here claiming it is their "own" righteousness that makes them perfect?

Epi has nailed it as well as has Axe and Dragonfly.
Christ's righteousness in us is how we manifest perfection.
He does it. We don't.
That is the only way we can remain sinless after being forgiven, is by the Power of the Spirit of Christ in us, who ALREADY has overcome temptation in Himself, and now overcomes temptation in His Body, Me! And You! :)

This is the Kingdom of God.
Righteousness, Joy and Peace.
Not by our own works, but by the Work He is accomplishing in us moment by moment. In His Holy Spirit.

This is the awesome salvation of the Gospel, a free gift, and believing it and receiving it IS the Faithfulness of Abraham which saves.

O the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus our Lord Risen and Come into our Temple Bodies!

Peace
Whitestone

 

[Episkopos]

Epi and Rach, what a beautiful exchange of words. You are both Blessed :)

If we were to "see" that the Body of Christ is in fact, Christ Himself within us, and each of us is part of that Body of His, it would go far to clear up some misunderstandings here.
The main misunderstanding is found surrounding the "righteousness" that comes forth from this Body of Christ.
Is it Christ's righteousness that causes us to be perfect?
Or are some here claiming it is their "own" righteousness that makes them perfect?

Epi has nailed it as well as has Axe and Dragonfly.
Christ's righteousness in us is how we manifest perfection.
He does it. We don't.
That is the only way we can remain sinless after being forgiven, is by the Power of the Spirit of Christ in us, who ALREADY has overcome temptation in Himself, and now overcomes temptation in His Body, Me! And You! :)

This is the Kingdom of God.
Righteousness, Joy and Peace.
Not by our own works, but by the Work He is accomplishing in us moment by moment. In His Holy Spirit.

This is the awesome salvation of the Gospel, a free gift, and believing it and receiving it IS the Faithfulness of Abraham which saves.

O the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus our Lord Risen and Come into our Temple Bodies!

Peace
Whitestone

Amen! ;) Beautifully said!

 

[haz]

Amen Episkopos

Good Post


What you have said here is not even true Haz..
Whitestone is talking about believing in Christ to the doing of What Christ taught and you are talking about continuing in sin that grace may abound.

Romans 6
[background=rgb(246, 246, 152)]1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? [/background]2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Stop sinning and start following Christ. The floods of Noah are on their way.
Stop sinning and start believing in Christ. The fires of Sodom and Gomorrah are on their way.

[background=rgb(246, 246, 152)]26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: [/background]27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

Hi Son of Man,

Why would you think I speak of continuning in sin? You misunderstand.

Whilst I agree with whistone that God makes changes in us, I differ with his gospel that without a perfect lifestyle one is not abiding in Christ and faces death for sin.

Noting whitestone's imperfect behavior on this forum I wonder what his standing is now.

The gospel you and your friends follow is ( to use another bloggers words to Epi) an 'on-again-off-again salvation'.
Whistone claimed he lives a perfect life, but then he behaved badly on this forum thus losing his standing in Christ.
This is a complicated gospel conditional on whether one is living a perfect lifestyle continually.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

I differ with his gospel that without a perfect lifestyle one is not abiding in Christ and faces death for sin.

You've said this many times, now, so I have a question for you.


What is the definition of 'perfect' which is in your mind when you write the word? If you can clarify that, it would be helpful.

Thanks.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Son of Man,

Why would you think I speak of continuning in sin? You misunderstand.

Whilst I agree with whistone that God makes changes in us, I differ with his gospel that without a perfect lifestyle one is not abiding in Christ and faces death for sin.

Noting whitestone's imperfect behavior on this forum I wonder what his standing is now.

The gospel you and your friends follow is ( to use another bloggers words to Epi) an 'on-again-off-again salvation'.
Whistone claimed he lives a perfect life, but then he behaved badly on this forum thus losing his standing in Christ.
This is a complicated gospel conditional on whether one is living a perfect lifestyle continually.

The problem with judging from oneself is that one is doing so blindly. WE do not have enough wisdom to judge spiritual things...on our own. So impossible sounding things are rejected through a lack of faith based on a lack of wisdom based on a lack of understanding. But you forget that it is God speaking. Remember that He is holy...He is not a man limited to a carnal reasoning. So what is wiser...to trust God or go with your own "gut feeling" ????

 

[whitestone]

Hi Son of Man,

Why would you think I speak of continuning in sin? You misunderstand.

Whilst I agree with whistone that God makes changes in us, I differ with his gospel that without a perfect lifestyle one is not abiding in Christ and faces death for sin.

Noting whitestone's imperfect behavior on this forum I wonder what his standing is now.

The gospel you and your friends follow is ( to use another bloggers words to Epi) an 'on-again-off-again salvation'.
Whistone claimed he lives a perfect life, but then he behaved badly on this forum thus losing his standing in Christ.
This is a complicated gospel conditional on whether one is living a perfect lifestyle continually.

Anything and everything I've said on this forum comes from the Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus, from His Love, from His chastening, so that you Haz, and those who rebel and fight against the Word of God and the messengers of the Word of God on this forum, would have opportunity to repent of the words of hatred and false teachings you push.
I have not sinned here in chastening those given to the carnal mind in their sins against the messengers of the Word of Everlasting Gospel. Nor do I have ought to apologize to anyone for any word I've spoken in this, but as long as I observe such ugliness, I will continue rebuking the enemy for his ungodly words and ungodly deeds as I observe them. Complaining about it and saying my conduct bothers them is their problem. I stand before Christ or fall before Him judged by no man. And I call it as it is. It is what I do. It if is a problem for you Haz, repent of your sins and realize that sin only leads to death and your attitude in allowing it in your life only shows that you have no light in you. Worry about yourself and your conduct. Don't worry about the one ministering rebuke against your wickedness. That is none of your concern. Thus saith the Lord.
(Joh 11:10)

But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

 

[haz]

Hi haz,



You've said this many times, now, so I have a question for you.


What is the definition of 'perfect' which is in your mind when you write the word? If you can clarify that, it would be helpful.

Thanks.

Hi dragonfly,

You asked for clarification of 'perfect'. It's probably better you explain this as it's your gospel that demands this.

I have used that term regarding lifestyle in an effort to find a happy medium that is acceptable to you guys.
No offence, but the deliberate 'obfuscated', messages and 'ploys' you, and especially Epi and Prentis, use, it seems your trying to hide your full doctrine. Forums are difficult enough to get a message across without using such methods.

Can you please give us details of what things perfect obedience is required on. Just a simple list in bullet form will do. Maybe this can help clarify discussions here.

Thanks

 

[Episkopos]

We are to be fully pleasing to God.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.


The issue some people have in this forum is with the very book they have concocted their own salvation from. Who ever heard of a religion that rejects it's own book?

These follow neither the Bible nor the Spirit.