Grace vs Legalism

[justbyfaith]

So, if you lose your faith, it is because God failed to maintain it within you? I'd agree with that. But I don't see God failing at that! Not at all!

:)

Much love!

What about in the case of the Luke 8:13 believer?

 

[marks]

So, it is instilled within me for as long as I have the Spirit. And I am also sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14,

Sealed by the Holy Spirit, this passage really puts this discussion into perspective for me.

Sealed by the Holy Spirit, that's a seal of ownership. Sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. God owns us, and continues to assert His ownership through His Holy Spirit that we will continue in His ownership "unto the redemption of His Own possession." This is no longer being decided by you or I. We've been bought. I don't own me, and I don't decide what happens to me. God owns me, and He's already decided. I'm to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

Then you are keeping yourself saved. Your salvation in the end depends on your ability to maintain your faith, and if you fail, salvation is lost. So it's on you.

Isn't that how it has to be?

Much love!

1Jo 5:18, We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[marks]

Faith is not dependent on my walk.

Faith Is our walk, I think!

We walk by faith, what we do, we do either in or out of our faith, including practicing or not practicing our faith.

Disbelief is a work of the flesh.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

Sealed by the Holy Spirit, this passage really puts this discussion into perspective for me.

Sealed by the Holy Spirit, that's a seal of ownership. Sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. God owns us, and continues to assert His ownership through His Holy Spirit that we will continue in His ownership "unto the redemption of His Own possession." This is no longer being decided by you or I. We've been bought. I don't own me, and I don't decide what happens to me. God owns me, and He's already decided. I'm to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Much love!

So it is a matter of making your calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:10).

Making sure that you are not a Luke 8:13 believer but a Romans 10:10, John 6:47 believer.

 

[marks]

1Jo 5:18, We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Yes! Do you see the possibility of failure in that passage? I don't.

You can understand this as either, "and the evil one touches him not", or equally, "and the evil touches him not." The noun can be personal or impersonal.

Either way, We KNOW that this agrees completely with the rest of the Bible, that we are new creations, that God has made sure that in Him we are safe.

There is no failure, because we are alive in Christ, and Christ has already overcome. By faith in Him we overcome, and now we're talking the day by day faith. We are secure in Him, and the same reason that we are secure is the same reason we have power over sin and the flesh. The one who has died has been justified away from sin. Dead to sin, alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So it is a matter of making your calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:10).

Making sure that you are not a Luke 8:13 believer but a Romans 10:10, John 6:47 believer.

Amen!!

:)

 

[justbyfaith]

Faith Is our walk, I think!

We walk by faith, what we do, we do either in or out of our faith, including practicing or not practicing our faith.

Disbelief is a work of the flesh.

Much love!

I said that

So, my status as being born of God does not depend on my practical walk...

You said:

But haven't you been saying that if you 'lose your faith' then you will not remain born again?

So I said that my faith does not depend on my walk.

Rather, my walk depends on my faith.

So then, if my walk is not necessarily up to par, it is not going to affect my faith.

So, my status as a born again believer is not dependent on my practical walk.

My practical walk is dependent on my status as a born again believer.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes! Do you see the possibility of failure in that passage? I don't.

You can understand this as either, "and the evil one touches him not", or equally, "and the evil touches him not." The noun can be personal or impersonal.

Either way, We KNOW that this agrees completely with the rest of the Bible, that we are new creations, that God has made sure that in Him we are safe.

There is no failure, because we are alive in Christ, and Christ has already overcome. By faith in Him we overcome, and now we're talking the day by day faith. We are secure in Him, and the same reason that we are secure is the same reason we have power over sin and the flesh. The one who has died has been justified away from sin. Dead to sin, alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Much love!

I am certainly all for the understanding that we are eternally secure in Christ; but that this is dependent on what kind of faith we have.

 

[APAK]

Thats a lie.
Dont teach that lie on my Thread, Legalist.
God saves you, and keeps you saved.
YOu do not keep yourself saved by repenting, or by any such self effort.

