If justification and rebirth are the same, then all those who are justified by faith will never sin again (1 John 3:9).
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OK, so then in your mind, anyone who is reborn will never sin again, but you can be justified before that, and not be reborn, that is, to remain entirely the child of Adam, the old man.
So there's a question. Who is the 'new man'? And how do you go from "justified" to "reborn"? And how is one reborn if not through the death and resurrection of Jesus? Or if that is the rebirth, well, Romans 6 removes that thought, since justification is clearly through the death and resurrection of Christ.
But then, what does it mean in Roman 6, the one who has died has been justified away from sin?
OK, sorry! more than just 'a' question!
Much love!
Maybe I've missed it, but I'm not finding an answer.
My question is this, do you consider it to be a real possibility that you might stop trusting Jesus before you die? And in stopping trusting Him, end your relationship with Him?
Much love!
See, there's a certain part that you allude to, but don't come right out and say. And you seem adverse to answering questions that relate to that part.
And what it sounds like, which I've been trying to find a clear statement from you, is that you believe that it's up to you whether you trust Jesus or not, and that while you are trusting Him, you remain saved, but if you stop trusting Him, you will stop being saved. And in this, you are keeping yourself saved by ensuring that you continue to trust in Jesus.
Am I correct?
Much love!
Hi @marks,
I do believe that we are kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:5) and that those who are begotten of God (1 Peter 1:3) do keep themselves (1 John 5:18).
But there is also a sense in which the Lord keeps us; because faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) and a gift of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:9); and therefore, because we are sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5), faith will continue to be a factor in our lives for as long as we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.
That being said, I do not believe that the Luke 8:13 believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit; while they do have faith. Their faith is nominal, shallow, or lukewarm. It is not the heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14) that is also unto everlasting life (John 6:47); as opposed to Luke 8:13 faith, which, when tested, the person who has it will fall away and thus not be saved any more (if they had salvation in the first place because of their faith).
I consider that my faith is not a Luke 8:13 faith; while I am also certain that Jesus knows the reality of the matter if it is in fact the case.
2Ti 2:18, Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19, Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
I do believe that we are kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:5) and that those who are begotten of God (1 Peter 1:3) do keep themselves (1 John 5:18).
But there is also a sense in which the Lord keeps us; because faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) and a gift of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:9); and therefore, because we are sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5), faith will continue to be a factor in our lives for as long as we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.
That being said, I do not believe that the Luke 8:13 believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit; while they do have faith. Their faith is nominal, shallow, or lukewarm. It is not the heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14) that is also unto everlasting life (John 6:47); as opposed to Luke 8:13 faith, which, when tested, the person who has it will fall away and thus not be saved any more (if they had salvation in the first place because of their faith).
I consider that my faith is not a Luke 8:13 faith; while I am also certain that Jesus knows the reality of the matter if it is in fact the case.
2Ti 2:18, Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19, Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
I have a similar question for you. If someone has faith and is not saved by it (as in the case of Luke 8:13 in your estimation), how do we know that we are saved? Because obviously we might not be saved even though we have faith.
I will try to answer more of your question below.
To be reborn, one must repent and receive the remission of sins (through baptism in Jesus' Name?).
Remission being, as with a cancer, being put out of commission so that it is no longer dangerous to the body.
There was a friend of mine who liked to ask people this question . . . Have you been a Christian long enough to know you are one?
I like that!
The demons believe, but are not reborn. I believe that I am reborn because God said that if I trusted in Jesus I would be. I hate sin and love God. And God has tipped His hand, if you will, for me personally, and I believe I know my Creator, and that I'm reconciled to Him.
I may believe that unless I diet, I'll be sick. So what? Believing that doesn't affect my health.
But if I diet, relying on that to improve my health, that's believing.
If you believe that to be reborn, you will never again sin, then your confidence in your rebirth will be as strong as your confidence in your own sinlessness.
And unless you truly believe that you don't sin - and not just that, but you're right, you don't sin - then you are left in the condition of believing, but that could end, and you be lost.
How can God talk so much about our having a certainty of eternal life, but then make it uncertain?
Only if we are keeping ourselves saved do we have that uncertainty. Because God has said what He's doing, we're been predestined to become like Jesus.
Much love!
So then your end remains in question in your mind. I understand, but I don't believe that agrees with Scripture. I appreciate the discussion, and your patience with me!
Much love!
But, are you saying that the believers in Luke 8:13 didn't trust in Jesus then? And if they did, what differentiates you from them?
Yes, I believe that my continuing in the faith is partially dependent on me (1 Peter 1:3, 1 John 5:18).
Read the rest of my post. We begin there, but we do not stay there.
In the time of testing they fall away, because they were not reborn, they only had an emotional experience. There was no salvation. The word did not take root in them.
We rejoice in tribulation knowing tribulation works endurance, and endurance, experience, and experience, expectation. Testings prove the genuineness of our faith, and in the time of testing we do not fall away.
Much love!
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Then you are keeping yourself saved. Your salvation in the end depends on your ability to maintain your faith, and if you fail, salvation is lost. So it's on you.
Isn't that how it has to be?
Much love!
There is the issue of the fact that we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6) as believers; and therefore sin is not imputed to us (Romans 4:8, Romans 5:13).
So, my status as being born of God does not depend on my practical walk...
However, my understanding of 1 John 3:9 is that it can be applied practically...
So that if I am born of God I find that the scripture teaches that there will be a change of life and character that is the difference between night and day.
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It is dependent on my faith.
However, my faith isn't dependent on me.
It is a gift of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:9) and a fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). So, it is instilled within me for as long as I have the Spirit. And I am also sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5).
But haven't you been saying that if you 'lose your faith' then you will not remain born again?
So, if you lose your faith, it is because God failed to maintain it within you? I'd agree with that. But I don't see God failing at that! Not at all!
Much love!
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