Grailhunter’s Corner
- Thread starter Grailhunter
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HUH?
NT you should have Learned;
Christ IS the Power, Spirit, Wisdom, Seed of God.
Jesus IS the Word, Truth, Life, Maker.
Did you miss...the OT teaching...when God created, SAID and MADE. Gods SPIRIT moved?
How DID God, SAY without His Word?
How DID God, MAKE without His Word?
How DID God, MAKE without His Power?
You are confused. The Names Were Kept Secret From OT Men...
But the Word, the Saying, the Making, the Spirit, the Power of God...
Were ALL there WHILE the Earth was being Established and Before ONE thing was created or made or put upon the Earth.
Is this a response to my example of Albert Einstein's theory of relativity to the time continuum and how that relates to Christ?
As far as....received what they wrote by the revelation given them from the Holy Spirit....I believe this....I also believed they were men...and they did not always get it right....how many times did Christ have to correct them? There connection to Christ and the Holy Spirit is definitely a thing. And and....that revelation from the Holy Spirit continued after the biblical era...The Holy Spirit taught us that slavery was wrong....that polygamy was wrong.....that wedding ceremonies were the thing to do to form a marriage....and that women were equal partners in the church....and it still continues in the Holy Ghost churches....some things we learn slowly.
The carnal mind get a bad rap....but that is the mind that God created.....a mind that could reason....but it only reason the reality that it can perceive and a lot of it is focused on survival, so it is focused on itself....our relationship with God....the Holy Spirit gives a higher and expansive understandings that changes our focus. Love God and love one another. The Spirit of Christ that is our example in all things.
I understand the concept and the belief....I disagree.
Yahweh does not function as a trio on the Old Testament....quite to the contrary Yahweh makes it clear several times that He is the only one and there is no one like Him. And if you called on any other name, you were an enemy of God.
Uh...”straight off you are informed”...God Spoke in reference to Himself as ....”US” and “OUR”.
Gen 1:
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
How many NAMES do you answer to....GRAILHUNTER?
Does EVERYONE you know, call you by the SAME NAMES?
How many TITLES do you have? Mr., Sir, Employer, CEO, Company President, Doctor, Employee, blah, blah, blah.
Does YOUR MINDS thoughts and YOUR HEARTS THOUGHTS always think the same things, want to do the same things?
Does YOUR Mouth speak what your Heart thinks?
Does YOUR Mouth speak what your Mind things?
Are you more powerful than evil spirits?
Are you more powerful than men who sit in government seats?
Man was Created and Made IN THE WHOLE of Gods Likeness...
With a mouth that speaks your own words, a mind that that has thoughts, a heart that has thoughts, with ability to be seated in power over Nations and People....
The THING IS:....God NEVER is in Contention with Himself...His Mind, His Heart, His Power, His Word....IS ALWAYS IN AGREEMENT.
And MAN? Well...that FREEWILL thingy, didn’t take long to kick in and go completely haywire......WITHIN himself....The hearts thought in disagreement with his mind’s thoughts. Lies and deceit drooling out of his mouth in his own words. Runs to and fro believing this, denying that, believing something else, then denying the something else.
For 4 thousand years...man scampering to and fro, up and down, with and without....
AND God has never changed...STILL in complete Agreement WITHIN Himself.
And For 2 thousand years...man was REVEALED step by step HOW TO BECOME ... MADE AGAIN ...
“in Gods Likeness”. BODY, MIND, SOUL, SPIRIT....
1 Thes 5;
[23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Yahweh makes very Clear ONE MAN, has a spirit, a soul, a body, a mind.....EH...SO ALSO DOES GOD HAVE a Spirit, a Soul, A Body, A Mind....
You Chose yourself a NAME for this forum...
God Chose a NAME for His Spirit, His Body, His Word, His Power, His Wisdom, His Seed, His Nation, His People....so what?
And BTW....did you miss the name God Chose for HIS WORD?
Impressive, in that THIS NAME is greater than ALL other NAMES...
Doesn’t it make you wonder WHY?
Phil 2:
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Scripture expressly says “us” and “our”.
You can ignore it, but that does not change the facts.
Well the neat thing about "us" and "our" is that that you can make it into anybody....