Just found your posts....I agree in spirit your words of truth and biblical persuasion. I'm not Messianic although I do know of your group and have some mates belonging to it. I do not believe in the Trinity as I believe you and your group do. I associate more with classic biblical Monotheism, of the Biblical Unitarian and Christadephian groups....there is One Father also as the Holy Spirit and one Son of God of the Father. The Father is the architect and planner of our salvation, and the Son is the executioner of it all that brought salvation in spirit to all men that are reborn as the new creatures of God's desire.

Like many of your posts in general....and welcome!

Bless you,

APAK

 

[marks]

I am certainly all for the understanding that we are eternally secure in Christ; but that this is dependent on what kind of faith we have.

I've got to go . . . great conversation!

Here's a question . . . how can we be certain for ourselves? How can I know that I have eternal life? The Bible says we can know. So how can we be sure? I think we Can be sure.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

I've got to go . . . great conversation!

Here's a question . . . how can we be certain for ourselves? How can I know that I have eternal life? The Bible says we can know. So how can we be sure? I think we Can be sure.

Much love!

I believe that if we do what it says in Deuteronomy 4:29 and Jeremiah 29:13 that at the end of the process (when we find Him) we can be certain of our calling and election without a doubt.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The unpardonable sin is only committed before you are born again.
Its the sin of UNBELIEF.....its not the sin of stupidity or apostacy that you can commit and yet you are born again.

If a person dies a Christ Rejector, they have died UNPARDONED......or as Jesus says...."you have died in your SINS".
ONLY an unbeliever can commit this sin.
And the worst way you can commit it is to be a WILLFUL UNBELIEVER< as this person is enlightened, they KNOW the truth, but refuse it.

= Unsaved Hebrews "if we sin WILLFULLY"< Paul is telling them about what THEY are doing.

Obviously I am seeing more in the passage than you are. What you and marks are doing is closed minded. You believe in OSAS so much that you try to change the clear meaning of scripture to fit it. I've always had an open mind, and keeping growing.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Christ rejection is not found in those verses.
Maybe you should double check.
The Unpardonable sin is Christ Rejection, till death.

ROFL How otherwise could they partake of the Holy Spirit at some point in their life if not a believer in Jesus Christ? That's impossible. The sin of apostasy is having Jesus then turning from Him to another god, or atheism.

 

[Behold]

Good way to put it, having faith in "faith" instead of faith in Christ.

Much love!

Yes,

there are many Believers, generally they are "charismatic" or "pentecostal", which is, basically the same thing, who are trying to keep themselves saved.
So, then it becomes......Pick a way to do it.
And when you talk to them, they each have their version of how they are trying to stay saved.
This includes commandment keeping, or keeping the law. It includes enduring to the end. It includes abiding by self effort, it includes holding onto their faith, and in most cases, its a few of these, and maybe more.
What does this mean? It means that they may very well be saved, but they have moved from faith in Christ to faith in self effort.
Its always the same......its some type of self effort, (works) to try to get into heaven, or stay saved.

 

[Behold]

Thank you! It's not often that I'm welcomed into a thread, lol.
I also believe that Paul asked the Galatians who had "bewitched" them because of the other problem he was addressing in this epistle. .

The "bewitching process" happens to most Christians.
Its very rare that a believer does not at some point find a way to stop trusting in Christ alone to get them into Heaven, and replace Him with some type of self effort.
Such as :

SELF Abiding
SELF Enduring to the end
SELF keeping the law and commandments
SELF holding onto faith

It very rare to find a believer who isnt "bewitched", as Paul defines them, who has not left their faith in Christ and found a substitute in some type of self effort to try to stay saved and get into heaven. = SELF SAVER.
They sound like this....."well, yes i know that Jesus saved me....BUT.... BUT..now i have to do and do and do and be careful that i dont do and dont do, and if i accomplish all that i get to go to heaven in the end". = SELF SAVING. = FLESH....."in the Flesh". As Paul defines them.

And all that is to become "bewitched", as Paul defines it, and become totaly involved with "flesh", walking in the flesh,= in an effort to be your own savior.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I've never actually heard someone teach that. That grace makes sin OK? Who says that?

