Hard Truth For Non Tongue Speakers

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Nancy

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can you Quote this? Seems intuitive, huh?
But earlier weren't you using the term "believers" to mean "disciples?"
again, i understand what you meant, but see my point if you will.
Jesus never commanded anyone to make disciples of other believers
wadr

Funny. There are folks that believe this. I have been asked to "disciple" some of the younger women/girls at my Church. I'm like, thinking in my mind...are not these ladies already disciples of Christ?? I CAN understand taking a babe under your wing but, not to disciple...which has connotations toward the word discipline. We are taught or trained by the Master! Since ours is a personal relationship with Jesus, and God disciplines because He loves us. I always that, once you become saved, then the discipleship starts...IMO through Jesus. And, we grow according to our faith... IMHO :D
 
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bbyrd009

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Funny. There are folks that believe this. I have been asked to "disciple" some of the younger women/girls at my Church. I'm like, thinking in my mind...are not these ladies already disciples of Christ?? I CAN understand taking a babe under your wing but, not to disciple...which has connotations toward the word discipline. We are taught or trained by the Master! Since ours is a personal relationship with Jesus, and God disciplines because He loves us. I always that, once you become saved, then the discipleship starts...IMO through Jesus. And, we grow according to our faith... IMHO :D
"listen to them, and give them a king."
 
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JesusIsFaithful

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Guess we got the speaking in tongues thing pretty well nailed down herenow though huh :)

Only God can cause the increase, but yes, He has provided scripture for me to present that the Holy Spirit does not need tongues to offer His unspoken intercessions when Jesus knows the mind of the Spirit to give His intercessions to the Father. This same Jesus that searches our hearts and thus coupled with the Spirit's unspoken intercessions as well as the Son's own intercessions, is why the Father knows "everything" before we ask anything in prayer.

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

I can only hope that those who acknowledge this truth may share that truth with other forums on the internet. May the Lord raise up workers for the harvest in keeping babes in Christ from going after those that have gone astray by seducing spirits and that God is even peradventuring to recover some from this snare of the devil before the Bridegroom comes.
 

bbyrd009

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Only God can cause the increase, but yes, He has provided scripture for me to present that the Holy Spirit does not need tongues to offer His unspoken intercessions when Jesus knows the mind of the Spirit to give His intercessions to the Father.
we aren't really even having a convo, are we
 
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Truth

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Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV

If you agree that the above verses is for each and every believer, then you have to agree that the Holy Spirit is not using tongues for uttering His own intercessions when He cannot even utter His own groanings.

You cannot agree that the Spirit is praying in tongues regardless of how tongue speakers testify to how the Spirit will urge them to pray for someone in tongues, because what about you? The stigma is that " if " the Spirit is using tongues as being necessary to utter His own intercessions for the tongue speakers, how does that not make you look out in the cold from the Holy Spirit?

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. KJV

If Jesus testified that the Father knows before we ask Him, then why should we believe that supposedly the Holy Spirit has to use tongues to make the Father know what we are going through?

Does God love the non-tongue speakers or not? Yes, He does. Then what tongue speakers are sharing in how the Spirit in them pray in tongues is an act that denies God's love towards us all.

Does God show partiality? Then neither should tongue speakers that pray in tongues say so by their actions and testimony about praying in tongues. They are the ones that separate themselves from the body of Christ by claiming to have another drink of the One Spirit by how they got that tongue which comes with no interpretation which is why I say it is not of Him at all.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

They have failed to test the spirits, and it is no wonder why some tongue speakers will go further for another drink of the One Spirit for other signs of confusion in the flesh.

So do not feel left out, non-tongue speakers, because most tongue speakers today do not have the actual God's gift of tongues which was prophesied for speaking unto the people; not for ALSO speaking back to God. That would be confusing which God is not the author of.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.....32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

I personally have never spoken in tongues, But after fasting for my pastor, for his teaching in a different Church, I got down to Pray just before He began to teach, and as I was praying, I began to groan and moan, I had no clue what was going on! I have always felt Infer-er because I have not been a recipient of the gift of tongues! yet I have experienced that of the Spirit, which doesn't use any form of words or Language!
Thank You, maybe there is some resolve from your post that I can take comfort that maybe I am not Infer-er!
 