Now you and I can throw scriptures at each other and I am prepared to do that....but if you put it in motion, Yahweh did not function as a trio in the Old Testament. To say the least that is exactly not what He did or how He portrayed Himself....always as one and always as only and no one like Him. Not ever talking to another God or acknowledging that another God existed. So clear and repeated by God Himself yet people want to twist it. Even His followers knew there was but one God. That is why Judaism is defined as a monotheistic religion.
As time went on the concept of the One God trinity showed up in Greek mythology. One God having three aspects is a pagan belief. There will be three Gods in the New Testament and they will be united as a Godhead...but not one God with three aspects.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Deuteronomy 4:35
To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him.
Deuteronomy 4:39
Know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.
Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Deuteronomy 32:39
“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
2nd Samuel 7:22
Therefore you are great, O Lord God. For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
1st Chronicles 17:20
There is none like you, O Lord, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
2nd Kings 19:15
And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord and said: “O Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.
Isaiah 37:20
So now, O Lord our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that you alone are the Lord.”
Isaiah 43:10-11
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior.
Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isaiah 44:8
Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
Isaiah 45:5
I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isaiah 45:14
Thus says the Lord: “The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, and the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over to you and be yours; they shall follow you; they shall come over in chains and bow down to you. They will plead with you, saying: ‘Surely God is in you, and there is no other, no god besides him.’”
Isaiah 45:18
For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the Lord, and there is no other.
Isaiah 45:21
Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
Zechariah 14:9
And the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day the Lord will be one and his name one.
Psalms 86:10
For you are great and do wondrous things; you alone are God.
Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?
Nehemiah 9:6
“You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you.
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Disagree.
Gen 1:
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.[4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 2:
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
He created, He made, His Spirit, He said, He divided.
He is His own counselor. His Will, His Desires, His Word, His Spirit, all in Agreement.
Greeks were known for their Philosophies, men picking and choosing a Philosophers outlook, Mythology appealing to some men, and men pretty much tagging a Philosophy as Pagan, if the powers that be influencing a majority wanted that Philosophy rejected.
However, while you accredit the Greeks with the division of THREE gods...What God revealed is much simpler.
God giving His Will, His Word, His Spirit, identifier NAMES, TITLES, DESCRIPTIVE attributes.
(And not surprising, ONE same man, does the exact same things).
Not beside Him....IN Him...IS Him...Comes forth out from Him, Yet remains IN Him, always WITH and WITHIN Him.
Deut 29:
[29] The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Jud 13:
[18] And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?
* Title of Gods Savior revealed, Messiah, Christ, Lord, High Priest, etc.
* Description of Gods Savior revealed, Son, Christ, Power, Wisdom, Seed, etc.
* Name of Gods Savior revealed, Jesus, Word, Maker, Light, Truth, Life, Way, etc.
You can give the Greeks credit or not.
You can give the Jews credit of not.
Personally, I did not begin with an introduction to Greek Philosophers or Greek Mythology. Nor did I begin with an introduction to Jewish History.
My focus was on what I am most familiar with, which is Me.
(My titles, my descriptions, my names, my parts that are individual yet connected one with the other that constitute the Whole.)
And how I personally, am connected to my creator and maker; God Himself.
Yes.
I give my Creator and Maker, the Lord God Almighty, the credit for When and How and Why, He revealed Himself to me.
No.
The Lord God Almighty is not THREE Gods, any more than I myself am THREE Persons.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
First, the reader should know that you reject the Bible’s teaching on the Trinity (or Godhead), and you believe in Tritheism (i.e. a belief in three separate gods - which is polytheism). Second, you believe sex before marriage (fornication) is not a sin (Which is contrary to Scripture). Three, you don’t believe any Bible exists on our planet that is the inerrant and perfect Word of God. You see a Christian as believing in a perfect Bible as idolatry when that is not how idolatry is described in the Bible. Psalms 119:140 says, “Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.” You think the corruptions in Modern Translations are actually more accurate than the KJB (the King James Bible) when in reality we see the changes are for the worse and not for the better.
The reader can see this proof for themselves in my following write up.
