Hard Truth For Non Tongue Speakers

[Helen]

You were agreeing with Truth about his testimony how what he had beleived was the Holy Spirit that manifested moaning and groaning in praying through him. I was not really referring to Reece Howell, but your reply to Truth.



The big deal is what is not being said is what non-tongue speakers cannot avoid to think and that is why the Holy Spirit isn't making any intercessions for them? That leads into doubting they have the Holy Spirit. That leads to seeking to receive the Holy Spirit after a sign of tongues.

The hard truth is that the Holy Spirit cannot make any sound at all in giving His own intercessions for us because He can only speak what He hears. That is why God's gift of tongues is only for speaking unto the people and His making silent intercessions for all believers is something we can rest in Jesus Christ for that we had been filled and thus saved at the calling of the gospel when we had first believed.

I think that you are confused ...and you sure are confusing me..

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I think that you are confused ...and you sure are confusing me..

If you really believe that the Holy Spirit in each believer is making intercessions for that believer, then He doesn't need tongues to pray in.

Otherwise, you are saying that the Holy Spirit needs tongues or moanings and groanings in uttering His intercessions for each believer. That is not true.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

If we all acknowledge how we speak for the Lord to others....

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

So it is not we who speak but the Spirit... and yet it is not the words of the Spirit's that is being spoken, but the Father's.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jesus has testified and has declared that the Spirit cannot speak for Himself in uttering His own words let alone His own intercessions.

Now that Christ has ascended, all power has been given unto Him as the words of the Father's are now His as He guides us as our Good Shepherd through the Holy Spirit in us.

John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth....20....... and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Our reconciled relationship with God is THROUGH the Bridegroom. The Holy Spirit will give the words from the Bridegroom, but our response as the bride is back to the Bridegroom; not back to the Holy Spirit as if the Spirit is the Bridegroom nor back from the Holy Spirit as if the Holy Spirit is the bride.

Therefore, when we are prompted to pray, it is not to pray in tongues as if the Holy Spirit needs tongues to utter His intercessions. It is for us to pray so that when we know what we had prayed for and that prayer gets answered, we can give the Father genuine heartfelt thanks in Jesus's name. That counts more in God's eyes than a believer thinking he is praying or giving thanks in tongues, but he knows it not.

 

[Helen]

I agree....The Holy Spirit doesn't "Need" anything or any one....But God chose and destined it that way.
It is called co-working...which is God choice to do with us.
Jesus called the Holy Spirit The Comforter the Helper...etc.

Bless your heart, your relationship , experience and interaction with the Holy Spirit ( that is God moving in His Power and Presence in our lives ) must be very dwarfed, insignificant and of non effect in your life. That is sad to say the least.

But God bless you anyway.
See you on the other side....
Take care...Helen

 

[Triumph1300]

So while some tongue speakers are upset over non-tongue speakers raining on their parades.....

As a "tongue speaker",(your definition), why should I be upset when you are "raining" on my parade?
I could not care less what you think about speaking in tongues. Why would I.

If anything I wished you also would receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

I have seen these "tongue" discussions for a long time on Christian internet forums.
It serves no purpose.
Some anti tongue christians go from forum to forum grieving the Holy Spirit.

I have seen many of them posting on different forums under different names,
but one can easily recognize these posters by their "style of writing".
Always the same bunch with a chip on their shoulders.

The non tongue speakers would be better of to start acting in unity with the tongue speakers.

I might be out of Wifi again in the next 24 hours.

 

[amadeus]

@JesusIsFaithful
If you want to respond to my response, please do so, but don't add me to pre-labeled people you continue to mention in your conclusions drawn here about other people as if we were all the same:

There are lots of people in the world we call planet Earth and everyone of them has been given gifts from God but the gifts are not always the same gifts for each person born to a woman. Similarly when people come to believe in God they may be given special gifts related to that belief. Because not everyone gets the same gifts or even the same measure of a gift received as someone else, does that make God a respecter of persons? No, the answers needed to understand the differences are, as I understand it, to the questions:, Why has God given any kind of gifts to anyone? Why did God create men at all?

Do some misunderstand or misuse some of the things which God has given them? Certainly, but if we simply strive toward doing everything in the manner that God intended, "very good", should it not then all end up for us "very good"? I would think so. We do not need to understand everything that everyone else is or is not doing to please God, do we? If our heart is right and we follow it, will not God lead us the right way?

Again if you have questions about what I have posted, ask them, but please do not make assumptions or draw conclusions about my walk with God without knowledge.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I agree....The Holy Spirit doesn't "Need" anything or any one....But God chose and destined it that way.