Who? You're kidding, right?

The reality is........The Blood of Christ has already cleansed our Sin.....all of it.....>Tomorrow's included.
If you don't understand this, and you have been falsely taught that your sin till the Cross is forgiven, and you then get God to take care of the new ones, by repenting, ... = you have been mislead and are practicing a waste of your time.

If you'll take your NT and turn to Colossians 2:13 AND THEN Romans 4:8, you will find an amazing discovery that, if you will believe it, will transform your Life in Christ.

Colossians 2:13 ...Paul teaches you that ALL your sin is gone, forgiven, remitted, redeemed, by Christ on the Cross.
Roman 4:8 Paul then confirms that God does not ever again, hold you accountable for your sin, in eternity.
He can't, as all your sin, ALL OF IT, Paul just told you is taken care of by Jesus on the Cross as the Blood Atonement.
So, your sin is gone, and when you are confessing and repenting of what is not being charged to you, you are wasting your Christian Life.
God does not re-clean you, every time you mess up and tell Him you are sorry.
He has already CLEANED you with the Blood of Jesus, 2000 yrs ago.
Now, when you can SEE THIS, you have taken your first real steps inside the Grace of God, as Right Believing.

Romans 5:20 "Where SIN abounds...Grace moreso Abounds".... = means....when you sin, (works of the Flesh ) after you are saved, the Blood Atonement has already paid for that one ALSO.... It means that when you sin a year from now, on a Monday morning, just before you come here to argue about OSAS, and you sin again (works of the Flesh)....THE CROSS has already taken care of that one also.
Realize the revelation that something that happened 2000+ years ago on a CROSS, is STILL your Salvation 20 yrs from NOW !
Saint, if God didnt take care of all your sin when you were saved, you'd be hell bound the same day you were born again.
You can't save yourself, and you can't keep yourself CLEAN.
You have to TRUST IN CHRIST at some point, with real Faith, so that your walk of faith is inside the Grace of God, trusting in CHRIST ALONE to KEEP YOU SAVED.
Until you can see this, and start to exist there in your MIND, then you will live outside the understanding of the Grace of God and continue to exist as a confessing repenting Discipleship FAILURE.

If a Legalist-Heretic.... could actually comprehend that you can't out-sin the BLOOD of CHRIST, that this blood has actively and permanently SOLVED your "sin" issue, then what a happy Christian they would be, as then they could actually Trust Christ totally., and not just partly.
This is why Jesus died for you. Its what He's doing on the Cross. He is Paying for (cleansing) our sin, from us, by dying FOR IT ALL.
And He DID.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The "bewitching process" happens to most Christians.
Its very rare that a believer does not at some point find a way to stop trusting in Christ alone to get them into Heaven, and replace Him with some type of self effort.
Such as :

SELF Abiding
SELF Enduring to the end
SELF keeping the law and commandments
SELF holding onto faith

It very rare to find a believer who isnt "bewitched", as Paul defines them, who has not left their faith in Christ and found a substitute in some type of self effort to try to stay saved and get into heaven. = SELF SAVER.
They sound like this....."well, yes i know that Jesus saved me....BUT.... BUT..now i have to do and do and do and be careful that i dont do and dont do, and if i accomplish all that i get to go to heaven in the end". = SELF SAVING. = FLESH....."in the Flesh". As Paul defines them.

And all that is to become "bewitched", as Paul defines it, and become totaly involved with "flesh", walking in the flesh,= in an effort to be your own savior.

I have found that it is also rare to find a believer who loves.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I have found that it is also rare to find a believer who loves.

Agape Love is not always a feel-good kiss.

Proverbs 27:
5 Open rebuke is better
Than love carefully concealed.
6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend,
But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Matthew 23:
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Agape Love is not always a feel-good kiss.

Proverbs 27:
5 Open rebuke is better
Than love carefully concealed.
6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend,
But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Matthew 23:
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.

Yup, show me a believer who truly loves in word and deed, and I will have my hope restored that this is possible. Perhaps I'm not looking hard enough.