Reasons why the KJB is the divine and pure Word of God today:
30 Reasons why the KJV is the Divine and Pure Word of God for Today (Update: KJVO Posters Only)
30 Reasons Why the KJV is the Divine and Pure Word of God for Today: Updated Thread Rule: I created a new thread rule so as to stop the heated discussion and the personal attacks. I know Anti-KJV Only Proponents have already posted here for about 30 pages since the creation of this thread...
www.christianforums.com
Four, you believe in Evolution which is clearly a lie to most discerning Christians and you believe in a local flood and not a global flood. Five, you argued before with me about what sodomy was when most Christians know what that is. Six, you believe in ecumenism (in that you feel that you can fellowship with different denominations that are radically different in theology - like Catholics, etcetera). This means you are a liberal based on how that word is defined in Christianity. Seven, you think the Catholic Church was responsible for adding 1 John 5:7 to the Textus Receptus manuscripts (which is a reading we see in the King James Bible). This is just pure ignorance of Bible history. The Catholic Church never used the Textus Receptus (TR). They were not big on getting their people to read the Bible in the first place. They actually killed even their own people if they had any portion of the Scriptures in their possession. They actually persecuted and killed a man named “William Tyndale” for translating the TR into English. Then when the King James Bible was being translated, Guy Fawkes (a Catholic) tried to stop King James his translation with a super bomb. The King James Bible (based on the TR) has been on the forbidden list of books to read since the 1600’s to the 1900’s. When killing people did not work in getting the Bible out of people’s hands, the Catholic Church changed tactics in creating a New Testament Greek text (Nestle and Aland) in unison with Protestants (based on the corrupted text of Westcott and Hort - who were into Catholicism) and they used the Alexandrian texts (of which the Catholics always favored). Modern Bibles actually have 9 doctrines that support the Catholic Church.
The Modern Bibles have been corrupted by Rome.
You can check out page 21 here of the 14 changes in Modern Bibles that favor the Roman Catholic Church.
http://www.keithpiper.org/storage/books/NIV-Omissions-Cimatu-7July2018-pdf.pdf
Yes, tobacco use is a sin. If you defile the temple of God, he will destroy you (1 Corinthians 3:17).
Tobacco is a means of taking years off your life and leading you to a faster death.
Not a sin unless one has sexual thoughts of which Jesus condemned in Matthew 5:28-30.
This is like painting a broad brushstroke. Sexual pleasure in the bounds of marriage is only acceptable form according to the Bible.
Ditto.
Again, you are painting a broad brush stroke with no context. If one is nude in the shower or if they are nude in the privacy of their own home with their spouse, it is fine. But if one is nude in public, then that is wrong because we are not to do anything to make anyone stumble into sin. Our bodies can cause others to lust after them. Also, the phrase uncover the nakedness of another person is a phrase for sex. So nudity is tied to sex (According to Scripture).
Who even believes this way? Not too many as far as I can tell. But no. This is not a sin (If done in private).
This really should not be the kind of things Christians should talk about openly.
Right. The Bible does not really say.
Yes, in the case of the guilty party (Who cheated), this would be a sin if they divorce to be with another.
I think this is only for the innocent party.
If a woman was unfaithful and she divorces and she remarries she is in sin.
Right, we are not under the Old Covenant but Corinthians talks about how we are to give what God has purposed in our heart to give. That is the new way of giving. So not tithing is no longer a sin. Tithing is Old Covenant and not New Covenant.
1 John 2 says love not the world and neither the things in the world. If any man loves the world the love of the Father is not in them.
This would include secular worldly music that seeks to draw people away from Christ and to follow the world.
I will have to reply to the rest of what you wrote above here at another time.
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First, the reader should know that you reject the Bible’s teaching on the Trinity (or Godhead), and you believe in Tritheism (i.e. a belief in three separate gods - which is polytheism). Second, you believe sex before marriage (fornication) is not a sin (Which is contrary to Scripture). Three, you don’t believe any Bible exists on our planet that is the inerrant and perfect Word of God. You see a Christian as believing in a perfect Bible as idolatry when that is not how idolatry is described in the Bible. Psalms 119:140 says, “Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.” You think the corruptions in Modern Translations are actually more accurate than the KJB (the King James Bible) when in reality we see the changes are for the worse and not for the better.
The reader can see this proof for themselves in my following write up.
Reasons why the KJB is the divine and pure Word of God today:
30 Reasons why the KJV is the Divine and Pure Word of God for Today (Update: KJVO Posters Only)
30 Reasons Why the KJV is the Divine and Pure Word of God for Today: Updated Thread Rule: I created a new thread rule so as to stop the heated discussion and the personal attacks. I know Anti-KJV Only Proponents have already posted here for about 30 pages since the creation of this thread...