Then you are pretty much telling every non-tongue speaker to doubt having the Holy Spirit at all because He is not praying in tongues to make intercessions for them when God has chose and destined tongues that way.

You can't have it both ways, beloved sister. You can't agree to ease the worries of non-tongue speakers and then emphasize why God has chosen it necessary and had destined tongues to be used for in that way.

It is called co-working...which is God choice to do with us.
Jesus called the Holy Spirit The Comforter the Helper...etc.

You are now linking praying in tongues as part of that co working with God which now every non tongue speaking believer is going to worry about having the Holy Spirit or not or to even be in the ministry at all.

Bless your heart, your relationship , experience and interaction with the Holy Spirit ( that is God moving in His Power and Presence in our lives ) must be very dwarfed, insignificant and of non effect in your life. That is sad to say the least.

But God bless you anyway.
See you on the other side....
Take care...Helen

How are we witnesses of Him? By praying in tongues without interpretation or by declaring our faith in Jesus Christ in words understood by others?

Then praying in tongues or speaking in tongues without interpretation is a poor witness as it shows God is partial among the body of believers and loves some more than others, if at all. That is why God's gift of tongues is to profit the body withal by coming with interpretation and thus proving it is NOT for private use.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

As a "tongue speaker",(your definition), why should I be upset when you are "raining" on my parade?
I could not care less what you think about speaking in tongues. Why would I.

I did say some, not all.

If anything I wished you also would receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Already received as promised at the calling of the gospel when I had first believed and this was done by faith in Jesus Christ not by the sign of tongues.

I have seen these "tongue" discussions for a long time on Christian internet forums.
It serves no purpose.
Some anti tongue christians go from forum to forum grieving the Holy Spirit.

The problem is you will not see how you grieve non tongue speaking believers as if they had not the baptism of the Holy Spirit and thus not saved. You may not sat that as direct as that, but that is the inevitable conclusion for believers that do not speak in tongues to draw from.

I have seen many of them posting on different forums under different names,
but one can easily recognize these posters by their "style of writing".
Always the same bunch with a chip on their shoulders.

Well, how would you react if I say to you.. I sure wish you too would have the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Is that not insinuating you don't have Him? Yes, it does.

The non tongue speakers would be better of to start acting in unity with the tongue speakers.

I might be out of Wifi again in the next 24 hours.

The difference between you and me is that I am telling you had the promise of the Holy Spirit, that born again of the Spirit, that moment of receiving eternal salvation when you had first believed at the calling of the gospel and this OTHER calling you are giving for believers to seek after by a sign of tongues is NOT AFTER the calling of the gospel. You are the one dividing yourselves from the believers that heeded the only calling given to us. You are the one denying the promise given to us at our salvation by faith in Jesus Christ at the calling of the gospel.

You guys are in error; and you defend not the faith in Jesus Christ & are departing from faith to give heed to those seducing spirits & doctrines of devils just to receive them by the sign of tongues which never comes with interpretation because it was and never will be God's actual gift of tongues.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

@JesusIsFaithful
If you want to respond to my response, please do so, but don't add me to pre-labeled people you continue to mention in your conclusions drawn here about other people as if we were all the same:

I did say some tongue speakers say those things and not all.

There are lots of people in the world we call planet Earth and everyone of them has been given gifts from God but the gifts are not always the same gifts for each person born to a woman. Similarly when people come to believe in God they may be given special gifts related to that belief. Because not everyone gets the same gifts or even the same measure of a gift received as someone else, does that make God a respecter of persons? No, the answers needed to understand the differences are, as I understand it, to the questions:, Why has God given any kind of gifts to anyone? Why did God create men at all?

1 Corinthians 12:7 says what the manifestations of the Spirit was for.. to profit the body withal; not individually.

1 Corinthians 12:13 testify to one baptism that we, the believers, all had the one drink of that One Spirit at our salvation as that verse was signifying that the gifts are not obtained by seeking a baptism of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation.

1 Corinthians 12:25 says there should be no schism in the body.

1 Corinthians 12:19-21 testify against tongues for private use as rebuking all those supposed benefits for tongues for private use because that is essentially saying that tongue speakers have no need of any one else for the use of tongues without interpretation.

Do some misunderstand or misuse some of the things which God has given them? Certainly, but if we simply strive toward doing everything in the manner that God intended, "very good", should it not then all end up for us "very good"? I would think so. We do not need to understand everything that everyone else is or is not doing to please God, do we? If our heart is right and we follow it, will not God lead us the right way?

The right way is Jesus Christ is the gospel and we are to be preaching Him since we had been saved, but some tongue speakers are giving another calling to seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by a sign of tongues and some tongue speakers even suggest that believers do not have the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet to seek to receive Him by that sign of tongues.