Helen

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I personally have never spoken in tongues, But after fasting for my pastor, for his teaching in a different Church, I got down to Pray just before He began to teach, and as I was praying, I began to groan and moan, I had no clue what was going on! I have always felt Infer-er because I have not been a recipient of the gift of tongues! yet I have experienced that of the Spirit, which doesn't use any form of words or Language!
Thank You, maybe there is some resolve from your post that I can take comfort that maybe I am not Infer-er!

Amen. Not everyone understands Intersession...but that is what it is.
The Holy Spirit praying/groaning through you.

A good book to read is an old book called "Reece Howels Intercessor"..
Wow it is quite something. Read it back in the 60's
Long before our time, obviously..he was a Welshman.

It impacted me ..
Here is the PDF
http://www.theforgewales.org.uk/cms/tmp/forge/rees-howells-intercessor-ebook.pdf
 
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Helen

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@Truth Oh I forgot why I wrote that post LOL

I was going to say...I am sure that no where in the book ( his life) is Tongues even mentioned. But just a read of a couple of chapters ...and it is plain obvious that the Holy Spirit had total hold of his life...and mightily moved through him.

( I never have believed that tongues is proof of the power of God in a person life)
 

JesusIsFaithful

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we aren't really even having a convo, are we

We are in one sense, but only He can minister. I could share the same truth to someone else, but He is not causing the increase even though I am having a conversation with the individual, but yet one never knows that may be sometime down the road, that seed planted and gets watered by someone else will have God causing the increase then..
 

JesusIsFaithful

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I personally have never spoken in tongues, But after fasting for my pastor, for his teaching in a different Church, I got down to Pray just before He began to teach, and as I was praying, I began to groan and moan, I had no clue what was going on!

In other words, you were being in confusion, right, as in, not having a clue of what was going on. You should discern the spirit then and not automatically assume that was the Holy Spirit.

I have always felt Infer-er because I have not been a recipient of the gift of tongues! yet I have experienced that of the Spirit, which doesn't use any form of words or Language!
Thank You, maybe there is some resolve from your post that I can take comfort that maybe I am not Infer-er!

Please reread this reference below from the OP...

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV

The King James Version is the one that testifies that even His groanings cannot be uttered; hence no sound at all. That is where verse 27 comes in where the Son that searches our hearts is the One that knows the mind of the Spirit to give the Spirit's unspoken intercessions for us to the Father.

So there is no praying in tongues of any sort, because the Holy Spirit can not utter His own intercessions for why Another has to know the mind of the Spirit to give His unspoken intercessions to the Father.

A lot of believers today will experience even more than what you had, to believe they were actually speaking another language but it is just gibberish nonsense.

The point is... you were never inferior even before that moment when you had experienced moaning and groaning. The Holy Spirit does not need to utter His moanings & groanings or any sounds at all because He can't speak for Himself in uttering His own intercessions when He can only speak what He hears.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

That is why Romans 8:27 exists to show how His unspoken intercessions is given to God the Father & that is by the Son knowing the mind of the Spirit.

So any believer who is being overwhelmed out there by the cares of this life, and you are at your wits end to know what to pray for, we can rest in Jesus Christ that He knows the mind of the Spirit as well as being able to search our hearts so that the Father knows when we even fail to pray at all.

So don't take stock in that experience. It cannot be of Him and scripture reproves it as such.

Take stock that the Holy Spirit has been and still is making unspoken and unutterable intercessions for you that the Son knowing the mind of the Spirit as well as in searching our hearts is why the Father knows before we, ourselves, ask anything in prayer.
 
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Truth

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Amen. Not everyone understands Intersession...but that is what it is.
The Holy Spirit praying/groaning through you.