Four, you believe in Evolution which is clearly a lie to most discerning Christians and you believe in a local flood and not a global flood. Five, you argued before with me about what sodomy was when most Christians know what that is. Six, you believe in ecumenism (in that you feel that you can fellowship with different denominations that are radically different in theology - like Catholics, etcetera). This means you are a liberal based on how that word is defined in Christianity.
Yes, tobacco use is a sin. If you defile the temple of God, he will destroy you (1 Corinthians 3:17).
Tobacco is a means of taking years off your life and leading you to a faster death.
Not a sin unless one has sexual thoughts of which Jesus condemned in Matthew 5:28-30.
This is like painting a broad brushstroke. Sexual pleasure in the bounds of marriage is only acceptable form according to the Bible.
Ditto.
Again, you are painting a broad brush stroke with no context. If one is nude in the shower or if they are nude in the privacy of their own home with their spouse, it is fine. But if one is nude in public, then that is wrong because we are not to do anything to make anyone stumble into sin. Our bodies can cause others to lust after them. Also, the phrase uncover the nakedness of another person is a phrase for sex. So nudity is tied to sex (According to Scripture).
Who even believes this way? Not too many as far as I can tell. But no. This is not a sin (If done in private).
This really should not be the kind of things Christians should talk about openly.
Right. The Bible does not really say.
Yes, in the case of the guilty party (Who cheated), this would be a sin if they divorce to be with another.
I think this is only for the innocent party.
If a woman was unfaithful and she divorces and she remarries she is in sin.
Right, we are not under the Old Covenant but Corinthians talks about how we are to give what God has purposed in our heart to give. That is the new way of giving. So not tithing is no longer a sin. Tithing is Old Covenant and not New Covenant.
1 John 2 says love not the world and neither the things in the world. If any man loves the world the love of the Father is not in them.
This would include secular worldly music that seeks to draw people away from Christ and to follow the world.
I will have to reply to the rest of what you wrote above here at another time.
Most of what you support are scams and false beliefs. I have explained in details why they are scams and false beliefs, so the reader can decide on their own on that.
Fornication is not a word that appears in the scriptures and it is a deliberate scam.
Beliefs, Truths, and Facts. Freedom of religion....you can believe anything, the sky is the limit.
Truth....biblical truth, you need to find that in the scriptures....in the language that it was written. Too many fingers in the pie to rely on translations, least of all and the worst of all the King James Version. And facts....that you have to dig deep for.
@Bible Highlighter
Actual biblical sins are documented in the Scriptures.....for Christians in the New Testament.
For example you mention tobacco being a sin and of course you know that the word tobacco does not appear in the scriptures so it is impossible for the scripture to indicate that tobacco corrupts anything and beside Christ explained that it is not what you take in your mouth that corrupt you it is what comes out of your mouth that corrupt you.
As far as sex and marriage....you could not be more wrong....
I try to find some humor in it but this topic is so ironic and tragic even. Christianity’s attitude towards sex has caused more harm, sadness, death and evil than all the wars ever fought on this planet! I could easily write a book on this.
But before I get into it, I want to set the record straight…..
You want to have sex without sin???
Respect yourself and your partner.
Do not have sex unless you are in love with the person…..
As far as God is concerned….if you have sex….you are married. Congratulations! Have a good life and a bunch of kids.
Why is this?
Nowhere in the Bible, Old or New Testament is there a requirement for a wedding ceremony to be married. Men took wives and the union was the seal of that marriage … that is a fact. Most Christians of today do not know this.
And back in the day things got twisted. Christianity quickly lost sight of the fact that Satan did not create sex. God created the process of desire that men and women have for each other so that they would come together and make families….the act of sex itself….and procreation…and marriage and God did make it more than a process, He made it feel good with a release of emotions that husband and wife would experience and have to rely on each other for it. For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. Genesis 2:24 What God has made, Christianity has spent centuries demonizing and the result has been a history of horror. Eventually Christianity came up with their own vocabulary to condemn sex and inserted them into their Bibles.
For most of its history Christianity did not require a wedding ceremony. Why is this? Well, it might have been because they did not feel that sex deserved a religious ritual. But also possibly because wedding ceremonies come from Pagan cultures and that is why there are so many Pagan rituals imbedded in our Christian wedding ceremonies and receptions.
