Grace

[Behold]

Exactly!



Meanwhile, Sanctification isn't left half undone. We just are called to live that way.

And we do that by letting go of all hope of making it happen by our own steam! And embracing the wonderful truth that Jesus did it all for me!!!

Much love!

Amen brother.
Preach it !!

 

[marks]

Sanctification is Christ who is our Sanctification and our Justification and our redemption.

An excellent passage to show this truth!

Jesus Christ IS our sanctification, and He lives in us, not more today than yesterday, simply, He lives in me!

And that's my objection to this terminology of "progressive sanctification", it takes away from Christ in me, the expectation of glory. Christ already fills me completely! There is no lack!

Should we teach otherwise?

Much love!

 

[David H.]

The term "progressive sanctification" seems more to me to be phenomenal language, in that it describes someone's experience of their life. As if to to say, "I feel more sanctified this week than last week". It anticipates the experience, "I will feel more sanctified next week". Therefore, I am being "progressively sanctified".

Its always the theology of the Legalist who is "progressively sanctifying themselves" trying to stay saved and hoping to end up in heaven.
Another term for it, is "works".

From Got Questions which i posted above.....
"Both the passive role and the active role are necessary for a healthy Christian life. To emphasize the passive role tends to lead to spiritual laziness and a neglect of spiritual discipline. The end result of this course of action is a lack of maturity. To emphasize the active role can lead to legalism, pride, and self-righteousness. The end result of this is a joyless Christian life. We must remember that we pursue holiness, but only as God empowers us to do so. The end result is a consistent, mature Christian life that faithfully reflects the nature of our holy God."

What Both you and @Behold are advocating is a form of "Spiritual laziness", in denying our active role in this progressive sanctification. The real problem is submission to the will of God, a form of UNBELIEF, and leads to a lack of "Spiritual maturity". By the same token, the Opposite is problematic and leads to legalism, the KEY is that "God empowers us to do so", We do not do this by our own will and strength, But by the will of God, and the WORK of the Holy Spirit in us this being the point of emphasizing Ephesians 2:10 in stating that those who often quote Ephesians 2:8-9 often neglect verse 10.

The Problem simply is submission problem.... Our will, unwilling to submit to God, which manifests in a form of partial unbelief in the providence of God. @Behold Mocks me for using the term "Laodicean complacency", But this is the very heart of the problem we are discussing here, and this is the sin of Laodicea. Saying they are rich and in need of nothing (Self deception) all the while they are Spiritually poor, naked, blind etc. (Revelation 3:17-22) Until you, and @Behold can ask yourself "am I living in Spiritual complacency?" and be zealous and repent as encouraged in this letter, until you internalize these instructions you will continue to deceive yourself in this way. Self deception is the hardest kind of deception to break free from, It took me 20+ years of living a "Christian church going life" to realize how truly wretched and immature I was spiritually, before I cried out in Godly repentance.... zealous repentance.... living a life of Repentance..... That HE began to work in me powerfully and empowered by the Spirit.

What I am going to say next is probably going to anger you..... The immature in Spirit cannot grasp these things because of their own self delusion, It is like an elder parent trying to discuss life with a teenager who thinks he knows it all. From your perspective, this seems like "Spiritual pride and self righteousness" as the link above speaks of, But truly it is not. It is just a reality of the maturation process, which Paul and the author of Hebrews speaks of (See 1 Corinthians 3:1-5, and Hebrews 5:12-14) and are indicative of the immaturity of this "complacent Christianity". In Other words all the mocking comments from @Behold here only prove my point of his lack of Maturity Spiritually and this is the fruit of this doctrine of Grace he holds, and he is swaying you as well in that direction, which is why I am addressing you and not him in these comments. I see in your doctrine more of a balanced view of the Christian walk as outlined above in the GotQuestions link. But yet you are in a way deceiving yourself because there is a "comfort and feeling of security" in this false understanding..... peace and safety as Scripture points to.... which brings this video to mind....

 

[marks]

"Both the passive role and the active role are necessary for a healthy Christian life. To emphasize the passive role tends to lead to spiritual laziness and a neglect of spiritual discipline.

Scripture please.

You'd have me to debate with someone not even present, and in, again, terms that aren't used in the Bible. Passive and active roles necessary for a healty Christian life?

Engage in a relationship with God.

Is this so called passive role which you appear to denigrate the life of "by faith, and not by sight"? The righteous ones shall live by faith.

It is faith In Christ, and He will then go on to produce in us a spiritually disciplined life.

But to you, a complete trust and submission to Christ is spiritual laziness.

In the passage, "Abraham was strong in faith, giving glory to God", so many people, it seems, understand this to mean that Abraham was a might man of faith, and he gave God the glory for the outcome. But wording here doesn't really show the passive voice of the verb, "was strong", so that a more complete understanding of the passage is that Abraham was strengthened in his faith, and this gave God the glory for it. Not something Abraham did by discipline, it's something God did for him, and Abraham then lived accordingly.