A good book to read is an old book called "Reece Howels Intercessor"..
Wow it is quite something. Read it back in the 60's
Long before our time, obviously..he was a Welshman.

It impacted me ..
Here is the PDF
http://www.theforgewales.org.uk/cms/tmp/forge/rees-howells-intercessor-ebook.pdf
Amen. Not everyone understands Intersession...but that is what it is.
The Holy Spirit praying/groaning through you.

A good book to read is an old book called "Reece Howels Intercessor"..
Wow it is quite something. Read it back in the 60's
Long before our time, obviously..he was a Welshman.

It impacted me ..
Here is the PDF
http://www.theforgewales.org.uk/cms/tmp/forge/rees-howells-intercessor-ebook.pdf

Thank You ByGrace, I read your 2nd post first, and was kinda lost, but your first post made it clear, I went to the site, and have written down the site for later reference,Thanks Again!
 
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Truth

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In other words, you were being in confusion, right, as in, not having a clue of what was going on. You should discern the spirit then and not automatically assume that was the Holy Spirit.



Please reread this reference below from the OP...

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV

The King James Version is the one that testifies that even His groanings cannot be uttered; hence no sound at all. That is where verse 27 comes in where the Son that searches our hearts is the One that knows the mind of the Spirit to give the Spirit's unspoken intercessions for us to the Father.

So there is no praying in tongues of any sort, because the Holy Spirit can not utter His own intercessions for why Another has to know the mind of the Spirit to give His unspoken intercessions to the Father.

A lot of believers today will experience even more than what you had, to believe they were actually speaking another language but it is just gibberish nonsense.

The point is... you were never inferior even before that moment when you had experienced moaning and groaning. The Holy Spirit does not need to utter His moanings & groanings or any sounds at all because He can't speak for Himself in uttering His own intercessions when He can only speak what He hears.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

That is why Romans 8:27 exists to show how His unspoken intercessions is given to God the Father & that is by the Son knowing the mind of the Spirit.

So any believer who is being overwhelmed out there by the cares of this life, and you are at your wits end to know what to pray for, we can rest in Jesus Christ that He knows the mind of the Spirit as well as being able to search our hearts so that the Father knows when we even fail to pray at all.

So don't take stock in that experience. It cannot be of Him and scripture reproves it as such.

Take stock that the Holy Spirit has been and still is making unspoken and unutterable intercessions for you that the Son knowing the mind of the Spirit as well as in searching our hearts is why the Father knows before we, ourselves, ask anything in prayer.

So are you saying that what I experienced was not of God, Savior,or Spirit? that it was of no avail, that it was just me!
 

JesusIsFaithful

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Amen. Not everyone understands Intersession...but that is what it is.
The Holy Spirit praying/groaning through you.

I understand that other Bible versions would change the meaning of His words from the way the KJV has it, but it is a wrong translation and a lie that it is giving in that Bible version.

Since no lie can be of the truth, then scripture cannot go against scripture. To test this; compare KJV with the NIV of John 16:13 & Romans 8:26-27.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. KJV

Now if you doubt what John 16:13 says above in how the Holy Spirit can ONLY speak what He hears... see the NIV.

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. NIV

I did not need the NIV to get the meaning of His words in John 16:13 in the KJV, but maybe you do. Anyway.. the truth is the Holy Spirit CANNOT speak for Himself and that means uttering His own intercessions. In Romans 8:26-27, the KJV maintains that truth whereas the NIV does not.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV

The phrase "groanings which cannot be uttered" means literally no sound at all in keeping with the truth in John 16:13 in the KJV.

But the NIV does not keep Romans 8:26-27 with the truth in John 16:13.

Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

So I understand why you and Truth would be led astray by errant modern Bible version in suggesting otherwise as if Jesus did not really say that in John 16:13 or meant that at all, but if we continue reading, we can see anther error; a grammatical error.