And yet tongues were never to serve as a sign or proof towards the believers about anything. 1 Corinthians 14:22

Again if you have questions about what I have posted, ask them, but please do not make assumptions or draw conclusions about my walk with God without knowledge.

If you defend praying in tongues, then you need His truth from His words in why that is not of Him at all.

If you cannot understand the good fight in defending the faith nor keeping the tradition taught of us that the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth was received at the calling of the gospel, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15, then you need to shun praying in tongues to pray normally at that throne of grace for His wisdom in discerning that tongue and that spirit that brought it. Just because it feels good does not make it as from the Lord when there are seducing spirits out there.

 

[Helen]

@JesusIsFaithful

Well my friend , you must twist yourself in knots to get out of my post what you read into it!!

I am opting out of this discussion...it is pointless ( and sad, to me)
God bless you...

 

[Truth]

As a "tongue speaker",(your definition), why should I be upset when you are "raining" on my parade?
I could not care less what you think about speaking in tongues. Why would I.

If anything I wished you also would receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

I have seen these "tongue" discussions for a long time on Christian internet forums.
It serves no purpose.
Some anti tongue christians go from forum to forum grieving the Holy Spirit.

I have seen many of them posting on different forums under different names,
but one can easily recognize these posters by their "style of writing".
Always the same bunch with a chip on their shoulders.

The non tongue speakers would be better of to start acting in unity with the tongue speakers.

I might be out of Wifi again in the next 24 hours.

I posted that I have never spoken in tongue's, but had an experience during a fast and praying for my Pastor, He was teaching at a different Church, and as I was Praying for Him in that Church, prier to him Teaching, I began to groan and moan, I had no clue what was happening, but there was a peace about it! I also do believe in the Gift of Tongue's.
I respect Your Opinion!

 

[amadeus]

I did say some tongue speakers say those things and not all.

Yes, I noticed that you had said some, but your emphasis was not there. Thank you for at least admitting that not every person is in that boat you described.

1 Corinthians 12:7 says what the manifestations of the Spirit was for.. to profit the body withal; not individually.

The whole Body of Christ has all of the gifts or will have all of the gifts God has for it, but not every part is whole Body. Some parts are hands or fingers or toes, but while they may indeed coincide or overlap in places it is not in every place. We do not even know all of those other parts yet. The Head knows them all. So long as we subject to the Head will we not always do what He desires that we do? It is the Head that directs and concludes... not me and not you.

1 Corinthians 12:13 testify to one baptism that we, the believers, all had the one drink of that One Spirit at our salvation as that verse was signifying that the gifts are not obtained by seeking a baptism of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation.

One baptism and one body, but many individual parts connected to the Head and subject ONLY to the Head, which is Jesus alone. The individual parts each have what is needed to accomplish their part in the Body. God does not explain it all to each of us. We are to live by faith rather that by knowledge. Knowledge will be given when God knows that it is needed. Who else knows?

1 Corinthians 12:25 says there should be no schism in the body.

And who is it, but God that is able always to see the Body as it progresses and is always able to recognize a schism if there is one? Just because a person says that he is of the Body, does not mean that he. Neither can one member say that another is not, just because of a disagreement in doctrine or belief:

"If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him." I Cor 12:15-18

1 Corinthians 12:19-21 testify against tongues for private use as rebuking all those supposed benefits for tongues for private use because that is essentially saying that tongue speakers have no need of any one else for the use of tongues without interpretation.

And what is it you define as "private use"? If God is leading a person, that is scarcely for private use. You cannot say nay unless you know God better than God knows Himself. Because you cannot discern the reason for someone speaking in an unknown tongue, does not mean there is not one...

Why did Jesus speak in parables? Why did He not simply speak simple clear native language to each person? Who decided which ones would get the interpretation and which ones would not? What is the job of each person who receives a correct interpretation from God? The person knows or can know, if he asks. But can you or I receive his interpretation for another part of the Body when we have no need to know? Does not God alone determine who has such a need?

The right way is Jesus Christ is the gospel and we are to be preaching Him since we had been saved, but some tongue speakers are giving another calling to seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by a sign of tongues and some tongue speakers even suggest that believers do not have the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet to seek to receive Him by that sign of tongues.

I can use what God has given me to do what He has told me to do. I do not pretend to speak for others when God has not given me their specifics. If they are to be a part of the Body of Christ, then will God not also lead them where they need to go? If they do not, that is between them and God. They may only think they are a part. God knows. Who else does?

And yet tongues were never to serve as a sign or proof towards the believers about anything. 1 Corinthians 14:22

Consider:
I Cor 14:13-14, 22 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

This says that tongue talkers should pray to receive the better gift of interpretation. The former may edify the individual, but the latter edifies the church. It does not say that they should not speak in tongues at all.

I Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

If tongues are NOT a sign to believers, how can anyone correctly use this alone as a basis for judging whether or not a person has received the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Mark 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they 1 cast out devils; 2 they shall speak with new tongues; 3 They shall take up serpents; and if 4 they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; 5 they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

NOT every single believer shows all of these signs immediately upon receiving the Holy Ghost. Could this not be referring to the entire body of believers manifesting all of these signs rather than each individual?

What shall we do?

Acts 2:38 1 Repent 2 Be baptized 3 receive Holy Ghost

Each of these three may be necessary to the sinner coming to the Lord, but whether or not someone has done all three is God's business, not man's. A man who believes he needs to make such a judgment about someone else must be absolutely certain that it is God's will for him to do so; otherwise he should mind his own business, not God's...

Acts 4:13, 31 IF a sign that someone has received the Holy Ghost is needed, speaking the Word of God with boldness would seem to be a better sign of the Holy Ghost than speaking tongues. This still does not mean that one who does speak in tongues as God controls his tongue should stop. If you have never had God control your tongue to speak, it would best perhaps if you remain silent about it rather than to speak against it:

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Matt 7:15-23 fruits of the spirit: good trees & corrupt trees are known by their fruits NOT by their gifts. Even good gifts can be and have been misused (i.e. used for man's purpose instead of God's). Men have received gifts from God but have selfishly used them to build their own kingdoms rather than to help build His kingdom as God intended.

If we disagree with something or do not understand something that a person confirms is from and of God, who are we to plunge ahead to fix it? Do know something that God does not know?

Speaking in tongues to my God is a part of my testimony. Along with my daily studying and reading of the scriptures in three human languages I speak to God daily in English, German, Spanish and in a language unknown to me. I started doing this many years ago [first sporadically in 1976 and more regularly in later years], probably before some on this forum were born to their carnal mothers.

God does answer me even when at times I have not known the question I asked. Sometimes we need to pray a prayer against which our own carnal nature would rebel. God helps us with that. Yes, He has other ways it can be done, but we must use what he has given us. What or how others do something is between them and God. How is God leading them? Why is it different than the way He leads me? The answers... are known in every case by God, but men...? Men are to live by faith. And faith is:
"...the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1

If you defend praying in tongues, then you need His truth from His words in why that is not of Him at all.

His truth is what the Holy Spirit writes in a person's heart. It will confirm what is written by His inspiration, but the writing in the heart should be the basis for our direction. You cannot cause me to deny what He has written in me.

 

[amadeus]

@JesusIsFaithful

If you cannot understand the good fight in defending the faith nor keeping the tradition taught of us that the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth was received at the calling of the gospel, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15, then you need to shun praying in tongues to pray normally at that throne of grace for His wisdom in discerning that tongue and that spirit that brought it. Just because it feels good does not make it as from the Lord when there are seducing spirits out there.

You are speaking from your own studies and convictions rather than from what God has written on your heart. You speak to me of this verse this verse:


"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15


But I say you are following this verse as you conclude from you mind rather than what the Holy Spirit has written in your heart:


"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12


Study of the scriptures without the lead of the Holy Spirit is a wasted effort.


This problem is why we have thousands of denominations based on the written Bible that are so much in conflict with each other:

II Tim 2:15 is an admonishment to study, but it is not how we learn. We learn the things of God as the Holy Spirit quickens them [brings them to Life] with us. This is the writing on "the fleshy tables of the heart".


It is not I, but you who are misdirecting people. You use your study skills and logic to read the Bible and draw you own conclusions or you listen to some man who has done that and then advise people to listen and follow.


God help us! Remember what Jeremiah wrote?


"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" Jerem 10:23


This is still true, but Jesus came so that we could have the Holy Spirit to direct us, but we continue to direct ourselves and wonder why the world of men is so far from where God wants us to be...


You may be following the Bible as you understand it, but it is a man's understanding without the Holy Spirit in it...

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

@JesusIsFaithful

Well my friend , you must twist yourself in knots to get out of my post what you read into it!!

Not sure how you can say you were saying something else, beloved sister.

I am opting out of this discussion...it is pointless ( and sad, to me)
God bless you...

Just as it is pointless to talk about tongues for private use in a forum when it cannot benefit any one else including the tongue speaker unless it was interpreted for that tongue to be the real God's gift of tongues.... and I say it is not when no one understands that tongue.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Yes, I noticed that you had said some, but your emphasis was not there. Thank you for at least admitting that not every person is in that boat you described.

If the description of the people in that boat by what they say identifies with you, then I can understand why you think that includes you.