So they were not required, the Hebrew language does not even have a word for wed or wedding. But still, after the Gentiles took over the helm of Christianity things were different, we do not know how many chose to have the wedding ceremonies that were customary and unique to their own regions.
All we know historically is that the first documented Christian wedding occurred in the 9th century.
The history of weddings gets quite involved from there…
The Protestants were the first to require wedding ceremonies, around 1550. The Catholic Church which had never been big on love or marriage or women, gave in and followed suite shortly after the Protestants made it a requirement.
The civil requirement for public weddings came much later. The Marriage Duty Act of 1695 put an end to irregular marriages at parochial churches by penalizing clergymen who married couples without a license. Then there was the Clandestine Marriages Act of 1753, long title. "An Act for the Better Preventing of Clandestine Marriages" popularly known as Lord Hardwicke's Marriage Act, was the first statutory legislation in England and Wales to require a formal public ceremony of marriage. This law governed Christian weddings and civil ceremonies. It came into force on March 25th 1754.
Now this is the historical aspect of this….the religious side is that sex is not sinful in itself….not created by the devil….not dirty, nasty, and sinful. People that are in love that make love have not sinned….they are married. People that are married, that have not had a wedding ceremony have not sinned.
Wedding ceremonies are a Christian custom….a very good custom! Christian wedding ceremonies conducted in church are the best…. elaborate weddings ceremonies and receptions are beautiful and great. I love weddings and go to every wedding I am invited to. But still it does not have to happen before sex and still it is a choice.
How did the truth get lost?
Speculation? Some interpreted the New Testament as saying sex was bad and marriage was not the preferred life style. Celibacy was promoted. The belief that Christ and some of the Apostles were not married may have backed this up. Irregardless it was not long before the church made it clear that they believed that sex was dirty, nasty, and sinful and of the devil. Then in a male dominate religion, if sex is dirty, nasty, and sinful and of the devil…the next logical conclusion is that women are the instruments of the devil’s temptation to tempt us good men. Because no matter what, men are going to want sex.
From there on sex is linked to the devil and the devil to women…viola! the witch hunts….unimaginable atrocities at the hands of the Church. Millions of women stripped and tortured and millions murdered by the Church.
Because of this attitude towards sex and women in Christianity, women were never allowed the status of equal members in the congregations of the Lord. Always second rate position in the church and Christians cultures. Millions and millions of women over the centuries treated as something less than real Christians…some thing less than human. And I am not saying the Bible said all this….it is all the perversion of men….Christian leaders.
Most of the Early Church Fathers had nothing good to say about sex, marriage, or sex in marriage, or women in general. And if you want I can quote a lot of it.
Of course now in the 20th and 21st centuries we are working our way out of this, but it is slow going and it is no credit to the church, Catholic or Protestant that women are getting equal rights.
Of course this is a very abbreviated explanation and on the other hand there are many perversions and sexual sins….but they do not involve love and respect.
There are a lot of categories of sexual sins but people have muddled up most of the specifics to the point that the translated Bibles are not accurate. Fornication is not a scriptural word….a man-made word that people inserted into some translations to lump all of the types of sexual sins into one word. Even implying that single people having sex was a sin, when this was the way people formed marriages from the very beginning. Then other translations just refer to them as sexual sins.
The fact is the Greek language has words that define various specific sexual sins and they are in fact in the scriptures….but that was lost in the translations.
So as it is….couples in love, making love is a beautiful thing….created by God and ordained by God….so sex itself is not a sin.
Actual biblical sins are documented in the Scriptures.....for Christians in the New Testament.
For example you mention tobacco being a sin and of course you know that the word tobacco does not appear in the scriptures so it is impossible for the scripture to indicate that tobacco corrupts anything and beside Christ explained that it is not what you take in your mouth that corrupt you it is what comes out of your mouth that corrupt you.
As far as sex and marriage....you could not be more wrong....
I try to find some humor in it but this topic is so ironic and tragic even. Christianity’s attitude towards sex has caused more harm, sadness, death and evil than all the wars ever fought on this planet! I could easily write a book on this.
But before I get into it, I want to set the record straight…..
You want to have sex without sin???
Respect yourself and your partner.
Do not have sex unless you are in love with the person…..
As far as God is concerned….if you have sex….you are married. Congratulations! Have a good life and a bunch of kids.