It's just like where we're told to work out our salvation, because God works inside us both to will and do what pleases Him.

The Problem simply is submission problem.... Our will, unwilling to submit to God, which manifests in a form of partial unbelief in the providence of God. @Behold Mocks me for using the term "Laodicean complacency",

And do you assume I'm not submitted to God?

If you are unwilling to submit, this is a personal issue to be worked out between you and Him.

The end result of this is a joyless Christian life.

Do you believe you can rejoice overwhelmingly in the Lord right now, today, this moment, regardless of your circumstances, by trusting Jesus, and the complete and full efficacy of His salvation?

I do, and with good reason!

Much love!

 

[marks]

What Both you and @Behold are advocating is a form of "Spiritual laziness", in denying our active role in this progressive sanctification.

Nonsense!

Continuing to make such unfounded accusations does not contribute to the discussion. If you have a question, feel free to ask it. I in no wise advocate any sort of spiritual laziness!

Accept it, reject it, your choice.

You've not answered my question.

All the long involved explanations! I find truth if correctly understood can be expressed in plain and reasonably simple ways, and I ask you again,

Do you believe you can live sanctified Right Now through trusting Jesus to make it so for you, right now?

Much love!

 

[marks]

What I am going to say next is probably going to anger you..... The immature in Spirit cannot grasp these things because of their own self delusion, It is like an elder parent trying to discuss life with a teenager who thinks he knows it all. From your perspective, this seems like "Spiritual pride and self righteousness" as the link above speaks of, But truly it is not. It is just a reality of the maturation process, which Paul and the author of Hebrews speaks of (See 1 Corinthians 3:1-5, and Hebrews 5:12-14) and are indicative of the immaturity of this "complacent Christianity".

Do you realize that the greatest part of our disagreement is over whether we are talking about "becoming more sanctified" or "becoming more renewed in the mind"?

But from that you continue to consider yourself so so mature, and me so so immature? And who is the one who sits in judgment of the other?

The tree is known by it's fruit.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Saying they are rich and in need of nothing (Self deception) all the while they are Spiritually poor, naked, blind etc.

Again, another fiction you are persisting in, as if my knowing that I am complete in Christ is the same as the Laodicean saying they are rich and in need of nothing.

I trust in Christ for my life, and He supplies my life to me. That's not self-deception.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What I am going to say next is probably going to anger you.....

I hope this doesn't anger you . . .

You speak of laziness . . . Just Anyone can say, "You just don't understand because you are immature." That's the easy way out.

But it seems Not just anyone can actually understand the assertions of others, and can accurately represent them, even if they disagree. And it may require some effort to understand and give a reasoned response without the assumptions and accusations and projections, without taking a discussion of God's Word and turning it into a personal referendum against the other.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

And do you assume I'm not submitted to God?

You assume that i assume, that is your error.... You are offended by what i say and prove my point over and over again, read 1 Corinthians 3:1-5

Continuing to make such unfounded accusations does not contribute to the discussion. If you have a question, feel free to ask it. I in no wise advocate any sort of spiritual laziness!

That is the response I am hoping fires you up.... read 2 Corinthians 7:8-11. Now prove it to be true like the Corinthian believers did. Or you can continue in your divisive views, the "debate" between Law and grace has been going on for millennia, and it plays right into the hands of Satan himself who fights from two towers, Legalism and lawlessness. To promote this is to promote the division the adversary has planted in the church which keeps it from producing the Unity of the Spirit. I asked you a question at the outset of this you have yet to answer, so i will ask again:
... the Law is not the enemy of Grace. How could we know grace apart from the law?

Then I will answer your question.

 

[marks]

You assume that i assume, that is your error....

It's because you keep saying wrong things of me without any discernable foundation. Only that I disagree with your point of view.

How could we know grace apart from the law?

The Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Romans 4:16 KJV
16) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

We are not all under the Law.

OK.

Do you believe that you can live sanctified NOW, by trusting Jesus for that NOW?

Much love!

 

[marks]

You are offended by what i say

Some of the things you say of me really rise no higher than slander. Such as this supposed "offense". Pardon me for saying so, but it's ignorant slander.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You assume that i assume, that is your error...

Let's apply a little critical reasoning, shall we? Your claim is that I'm not submitted to God, yet you've never met me, you don't know anything about my life, you don't know anyone who knows me, I mean seriously, have much personal knowledge do you have of me? Only what little you've seen on this forum, and, based on your posts, it doesn't seem to me that these have helped you to understand me.

So what exactly is your foundation for the negative personal opinions of me that you feel free to speak out? If not just saying negative things about me because I disagree with something you say?

Much love!

 

[marks]

That is the response I am hoping fires you up.... read 2 Corinthians 7:8-11.