The whole Body of Christ has all of the gifts or will have all of the gifts God has for it, but not every part is whole Body. Some parts are hands or fingers or toes, but while they may indeed coincide or overlap in places it is not in every place. We do not even know all of those other parts yet. The Head knows them all. So long as we subject to the Head will we not always do what He desires that we do? It is the Head that directs and concludes... not me and not you.

The precedent is set that God's gift of tongues will follow by the interpretation of that tongue as the manifestations of the Spirit is to profit the body withal and there is only one baptism with the Spirit wherein all believers has been baptized in at our salvation and so looking for that baptism with the Holy Spirit apart from salvation to get tongues is erroneous when no other gifts of teh Spirit is to be sought in that way. That's scripture; take it or continue to leave it. 1 Corinthians 12:7-13

One baptism and one body, but many individual parts connected to the Head and subject ONLY to the Head, which is Jesus alone. The individual parts each have what is needed to accomplish their part in the Body. God does not explain it all to each of us. We are to live by faith rather that by knowledge. Knowledge will be given when God knows that it is needed. Who else knows?

Ephesians 4:4-6 links that one baptism and One Spirit to the one hope of our calling which is the gospel of Jesus Christ; not the gospel of tongues without interpretation as if that is what one seeks as a sign that one has receive the promise of the Spirit apart from salvation. That is how you know what is not of the calling of the gospel.

And who is it, but God that is able always to see the Body as it progresses and is always able to recognize a schism if there is one? Just because a person says that he is of the Body, does not mean that he. Neither can one member say that another is not, just because of a disagreement in doctrine or belief:

"If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him." I Cor 12:15-18

And yet the tongue speaker has all those benefits WITHOUT the body when claiming tongues for private use. You guys are indirectly claiming to be the whole body individually because that special tongue you have is not for the body when it is for private use.

And what is it you define as "private use"? If God is leading a person, that is scarcely for private use. You cannot say nay unless you know God better than God knows Himself. Because you cannot discern the reason for someone speaking in an unknown tongue, does not mean there is not one...

Yes.. how can tongue speakers claim private use when they know not the meaning of the tongue? Was he being prompted to pray in tongues by the Holy Ghost? Was he being self edified by the Holy Ghost? ( Note the directional mode in how that shifted ) Was he giving thanks by the Holy Ghost? Was he singing songs by the Holy Ghost? Was he worshiping by the Holy Ghost? So.... how can a tongue speaker know unless it was interpreted? But yet he does not need anybody else in the body to interpret it for him as he goes on in what he thinks is blissful ignorance. This is not funny at all.

Why did Jesus speak in parables? Why did He not simply speak simple clear native language to each person? Who decided which ones would get the interpretation and which ones would not? What is the job of each person who receives a correct interpretation from God? The person knows or can know, if he asks. But can you or I receive his interpretation for another part of the Body when we have no need to know? Does not God alone determine who has such a need?

If we agree that the Holy Spirit makes intercessions for every believer, then you cannot agree that the Holy Spirit does it by praying in tongues, because not every one speaks in tongues. That is the white elephant in the room.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I can use what God has given me to do what He has told me to do. I do not pretend to speak for others when God has not given me their specifics. If they are to be a part of the Body of Christ, then will God not also lead them where they need to go? If they do not, that is between them and God. They may only think they are a part. God knows. Who else does?

When God says it is to profit the body withal then you cannot change His will for that tongue to be for private use just because you assume it is when it comes with no interpretation.

Consider:
I Cor 14:13-14, 22 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

This says that tongue talkers should pray to receive the better gift of interpretation. The former may edify the individual, but the latter edifies the church. It does not say that they should not speak in tongues at all.

In that chapter for the practice of tongues in the assembly, it is 2 or 3 speak in tongues while another interpret as it is for 2 or 3 prophesy and another judge. Therefore Paul is saying in context of that chapter that the tongue speaker should pray that another may interpret that tongue so he can understand it and that tongue be fruitful to himself.

I Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

If tongues are NOT a sign to believers, how can anyone correctly use this alone as a basis for judging whether or not a person has received the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Tongues are a sign to the unbelievers when hearing the gospel in their native tongue when obviously from a believer that knows not their native tongue. That is how it is a sign to the unbelievers as proof of the gospel to them that hear His words in the native tongue.

How do we know a believer? By what Jesus has said about the born of the Spirit in that there is no outward sign like the wind.. you don't know where it comes from or where it is going...so it is not by water baptism... it is not by the sign of tongues.. but by believing in Him. No one knows when a person believes in Him, but the believer does know when he believes and is thus born again.

