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farouk

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There's absolutely no hope built in to this doctrine. Think about it. If you're a person who's prone to uncertainty about your resolve, unless the Holy Spirit does some kind of hocus-pocus on you, you live your entire Christian life counting on your sincerity. It isn't worth a hill of beans to me. If I can't look to God's grace and His promise to be the Author and Finisher of my faith, I have no hope.
Faith is the key. Assurance is a key theme in John's First Epistle. The true believer is not finally lost.
 

marks

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Getting forgiveness does not change us.
His love does not change us.
Something in us has to change, how is that going to get done ?
But as many as receive Him, believing in His name, to them He gave the right to be born again . . . born of God.

Put on the new man, which is created after God, in righteousness and true holiness.

If any be in Christ he is a new creature, old things are passed away, Look! all things are become new! Now all things are of God . . .

Much love!
 

justbyfaith

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(1Jn 1:6-10) proves you wrong.

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Walking in darkness and lying is sin we do. (1Jn 3:4).
1 John 3:5-9 proves me right.
 

justbyfaith

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Doesn't He see the real you?

Yes, Hebrews 4:13. The Holy Spirit deals with us on the basis of our sins. But rhe Father sees us through rose-colored glasses, so to speak...He sees us through the shed blood of Christ.
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I believe that we abide in Christ "through' faith in Jesus and by staying in close communion / relationship with Him.

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What basis for fellowship with God can there be outside of the work of Jesus on the cross? Having trusted Him, having been reborn, do we then add our behavior?

It is not our behaviour that we add, but rather a part of being saved is that we will not hide from the Lord as did Adam but we will be transparent before God.

If these things are true, then why does relationship with God need to be restored following sin?

Let me put it in different terms than before. Our relationship with God is secure as our position in Christ. Fellowship and connectedness, however, needs to be restored when we sin, because in Isaiah 59:2 it is evident that sin separates us from the Lord. Because relationship has more than one meaning. My relationship to God is that He is my Father and brother and bridegroom. But my relationship with God has to do with how I relate to Him. If I am hiding my sins from His light, then my relationship with Him is off-base. But my relationship to Him has not changed.
 

marks

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It is not our behaviour that we add, but rather a part of being saved is that we will not hide from the Lord as did Adam but we will be transparent before God.
That's behavior. How you act. If you act (and to me this includes thinking, since that's something we 'do') in "hiding" way, or if you act in a "transparent" way.

Much love!
 

Mr C

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Hi @Mr C The true believer is repentant; a true believer is never lost; the eternal security of the believer is important in Romans 8.38-39. But those who profess faith but live and die in unbelief were never believers in the first place.

The Rich man was Jew. He died and ended up in torment. Once a child of God now in torment forever.(Luke 16)

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
(KJV)
 

justbyfaith

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That's behavior. How you act. If you act (and to me this includes thinking, since that's something we 'do') in "hiding" way, or if you act in a "transparent" way.

Much love!
No, transparency is an attitude...like faith...that produces behaviour.
 

marks

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I would say yes. What do you think?
I think He sees us, and that He is fully involved with us in a real way. No pretending. No rose colored glasses. Only us, reborn, that is, begotten from God. He gave birth to us. He looks at us and sees His children, who share His nature. Just like in our first creation, our birth from the line of Adam, we shared his nature, now, being born from God, we share His nature.

So when God looks at us, He sees who we are, in reality, His children, righteous, holy, and living in a corrupt body of flesh.

Since He has justified us from our sins, we have no sin to get in the way. We are pure, because we are born from God. God does not birth corruption.

He shares our lives with us, and trains us in how to overcome that old man.

Much love!
 

justbyfaith

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I think He sees us, and that He is fully involved with us in a real way. No pretending. No rose colored glasses. Only us, reborn, that is, begotten from God. He gave birth to us. He looks at us and sees His children, who share His nature. Just like in our first creation, our birth from the line of Adam, we shared his nature, now, being born from God, we share His nature.

So when God looks at us, He sees who we are, in reality, His children, righteous, holy, and living in a corrupt body of flesh.

Since He has justified us from our sins, we have no sin to get in the way. We are pure, because we are born from God. God does not birth corruption.

He shares our lives with us, and trains us in how to overcome that old man.

Much love!
I believe that the Father doesn't see our vile bodies and the indwelling sin that so easily besets us in temptation, when He looks at us in one sense; but in another sense He does.

He is not blind to reality; but on the other hand we are forgiven of all of our sins and He is going to remember them no more; and I think that He does this from the perspective of eternity.
 

marks

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I believe that the Father doesn't see our vile bodies and the indwelling sin that so easily besets us in temptation, when He looks at us in one sense; but in another sense He does.

He is not blind to reality; but on the other hand we are forgiven of all of our sins and He is going to remember them no more; and I think that He does this from the perspective of eternity.
I think He sees each part for what it is. And in the present moment.

I think God deals with me just as I am right now.

Much love!
 

farouk

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The Rich man was Jew. He died and ended up in torment. Once a child of God now in torment forever.(Luke 16)

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
(KJV)
...but those who died in unbelief were never true believers in the first place.
 

justbyfaith

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I think He sees each part for what it is. And in the present moment.

I think God deals with me just as I am right now.

Much love!
I believe that God is outside of time and that therefore, He sees all things from the perspective of His position in eternity.

And of course He deals with each one of us on a moment-by-moment basis.
 

Enoch111

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Well, that is NOT what Behold believes.
*Behold* has already outed himself as being very confused (while promoting spiritual confusion). I am glad we both agree on something that fundamental. If Pilate was around he would say "Behold the man who is confused".:D

That is "ecce homo qui est confusa".
 

Mr C

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...but those who died in unbelief were never true believers in the first place.
No scripture to prove your opinion.

Simon obeyed the gospel just as the Samaritans (Acts 8:5,12,13).

Therefore if the Samaritans were saved so was Simon.

Peter would have never told a sinner to pray for forgiveness b/c God hears not sinners (Jn 9:31).


Joh 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners:

Some did fall from the grace of God (Num. 14:12) (Gal.5:4) (Rev.3:5).



...I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,... (Rev. 3:5).

The above statement implies the Lord will blot out some names from the book of life.

Why were those names in the book of life?

B/c they were saved.

Who placed those names in the book of life?

The Lord did.
 
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