2 Corinthians 2:8-11 KJV
8) Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9) For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10) To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11) Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Yes, let's move forward in love. Not in falsehood.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Now prove it to be true like the Corinthian believers did. Or you can continue in your divisive views, the "debate" between Law and grace has been going on for millennia, and it plays right into the hands of Satan himself who fights from two towers, Legalism and lawlessness. To promote this is to promote the division the adversary has planted in the church which keeps it from producing the Unity of the Spirit. I asked you a question at the outset of this you have yet to answer, so i will ask again:
... the Law is not the enemy of Grace. How could we know grace apart from the law?

The answer to both of this is Christ.

There is no dispute between law and grace. In Christ we have life.

Much love!

 

[dev553344]

-
"Grace"..

This is a word that is used a lot regarding Christians.
Yet, more often then not, its not where they exist spiritually or mentally, or by faith.

Grace, is something that only God gives.
Its supernatural.
Its literally the Love of God as expressed as mercy, redemption, peace, and hope.

Grace is not something that a human being connects with, naturally.
Its foreign to us, as Grace is God ordained. God Created.
What we understand as a reality..... is law.
We understand DOING, and we have a hard time accepting RECEIVING.
The natural mind does not relate to or embrace God's "Grace" naturally.
Our natural mind, is only connected to Law, effort, and performance. = earning.

The natural mind thinks like this...

We do good, we get good.
We do bad, we get bad.

God's Grace is not connect to our doing.
Its only connected to God's mercy and God's Gift.


God's Grace is represented as ..."The prodigal son returned and the Father ran out to meet him, and gave him the BEST".
Did he earn it?
Did he deserve it?
Yet it was the Father's LOVE that only wanted to GIVE and did not require.....

So, Grace, is GOD giving the best to the worst as God's Mercy, or as the NT teaches.>"while we were YET Sinners, Christ died for us".
Not once we stopped.
Not once we lived right for 23 yrs, first.
But "while we were YET sinners" = God's Grace came to meet us at the Cross.
Or as the NT teaches.... "to them that worketh NOT" "but believeth on God who Justifies the UNGODLY".
Notice...."ungodly".
Not the hard worker, or the one doing his or her best.
But God's Grace.....is his eternal mercy invested in the UNGODLY.
Its Christ dying for His ENEMIES.
Its God's Blood shed for the sin of the world.
See that?
God's Grace, which is both God's love and God's mercy, isn't conditional.
God's mercy isn't based on your effort, its based on God's LOVE.

Our natural mind conflicts with the idea that the worst can be given the best, and there is no effort required, =no earning, no performing, just receiving.
Yet, that is How God's Love, exits as GRACE.
It exists ONLY as Mercy, and this mercy is extended to everyone as a GIFT..
"The Gift of Salvation"
"The Gift of RIGHTEOUSNESS".

Grace is God's mercy freely given, no strings attached, no self effort accepted.
Grace is God's Love, and God's Love is unconditional.
Jesus is GOD's Grace.

@Behold I've noticed an unorthodox nature to your threads, so I'm wondering what denomination you are? Also grace is something that is a peace of small movement amounts that anyone can exhibit. God's grace is an attribute associated with healings, resurrection and general command of the elements in small amounts when in fact God commands galaxy creation power. So with grace he can heal and resurrect our tiny natures.

 

[Taken]

Grace of God-

Gods Giving of Blessings;
Deserved, Undeserved, Not bought, Not Earned.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

With the Holy Spirit pored forth in our hearts Christian "Charity" abounds, so hope does not disappoint. so by access by faith restoring in the Sons of God and knowing this we can rejoice in tribulations also, knowing that tribulations works out endurance and enduring is a virtue because of hope that We are brought into harmony in Christ, that we may no longer be slaves to Sin = Born again.
We have become guided by righteousness of Christ unto sanctification in order that we may bring forth good fruit unto God.
The Lord Jesus is my Shepherd. even tho I walk in the valley of darkness I fear not evil; for Christ Jesus is at my side = born again.

The Grace of God is not worldly charity as many presume, that is of mans works.
Jesus said Feed my sheep ? means Spiritual food.

 

[Behold]

@Behold I've noticed an unorthodox nature to your threads,

:What you've noticed is Paul's Doctrine.
If you find this "odd" then check your salvation.

 

[dev553344]

You have an obsession with me.
Did you want me to show you my other Threads on Other sites so that you can chase me there also, and post your cut and paste ideas that you never wrote, never created, and copied from your favored heretic's commentaries?
What?
You want to post MORE of someone else's false theology without """"Quotes""""", and pretend you wrote it, fakir ???
Is that what you just said?
Thought so.

What? Just asked you what church taught you these ideas. I like to know where people come from with different ideas than mine so I can get to know the denominations better.

 

[Behold]

What? Just asked you what church taught you these ideas. I like to know where people come from with different ideas than mine so I can get to know the denominations better.

Its Pauline Theology, Devin.
Go study it, and you'll know exactly what im teaching wherever i go in this world , including on this Forum.