To receive the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ ( Galatians 3:14 ) and that is the good report spoken of in Hebrews 11:1-2 in how a sinner is saved by believing in Him ( Hebrews 11:6 ). That is why we are known as the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ ( Galatians 3:26 ) not by the sign of tongues; not by water baptism; not by the Catholic Church; but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Mark 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they 1 cast out devils; 2 they shall speak with new tongues; 3 They shall take up serpents; and if 4 they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; 5 they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

NOT every single believer shows all of these signs immediately upon receiving the Holy Ghost. Could this not be referring to the entire body of believers manifesting all of these signs rather than each individual?

This was not for believers to seek after those signs, but He was saying how the world will know that they are believers.

What shall we do?

Acts 2:38 1 Repent 2 Be baptized 3 receive Holy Ghost

Each of these three may be necessary to the sinner coming to the Lord, but whether or not someone has done all three is God's business, not man's. A man who believes he needs to make such a judgment about someone else must be absolutely certain that it is God's will for him to do so; otherwise he should mind his own business, not God's...

Repenting from unbelief by believing in Him is all that the Gentile believers did in Acts 10th chapter for receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost, and that was before water baptism.

Acts 4:13, 31 IF a sign that someone has received the Holy Ghost is needed, speaking the Word of God with boldness would seem to be a better sign of the Holy Ghost than speaking tongues. This still does not mean that one who does speak in tongues as God controls his tongue should stop. If you have never had God control your tongue to speak, it would best perhaps if you remain silent about it rather than to speak against it:

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Funny how when there is no interpretation, the person is to be made silent. 1 Corinthians 14:28 Of course, I read that to mean that he was a foreigner speaking out of turn for why there is no interpretation coming and thus why he is to be made silent because he was not speaking in tongues. That is declaring that tongues will come with interpretation in the assembly or when it does not, and no foreigner understands it, then it is not of Him at all for He would not leave that tongue without interpretation when it needs interpretation to profit the body withal.

Matt 7:15-23 fruits of the spirit: good trees & corrupt trees are known by their fruits NOT by their gifts. Even good gifts can be and have been misused (i.e. used for man's purpose instead of God's). Men have received gifts from God but have selfishly used them to build their own kingdoms rather than to help build His kingdom as God intended.

The fruit of the false prophet is being ecumenical in nature as in gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles. When cults in christianity speaks and prays in tongues, world's religions, and the occult.... should you not take heed? You better discern.

If we disagree with something or do not understand something that a person confirms is from and of God, who are we to plunge ahead to fix it? Do know something that God does not know?

God has give us His words to test the spirits by, to expose the works of darkness, and for us to abstain from all appearances of evil. No way will God's gift of tongues for speaking unto the people will change to mimic the supernatural tongue that has been in the world before Pentecost. No way.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Speaking in tongues to my God is a part of my testimony. Along with my daily studying and reading of the scriptures in three human languages I speak to God daily in English, German, Spanish and in a language unknown to me. I started doing this many years ago [first sporadically in 1976 and more regularly in later years], probably before some on this forum were born to their carnal mothers.

All you are doing is exalting yourself in the eyes of other believers for having something the others do not. I understand that this is really happening to you, but no way am I going to condone that as of God. So nope. No you are not speaking tongues to God. God will not turn the use of His gift of tongues for speaking unto the people around to speak back to Himself. That would be a very confusing thing for God to do, and guess what? God is not doing that.

God does answer me even when at times I have not known the question I asked. Sometimes we need to pray a prayer against which our own carnal nature would rebel. God helps us with that. Yes, He has other ways it can be done, but we must use what he has given us. What or how others do something is between them and God. How is God leading them? Why is it different than the way He leads me? The answers... are known in every case by God, but men...? Men are to live by faith. And faith is:
"...the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1

And yet you need tongues as evidence of having the Holy Spirit. Your argument for it puts non tongue speakers in doubts.

I know you meant in regards to the use of tongues, but the premise for that tongue is having it as a sign of having the Holy Ghost, and you should have used Hebrews 11:1 as reproof for using tongues as a sign in having the Holy Ghost.

His truth is what the Holy Spirit writes in a person's heart. It will confirm what is written by His inspiration, but the writing in the heart should be the basis for our direction. You cannot cause me to deny what He has written in me.

If you do not understand the tongue, then in essence in according to His words, you are following a stranger's voice. You are just winging it in interpreting it, and I dare say if God would bother to manifest tongues and then interpret it in private use, then He would just tell you in native tongue. God is not vain to do a run around. You can't say that God has never spoken to you directly, and if He has, then why the runaround? Because God is not doing that in tongues.

God wants you to pray so you know what you had prayed for in giving God the Father genuine heartfelt thanks in Jesus's name for answers to prayer.