Ask yourself how can the "he" that searches our hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit... be the Spirit? That is a grammatical error if there ever was one. We can know that the "he" is referring to the Son, Jesus Christ, as the Word of God that searches our hearts as confirmed in Hebrews 4:12-16.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

As for according to the will of God, only Jesus is at that throne of grace to give the Father our intercessions, the Spirit's unspoken intercessions, and the Son's own intercessions to the Father so that whenever the Father says "yes" to any of those intercessions, the Son answers the prayer.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

That is why the Holy Spirit cannot give His own unspoken intercessions for us to the Father Himself because Jesus is the only Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus at that throne of grace as He alone has to give all intercessions to the Father because it is the Son that answers prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers and receive genuine thanks in Jesus's name.

That is why God wants us to pray; He does not need the Holy Spirit to use tongues to give His unspoken intercessions for us because this blessing is to ALL believers for why the Father knows before we ask anything in prayer, thanks to Jesus Christ, our only Mediator between God and men.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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So are you saying that what I experienced was not of God, Savior,or Spirit? that it was of no avail, that it was just me!

No. It was not "just you". The encounter was real, but His words says that was not the Holy Spirit at all.

You and other believers that do not pray in tongues should know from the scripture provided that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His own groanings as the KJV states. That is why the apostle John warned believers to not believe every spirit, but test the spirits.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

So don't look to that one moment of moaning and groaning as if that was the Holy Spirit and that was the only time He has made His intercessions, even if that should happen again, because the Holy Spirit has been making unspoken and unutterable intercessions for you since you had been saved.

So do not look for that to happen again because you do not need to even experience a supernatural moaning and groaning as a sign that the Holy Spirit is making intercessions for you or for someone else through you. You should take Jesus at His words that He cannot utter His own intercessions for us in John 16:13 for why Jesus that searches our hearts has to know the mind of the Spirit for His unspoken intercessions to be made known to the Father.

Just shun it and pray normally, resting in His words that the Holy Spirit has been and still is making intercessions for you without any sound at all since you had been saved by faith in Jesus Christ.
 
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Helen

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Thank You ByGrace, I read your 2nd post first, and was kinda lost, but your first post made it clear, I went to the site, and have written down the site for later reference,Thanks Again!

I am about 98% sure that Reece Howells did not ever speak in tongues.
I do NOT believe that your experience was not the Holy Spirit at all.
Yes it was, for sure.

"My sheep know My voice..." and you even had the inner witness confirming it. :)
Don't get thrown by 'other voices'.

But, that is your choice...obviously. Choose you this day whom you believe.lol

Bless you...H
 
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JesusIsFaithful

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I am about 98% sure that Reece Howells did not ever speak in tongues.
I do NOT believe that your experience was not the Holy Spirit at all.
Yes it was, for sure.

"My sheep know My voice..." and you even had the inner witness confirming it. :)
Don't get thrown by 'other voices'.

But, that is your choice...obviously. Choose you this day whom you believe.lol

Bless you...H

Do pray to Jesus without tongues to reconsider because you are denying His Word that the Holy Spirit is making unutterable intercessions for each and every believer without any sound at all as He cannot speak for Himself, but can only speak what He hears, thus He cannot use tongues to utter His own intercessions.

If we start validating "signs", then you are sowing doubts to all believers that never had tongues nor supernatural moanings and groanings that they ever have the Holy Spirit at all. This is what happens when you believe every spirit without testing them; it departs from the faith that Jesus Christ is in us.

Do we not reprove false teachings by the scripture? Do we ignore His words because it does not fit what we like in our supernatural experiences?

Yes, His sheep know His voice and follow Him because they understand His words to follow Him by; a stranger's voice, they will not follow and tongues without interpretation or supernatural moanings and groanings is hardly instructive in following His voice but a stranger's voice for you know not the meaning of the voice.

So choose this day Whom you will believe ... His understood words telling you that is not the Holy Spirit praying and groaning out loud, or you don't believe Him for why you are following a stranger's voice.
 

Helen

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Do pray to Jesus without tongues to reconsider because you are denying His Word that the Holy Spirit is making unutterable intercessions for each and every believer without any sound at all as He cannot speak for Himself, but can only speak what He hears, thus He cannot use tongues to utter His own intercessions.