Why is this?
Nowhere in the Bible, Old or New Testament is there a requirement for a wedding ceremony to be married. Men took wives and the union was the seal of that marriage … that is a fact. Most Christians of today do not know this.
And back in the day things got twisted. Christianity quickly lost sight of the fact that Satan did not create sex. God created the process of desire that men and women have for each other so that they would come together and make families….the act of sex itself….and procreation…and marriage and God did make it more than a process, He made it feel good with a release of emotions that husband and wife would experience and have to rely on each other for it. For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. Genesis 2:24 What God has made, Christianity has spent centuries demonizing and the result has been a history of horror. Eventually Christianity came up with their own vocabulary to condemn sex and inserted them into their Bibles.
For most of its history Christianity did not require a wedding ceremony. Why is this? Well, it might have been because they did not feel that sex deserved a religious ritual. But also possibly because wedding ceremonies come from Pagan cultures and that is why there are so many Pagan rituals imbedded in our Christian wedding ceremonies and receptions.
So they were not required, the Hebrew language does not even have a word for wed or wedding. But still, after the Gentiles took over the helm of Christianity things were different, we do not know how many chose to have the wedding ceremonies that were customary and unique to their own regions.
All we know historically is that the first documented Christian wedding occurred in the 9th century.
The history of weddings gets quite involved from there…
The Protestants were the first to require wedding ceremonies, around 1550. The Catholic Church which had never been big on love or marriage or women, gave in and followed suite shortly after the Protestants made it a requirement.
The civil requirement for public weddings came much later. The Marriage Duty Act of 1695 put an end to irregular marriages at parochial churches by penalizing clergymen who married couples without a license. Then there was the Clandestine Marriages Act of 1753, long title. "An Act for the Better Preventing of Clandestine Marriages" popularly known as Lord Hardwicke's Marriage Act, was the first statutory legislation in England and Wales to require a formal public ceremony of marriage. This law governed Christian weddings and civil ceremonies. It came into force on March 25th 1754.
Now this is the historical aspect of this….the religious side is that sex is not sinful in itself….not created by the devil….not dirty, nasty, and sinful. People that are in love that make love have not sinned….they are married. People that are married, that have not had a wedding ceremony have not sinned.
Wedding ceremonies are a Christian custom….a very good custom! Christian wedding ceremonies conducted in church are the best…. elaborate weddings ceremonies and receptions are beautiful and great. I love weddings and go to every wedding I am invited to. But still it does not have to happen before sex and still it is a choice.
How did the truth get lost?
Speculation? Some interpreted the New Testament as saying sex was bad and marriage was not the preferred life style. Celibacy was promoted. The belief that Christ and some of the Apostles were not married may have backed this up. Irregardless it was not long before the church made it clear that they believed that sex was dirty, nasty, and sinful and of the devil. Then in a male dominate religion, if sex is dirty, nasty, and sinful and of the devil…the next logical conclusion is that women are the instruments of the devil’s temptation to tempt us good men. Because no matter what, men are going to want sex.
From there on sex is linked to the devil and the devil to women…viola! the witch hunts….unimaginable atrocities at the hands of the Church. Millions of women stripped and tortured and millions murdered by the Church.
Because of this attitude towards sex and women in Christianity, women were never allowed the status of equal members in the congregations of the Lord. Always second rate position in the church and Christians cultures. Millions and millions of women over the centuries treated as something less than real Christians…some thing less than human. And I am not saying the Bible said all this….it is all the perversion of men….Christian leaders.
Most of the Early Church Fathers had nothing good to say about sex, marriage, or sex in marriage, or women in general. And if you want I can quote a lot of it.
Of course now in the 20th and 21st centuries we are working our way out of this, but it is slow going and it is no credit to the church, Catholic or Protestant that women are getting equal rights.
Of course this is a very abbreviated explanation and on the other hand there are many perversions and sexual sins….but they do not involve love and respect.
There are a lot of categories of sexual sins but people have muddled up most of the specifics to the point that the translated Bibles are not accurate. Fornication is not a scriptural word….a man-made word that people inserted into some translations to lump all of the types of sexual sins into one word. Even implying that single people having sex was a sin, when this was the way people formed marriages from the very beginning. Then other translations just refer to them as sexual sins.
The fact is the Greek language has words that define various specific sexual sins and they are in fact in the scriptures….but that was lost in the translations.