I dare say that tongue speakers glory in praying/speaking in tongues without interpretation as many add glory that they had received that tongue by receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation. You had glory in it by your testimony for praying in tongues in 3 languages, and an unknown language to God.

There are probably some tongue speakers in the forum swooning and being envious of you. I'm not.

You may not mean to but you are essentially bragging about your tongues for private use, and it doesn't do anything at all for the believer except feel left out in the cold with God and doubting they have the Holy Spirit at their salvation. I am opposing your testimony to tell them otherwise.

We had received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ; Galatians 4:13 That means you too, brother.

The Holy Spirit cannot use tongues for uttering His own intercessions, but He is making silent intercessions for every believer He indwells. That includes you too, brother. You do not need tongues for private use if you have faith in His words that He is making silent intercessions for you.

See how I defend the faith in Jesus Christ that does not excludes YOU? But your testimony does exclude others by having something not every believer has, thus separating yourself apart from them when that tongue does not benefit them, but only you even though it is without interpretation.

If you can't see what is wrong with that picture... then you will probably cling to tongues for private use regardless of causing a brother to fall. I can only pray that God will recover you from this evil. There is no other word for it for what I believe you have been ensnared by, brother.

 

[Truth]

Yes, I noticed that you had said some, but your emphasis was not there. Thank you for at least admitting that not every person is in that boat you described.

The whole Body of Christ has all of the gifts or will have all of the gifts God has for it, but not every part is whole Body. Some parts are hands or fingers or toes, but while they may indeed coincide or overlap in places it is not in every place. We do not even know all of those other parts yet. The Head knows them all. So long as we subject to the Head will we not always do what He desires that we do? It is the Head that directs and concludes... not me and not you.


One baptism and one body, but many individual parts connected to the Head and subject ONLY to the Head, which is Jesus alone. The individual parts each have what is needed to accomplish their part in the Body. God does not explain it all to each of us. We are to live by faith rather that by knowledge. Knowledge will be given when God knows that it is needed. Who else knows?


And who is it, but God that is able always to see the Body as it progresses and is always able to recognize a schism if there is one? Just because a person says that he is of the Body, does not mean that he. Neither can one member say that another is not, just because of a disagreement in doctrine or belief:

"If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him." I Cor 12:15-18


And what is it you define as "private use"? If God is leading a person, that is scarcely for private use. You cannot say nay unless you know God better than God knows Himself. Because you cannot discern the reason for someone speaking in an unknown tongue, does not mean there is not one...

Why did Jesus speak in parables? Why did He not simply speak simple clear native language to each person? Who decided which ones would get the interpretation and which ones would not? What is the job of each person who receives a correct interpretation from God? The person knows or can know, if he asks. But can you or I receive his interpretation for another part of the Body when we have no need to know? Does not God alone determine who has such a need?


I can use what God has given me to do what He has told me to do. I do not pretend to speak for others when God has not given me their specifics. If they are to be a part of the Body of Christ, then will God not also lead them where they need to go? If they do not, that is between them and God. They may only think they are a part. God knows. Who else does?

Consider:
I Cor 14:13-14, 22 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

This says that tongue talkers should pray to receive the better gift of interpretation. The former may edify the individual, but the latter edifies the church. It does not say that they should not speak in tongues at all.

I Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

If tongues are NOT a sign to believers, how can anyone correctly use this alone as a basis for judging whether or not a person has received the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Mark 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they 1 cast out devils; 2 they shall speak with new tongues; 3 They shall take up serpents; and if 4 they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; 5 they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

NOT every single believer shows all of these signs immediately upon receiving the Holy Ghost. Could this not be referring to the entire body of believers manifesting all of these signs rather than each individual?

What shall we do?

Acts 2:38 1 Repent 2 Be baptized 3 receive Holy Ghost

Each of these three may be necessary to the sinner coming to the Lord, but whether or not someone has done all three is God's business, not man's. A man who believes he needs to make such a judgment about someone else must be absolutely certain that it is God's will for him to do so; otherwise he should mind his own business, not God's...

Acts 4:13, 31 IF a sign that someone has received the Holy Ghost is needed, speaking the Word of God with boldness would seem to be a better sign of the Holy Ghost than speaking tongues. This still does not mean that one who does speak in tongues as God controls his tongue should stop. If you have never had God control your tongue to speak, it would best perhaps if you remain silent about it rather than to speak against it:

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Matt 7:15-23 fruits of the spirit: good trees & corrupt trees are known by their fruits NOT by their gifts. Even good gifts can be and have been misused (i.e. used for man's purpose instead of God's). Men have received gifts from God but have selfishly used them to build their own kingdoms rather than to help build His kingdom as God intended.