If we start validating "signs", then you are sowing doubts to all believers that never had tongues nor supernatural moanings and groanings that they ever have the Holy Spirit at all. This is what happens when you believe every spirit without testing them; it departs from the faith that Jesus Christ is in us.

Do we not reprove false teachings by the scripture? Do we ignore His words because it does not fit what we like in our supernatural experiences?

Yes, His sheep know His voice and follow Him because they understand His words to follow Him by; a stranger's voice, they will not follow and tongues without interpretation or supernatural moanings and groanings is hardly instructive in following His voice but a stranger's voice for you know not the meaning of the voice.

So choose this day Whom you will believe ... His understood words telling you that is not the Holy Spirit praying and groaning out loud, or you don't believe Him for why you are following a stranger's voice.


I don't understand...I was saying that Reece Howells the Intercessor did not speak in tongues in his intersessions.

Read the PDF thread I sent to Truth.
You write so many good posts ...yet on this one subject, so seem obsessed by it. Who cares if you speak in tongues or not?
It doesn't make anyone any more or less spiritual.

I still don't understand why this is such a BIG issue in your life.

So, you don't agree with it...then okay...just leave it!
Get on with something that you do believe in...no biggy.

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
It is not a beach to die on...let it go...enjoy your day...
 
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Truth

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No. It was not "just you". The encounter was real, but His words says that was not the Holy Spirit at all.

You and other believers that do not pray in tongues should know from the scripture provided that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His own groanings as the KJV states. That is why the apostle John warned believers to not believe every spirit, but test the spirits.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

So don't look to that one moment of moaning and groaning as if that was the Holy Spirit and that was the only time He has made His intercessions, even if that should happen again, because the Holy Spirit has been making unspoken and unutterable intercessions for you since you had been saved.

So do not look for that to happen again because you do not need to even experience a supernatural moaning and groaning as a sign that the Holy Spirit is making intercessions for you or for someone else through you. You should take Jesus at His words that He cannot utter His own intercessions for us in John 16:13 for why Jesus that searches our hearts has to know the mind of the Spirit for His unspoken intercessions to be made known to the Father.

Just shun it and pray normally, resting in His words that the Holy Spirit has been and still is making intercessions for you without any sound at all since you had been saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

Well I am always unsure of many things, as I stated on a different thread, I do sometimes think that I do not measure up! and at first, when I read your response, I was not sure how to take what you said, But with this response I do have a Clearer Understanding, which is to me a relief. Thank You for your own understanding, in this matter. there are others that try to make a point, with way to many words, and people like myself, with maybe lesser education, it sometimes goes over our heads. Thanks Again!
 
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JesusIsFaithful

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I don't understand...I was saying that Reece Howells the Intercessor did not speak in tongues in his intersessions.

You were agreeing with Truth about his testimony how what he had beleived was the Holy Spirit that manifested moaning and groaning in praying through him. I was not really referring to Reece Howell, but your reply to Truth.

Read the PDF thread I sent to Truth.
You write so many good posts ...yet on this one subject, so seem obsessed by it. Who cares if you speak in tongues or not?
It doesn't make anyone any more or less spiritual.

I still don't understand why this is such a BIG issue in your life.

So, you don't agree with it...then okay...just leave it!
Get on with something that you do believe in...no biggy.

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
It is not a beach to die on...let it go...enjoy your day...

The big deal is what is not being said is what non-tongue speakers cannot avoid to think and that is why the Holy Spirit isn't making any intercessions for them? That leads into doubting they have the Holy Spirit. That leads to seeking to receive the Holy Spirit after a sign of tongues.

The hard truth is that the Holy Spirit cannot make any sound at all in giving His own intercessions for us because He can only speak what He hears. That is why God's gift of tongues is only for speaking unto the people and His making silent intercessions for all believers is something we can rest in Jesus Christ for that we had been filled and thus saved at the calling of the gospel when we had first believed.