Has anyone changed their mind...?

[Taken]

Thank you Taken.

I guess I have miss-understood what you have said. Now I am not sure what you believe.

Don't know why you are unclear.
I have stated very clearly what I believe.

I don't recall ever saying that scripture said that the Apostles were baptized with water

Correct, you didn't.

not sure were you are going with that line of questioning....

Point is...the Apostles WERE NOT WATER BAPTIZED, for them to RECEIVE the Holy Spirit....

Soooo WHY do you teach BABIES receive the Holy Spirit, when "THEY" are WATER BAPTIZED?

Scripture makes it clear that water was used to baptize.

Already made that POINT CLEAR.

Water Baptism was JOHN'S Baptism.

You just said....

When one is baptized, (WITH WATER) as babies have been for 2,000 years, they receive the Holy Spirit.

Again WHERE DOES SCRIPTURE TEACH "WATER BAPTISM" IS HOW ONE RECEIVES THE HOLY SPIRIT?????? (As you are teaching has BeeN the Long Standing Tradition of your Church)

The historical writings of your Christian brothers who walked and talked with

.

YOU are saying that....

the Apostles show that they practiced water baptism and HOW they practiced it.

WHERE SPECIFICALLY "IN SCRIPTURE" can what YOU CLAIM....BE VERIFIED "IN SCRIPTURE" ?

If you are ignorant of those writings then I suggest you start reading them.

.

READ THEM? "Historical writings"?

WHAT "UNIDENTIFIED" "historical writings" , are you talking about?

I am INTERESTED in YOU "IDENTIFYING" your claims....IN SCRPTURE...book, chapter and verse number.

I find it fascinating that you hold up the writings of the Reformers as being accurate, believable, holding more weight or being more valuable than the writings of the 1st and 2nd century Christians who walked and talked with the Apostles. How do you explain that?

Why would I owe YOU ANY EXPLANATION, FOR SOMETHING YOU HAVE CLAIMED "FOR ME"?

I have ONLY spoken of MY BELIEF and HOLDING TO what is IN SCRIPTURE....
And have SAID NOTHING about ANY "reformers"...

I don't understand why you don't want me to tell you Catholic PRACTICES and historical TRADITIONS but you have consistently articulated you Protestant practices and historical traditions.

I am aware of your Catholic Practices...
"YOU" have spoken of Catholic Practices.
"YOU" have identified "WATER BAPTISM" is "HOW" one receives the "HOLY SPIRIT".
"YOU" have identified some Protestants TEACH the same "TRADITIONS" of Catholics.
"YOU" have mentioned some Unidentified historical Writings.

I ONLY asked you for SCRIPTURAL References to VERIFY your CLAIMS, that "WATER BAPTISM" is HOW ONE "RECEIVES" the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Does that make you a hypocrite or is there another word for it?

Make me a Hypocrite because YOU make claims for me? Uh No.

Make me a Hypocrite because I trust what Scripture says? Uh No.

Make me a Hypocrite because YOU can not REVEAL IN Scripture ANY teaching that says "WATER BAPTISM" is HOW one receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? Uh No.

Here is the bottom line.....I know there is nothing I can say that will help you see the Truth

Sure there is, and what I have repeatedly asked you....

You claim Water Baptism is HOW a person receives the Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT....

But YOU have FAILED to show ANY SCRIPTURE that verifies YOUR CLAIMS.

and the errors of your ways.

I do not account Trusting Jesus' Applicable Scriptural teachings as ERRORS.

Perhaps it is YOU Trusting "teachings of men" that is the ERROR.

I accept scripture for what it says: Water baptism is clearly articulated in the NT and it washes away sin.

So what is your point?
Every time you have WATER on your FLESH, you are Washing away SIN?

Because Scripture that teaches it is the Lords BLOOD that "washes" away SIN.

It is the Lords Grace, that is WHY the Lord can FORGIVE SIN.

It is the Lords Baptism of the Holy Spirit, that SEALS and KEEPS a man FREED FROM SIN.

WATER, has nothing to do with the Lords BLOOD, the Lords Grace, the Lords Baptism, the Lords SEALing and KEEPing a man Freed from SIN.

I accept

what the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Century Christians practiced/believed which is revealed thru "historical writings."

You have made it abundantly clear, you accept Practices and some UNNAMED historical writings, as a basis for your BELIEFS.

You accept

what the 16th century Reformers practiced/believed and follow their historical writings.

WHAT?
Why ARE YOU DICTATING MY BELIEFS, when I myself HAVE SAID NO SUCH THING?