If we disagree with something or do not understand something that a person confirms is from and of God, who are we to plunge ahead to fix it? Do know something that God does not know?

Speaking in tongues to my God is a part of my testimony. Along with my daily studying and reading of the scriptures in three human languages I speak to God daily in English, German, Spanish and in a language unknown to me. I started doing this many years ago [first sporadically in 1976 and more regularly in later years], probably before some on this forum were born to their carnal mothers.

God does answer me even when at times I have not known the question I asked. Sometimes we need to pray a prayer against which our own carnal nature would rebel. God helps us with that. Yes, He has other ways it can be done, but we must use what he has given us. What or how others do something is between them and God. How is God leading them? Why is it different than the way He leads me? The answers... are known in every case by God, but men...? Men are to live by faith. And faith is:
"...the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1


His truth is what the Holy Spirit writes in a person's heart. It will confirm what is written by His inspiration, but the writing in the heart should be the basis for our direction. You cannot cause me to deny what He has written in me.

WOW<WOW Again WOW! I have a hard time reading anything at length, my eyesight! so most of the time I pass over long responses, maybe scroll through, and read bits and pieces, to try to get a simple understanding of a post!!!!!
But I am here to tell you I have never,never,never, had someone express the working of the Spirit, within the Body, as per individual pieces as this Post, That was Wonderful, Great representation, and it flowed like smooth Butter! It also was not only Edifying, but also, simply put a true Teaching that even I could Understand!
THANK YOU, Amadeus!!!!! I also printed it out, to me it is that good. Bless You!

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

@JesusIsFaithful
You are speaking from your own studies and convictions rather than from what God has written on your heart. You speak to me of this verse this verse:


"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15

But I say you are following this verse as you conclude from you mind rather than what the Holy Spirit has written in your heart:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

By His grace & by His help, making full proof of the ministry. He will help me to stop when it is time. It may be that He is ministering to those reading this rather than you in receiving these reproofs.

Study of the scriptures without the lead of the Holy Spirit is a wasted effort.

I know you had the Holy Spirit when you had first believed in Him at the calling of the gospel. You still do, but you allowed a thief to break through and is leading you to follow a stranger's voice in serving the glory of having that stranger's voice.

This problem is why we have thousands of denominations based on the written Bible that are so much in conflict with each other:

II Tim 2:15 is an admonishment to study, but it is not how we learn. We learn the things of God as the Holy Spirit quickens them [brings them to Life] with us. This is the writing on "the fleshy tables of the heart".

It is not I, but you who are misdirecting people. You use your study skills and logic to read the Bible and draw you own conclusions or you listen to some man who has done that and then advise people to listen and follow.

God help us! Remember what Jeremiah wrote?


"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" Jerem 10:23


This is still true, but Jesus came so that we could have the Holy Spirit to direct us, but we continue to direct ourselves and wonder why the world of men is so far from where God wants us to be...

Sinners in the world speak in that same supernatural tongue that is vain and profane babbling as God is calling them to a personal reconciled relationship with the Father through the Son, the Bridegroom, not through the Spirit to the Father. That is the spirit of the antichrist getting in between you and Christ. There is no other way to the Father but by the Son. John 14:6

You may be following the Bible as you understand it, but it is a man's understanding without the Holy Spirit in it...

You have the Holy Spirit in you since you had been saved; but you are not defending the faith nor the traditions taught of us nor acknowledging His words plainly that testifies how the Holy Spirit cannot speak His own words, but speak what He hears for why He cannot be praying in tongues.

He is making silent intercessions for every one and there is no other baptism of the Spirit except at our salvation and that promise is received by faith in Jesus Christ; not by the sign of tongues.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

WOW<WOW Again WOW! I have a hard time reading anything at length, my eyesight! so most of the time I pass over long responses, maybe scroll through, and read bits and pieces, to try to get a simple understanding of a post!!!!!
But I am here to tell you I have never,never,never, had someone express the working of the Spirit, within the Body, as per individual pieces as this Post, That was Wonderful, Great representation, and it flowed like smooth Butter! It also was not only Edifying, but also, simply put a true Teaching that even I could Understand!
THANK YOU, Amadeus!!!!! I also printed it out, to me it is that good. Bless You!

Here's a question for you to answer to the readers, brother Truth.

You had thought you were "inferior" for moaning and groaning supernaturally as supposedly manifested by the Holy Spirit. At that time, what did you think of those that never had prayed in tongues or moaned and groaned supernaturally?

If you can't see why God would never work that way in dividing the body of believers, may I suggest you pray normally at that throne of grace to ask Jesus Christ for help to see if there is something evil that you are unaware of. It couldn't hurt. Please ask Him right away in normal prayer.