So as it is….couples in love, making love is a beautiful thing….created by God and ordained by God….so sex itself is not a sin.
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Deuteronomy 22:20-21 says,
“But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.”
The idea here is that she was not automatically married by just having sex (as some falsely teach today). But the important point here (Which condemns your false belief that sex before marriage is not a sin) is that she was condemned for having sex before marriage by being stoned by playing the whore or harlot without being married yet. She was supposed to be a virgin for her wedding day but she wasn’t one, and therefore her fate was to be stoned.
1 Corinthians 7:2 says,
“Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.”
The idea here is that a man could commit fornication if he did not have a wife. The most likely scenario is that he would simply be sleeping around with a woman or other women before marriage. While fornication can include other sexual sins (like bestiality, incest, wild large pagan orgies), this simply was not the most likely scenario of concern. Sex before marriage would be the thing that would be most likely to happen. Thus it was fornication to have sex before marriage.
Then there is John chapter 4.
John 4:16-18
“Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
The idea here is that this woman had multiple husbands and the one she currently was with (intimately or sexually) was not her husband.
You can say that the text was corrupted and added these changes later, but that is simply cheating and your average person would not know of these changes and God simply failed to preserve His Word for people to believe in it. They would have to go to some unbeliever in God’s Word like you or another Textual Critic who doubts God’s Word to get the supposedly more better source (When you don’t even believe in a perfect and inerrant Word of God that exists today). You see it as idolatry to believe in a perfect inerrant Bible (Which is simply dumb because that is how we get our faith). All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
People can look at history and color it to their way of thinking that is wrong.
At the end of the day, people are going to have to answer to whether or not they received the words of Jesus (John 12:48).
For if a person does not receive the words of Jesus, those words will judge them on the last day (John 12:48).
Do you smoke or have family and friends who smoke?
Do you have sex before marriage or do you have family and or friends who have sex before marriage?
Do you see porn and or masterbation as not being sins?
If so… then you are biased to simply coloring the facts of the way you want to see history.
Being biased to your own personal preferences is not a good way to build one’s faith in God’s Word.
One either simply believes the Bible or they don’t believe it.
It takes faith to believe the Bible.
You sir don’t believe the Bible.
You simply have invented your own version of what you want the Bible to be with the other bits lost to the sands of time in history.
This is because you don’t like all of what the Bible says.
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Truth trumps false beliefs......people can look all of this up on their own.
Can you find a discussion in the scriptures about smoking....tobacco? I chew tobacco.
LOL You have to have sex to be married....so there is no sex before marriage. It occurs at the same time. Even today, if you have a wedding ceremony but do not have sex, you can have the marriage annulled. Sex is what consummates the marriage, it has been that way from the very beginning.
I do not have issues with nudity.....I do not feel I am sinning when I take a shower or when a man makes love with his wife, or even if a woman breast feeds a baby. It is all a matter of respect for yourself and others. Porn is not respectful or love, it is more or less prostitution.
The scriptures have no restrictions on masturbation.
It is probably best to stick with the scriptures on all of this.
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Again all you have to do is find a biblical requirement for wedding ceremonies.....and you cannot.
And the woman at the well my not have been faithful to any one man.
And the translations have problems, particularly the King James Version. I say look at the scriptures in their languages. Why are you so scared of people doing that?
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Logic dictates that if there was a writing for divorce (Matthew 5:31), then there would be one for proof of marriage, as well (Just like it is here in our real world today). You are not married according to the state if you do not do so by the applicable laws. Romans 13:1-2 talks about obeying the laws of the land (Which would obviously be if they don’t conflict with God’s laws).
Romans 13:7 says, “Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.”
Jesus attended an actual wedding event, as well (Showing that there was a custom gathering like we do in our present day world).
But again… reading Deuteronomy 20:22 means that the woman was not married by sex and she had to do something else (like marrying by law in an official ceremony) to make it official. Her just sleeping around did not make her married but it simply made her an harlot.
It says she had five husbands and the one she was with (i.e. intimately with or a sexual partner) was not her husband.
Why? Because she did not officially get married according to the Law of the land with the man she currently was with and yet she was being intimate with him. Yet, she had five other husbands before him. So you appear to just not believe the Bible. This is not different than what atheists do. They think the Bible is made up. You are just giving another excuse and saying the text was corrupted or it does not mean what it says plainly. You are simply in unbelief in many parts of the Bible. You have a Burger King Bible in that you want to have it your way, and you don’t have a HOLY Bible that is perfect and divine like I do. Good luck in following your own heart and mind instead of the Bible Alone. The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. So if you go off your own thinking over what the Bible says… you are simply deceiving your ownself.
This is simply a position of unbelief. So if there is no perfect Bible then YOU become the authority and not God’s Holy Word. YOU make the Bible say whatever you would like it to say when it is convenient to your way of thinking. The problem is that you cannot change Bible history and you cannot change what the Bible says. You don’t even realize the KJB is divine and I can even prove that to you with biblical numerics. But I am sure you will not be open to that because you are a liberal, and most liberals hate the King James Bible. Granted, I use other translations to help update some of the archaic words in the KJB, but I make the KJB my final word of authority. You don’t have any authority but yourself. You have a butchered up bible you created in your own mind to fit your beliefs and it also plays second fiddle In your life. You don’t believe a person can be changed by the Bible. There is no power in the Word of God for you. But the Scriptures say that God’s Word is like a hammer and it is like fire. You don’t believe that. While you may not be an atheist and or an agnostic, you approach the Bible in a similar way that the agnostic or atheist does when they approach the Bible (Which is with unbelief). Yes, You only believe in certain parts of the Bible that are easy to believe in but they don’t require you to change your life for God in a radical way that He requires. You need to first believe the Bible before it can change your heart. So far… it has not really done that for you (Because you have not allowed it to do so).
You are asserting a lot that is not in the scriptures. And the laws of the land include a common law marriage.
You are going along with all the men through history that had their own beliefs and wanted to conform Christianity with false theological words and false doctrines. I am not saying you are a horrible man....but you are standing with the historical proud crowd that has deceived Christianity.
As Christians we are expected to keep sin to a minimum in our lives. In order to do that we have to know what sin is. The scriptures do a good job of letting us know what sin is. But as it is today, those sins get lost in the long list of man-made sins. Man and it was mostly men.....not women....deceived Christianity by coming up their own list of sins and corrupting the scriptures through translations. They had no such authority to do that, not to mention all the deceptions and all of that is a lot of great sins in itself.
The details of her relationships are not in those scriptures and there are no laws of the land at that time for marriage. Much less a women having 5 husbands. You are using confusion to try to come up with a religious belief.
Misrepresenting what people say is what deceivers do on this forum. I never said I am the authority. I tell people to go back to the scriptures and look at them in their native tongue. In fact I do not care if people believe me, I want them to care enough to look it up themselves.
The readers can see what is going on here. I say people need to look it up but you want people to believe you.
And no, there is no perfect Bible.....but some are a lot closer than others.
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Sorry. Unless most people are liberal in their view of God's Word like you, then they are not going to accept dumb things like fornication is not sex before marriage. You are in grave error, and I shown you by the Scriptures that you are wrong. You just don't agree with the Bible in what it says. You also don't know Bible history, either. You have some odd colored view of history that is simply not true. Basic Bible history supports me here. Comparing the KJB vs. Modern bibles also supports me, as well. For the changes in Modern bibles are for the worse at times and not for the better (When it comes to doctrine, and morality, etc.). Also, most of all your Modern bibles use the Alexandrian texts that the Catholics favor. In fact, all Modern bibles are based on the Nestle and Aland text (Which was supervised by the Vatican). So the very people you say corrupted the Textus Receptus actually corrupted most Bibles today. In fact, it was the Catholics goal to get you to doubt the Bible because they always had a low view of holding to its authority. The Catholic church always placed tradition and or the church above the Word of God.
I am not liberal, that is why I do not put with these lies. Fake words of God. And I do agree with the scriptures, just not men that lie about the Word of God.
Why does it seem so strange to you that a religion should have true beliefs....not something that men have made up?
If we are not suppose to sin, why does it seem so strange to you that it would be good to know what biblical sins are?
Why have a religion full of false beliefs and lies?
These man-made sins turn people away from Christianity and give others false ammunition to accuse others with.
Christ said my yoke is easy and my burden is light and the truth will set you free.
Fake sins are made to be like what the Jews did and put the burden on believers.
Better to stick with the scriptures.
Johnny Appleseed of truth.....be good and do good.
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