Good luck with your belief......Mary

WHAT UTTER NONSENSE....
YOU speak FOR ME....then wish me LUCK, believing WHAT YOU HAVE SAID FOR ME.....??
LAUGHABLE!

So far....the BOTTOM LINE IS...
I FIND NOTHING in Scripture that says WATER BAPTISM is HOW one receives THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

So far.....the BOTTOM LINE IS....
You have provided NOTHING FROM SCRIPTURE that says ...
"HOW ONE RECEIVES THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT..."IS" .... by a Water Baptism.

When are you going to VERIFY (what you Teach)....with Scripture, that WATER BAPTISM, is HOW one receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[marks]

I have an associated question. If we come to a forum, or any Bible study group, and expect that before we would change our mind on any subject we must demand a "thus sayeth the Lord" in support, does that not presuppose that such a thing is possible? That our current beliefs may not be supported Biblically, and if a sufficiently knowledgeable person can convince me of a truth with which I am not familiar, or that is contrary to where I now stand, I am open to change? So if we can ask such a thing, does this mean that we are not sure right now whether our current beliefs are in fact Biblical? How many of us have come to the Lord and openly, honestly, and with a hunger and passion for truth, pleaded with God for fresh learning experience of Him, and from Him?
How many of us have blindly (or perhaps with squinted eyes) joined a church and meekly taken aboard the current beliefs of said church, without thoroughly examining scripture to make sure that what the preachers and teachers were talking about, were actually found there? How many young newly born again Christians join the first church down the street that sounds exciting, has the right "music", speaks his "language", and is "cool", and unquestioningly accepts everything they are told? How many of us have actually sat back and asked ourselves of our own church, is that right? I suspect there are many who have been so enmeshed in their church's teachings, they wouldn't dare consider any other teaching for fear they are going to go to hell because they are already convinced everyone else is a heretic and only their church is filled with the "Holy Spirit" and has the "truth".

Hi brakelite,

These are questions I think we all need to be asking ourselves.

I've come across in a couple of threads recently the idea of how we read the Bible. I think there are various ways we can read the Bible. Sometimes we are trying to see ourselves in what we are reading. Sometimes we are trying to find our views. And sometimes we are just receiving from the Holy Spirit.

I think it requires a deliberate choice to lay aside all preconceptions when reading the Bible, but I think that we need to have an open mind about anything and everything, and let the Bible fill it.

Then there is the rest of what people often put into their minds.

Today's society offers such a steady stream of mind rotting garbage, on TV, on the radio, all over the place! I don't think a person takes in the the world's media without being affected by the world's view. Even "Christian" TV and radio isn't always. I stopped listening to most "Christian" radio around here as it was hard to tell them apart from the other stuff.

How much of the world can we consume, and still expect to have spiritual minds towards the Bible?

Much love!
Mark

 

[Marymog]

I have ONLY spoken of MY BELIEF and HOLDING TO what is IN SCRIPTURE....
And have SAID NOTHING about ANY "reformers"...


Glory to God,
Taken

Thank you Taken.

I guess it doesn't matter what has been taught/practiced for 2,000 years? It doesn't matter that some of the greatest Christian theologians (Catholic and Protestant) teaching is opposite of what you have said? Your right, they are wrong?

I apologize for accusing you of adhering to Protestant practices and historical traditions. You are clearly only adhering to what YOU believe to be true. You are only adhering to YOUR interpretation of Scripture; not someone else's.

Thank you for your time.

Mary

PS....I do sincerely wish you luck since according to Scripture baptism saves you. If you are wrong about your belief on this matter, you jeopardize your salvation. Especially after you have already been given the Truth.

 

[farouk]

Hi brakelite,

These are questions I think we all need to be asking ourselves.

I've come across in a couple of threads recently the idea of how we read the Bible. I think there are various ways we can read the Bible. Sometimes we are trying to see ourselves in what we are reading. Sometimes we are trying to find our views. And sometimes we are just receiving from the Holy Spirit.

I think it requires a deliberate choice to lay aside all preconceptions when reading the Bible, but I think that we need to have an open mind about anything and everything, and let the Bible fill it.

Then there is the rest of what people often put into their minds.

Today's society offers such a steady stream of mind rotting garbage, on TV, on the radio, all over the place! I don't think a person takes in the the world's media without being affected by the world's view. Even "Christian" TV and radio isn't always. I stopped listening to most "Christian" radio around here as it was hard to tell them apart from the other stuff.

How much of the world can we consume, and still expect to have spiritual minds towards the Bible?

Much love!
Mark

According to so called Christian TV "we" are supposed to go overthrow foreign heads of state, etc.

 

[Taken]

I guess it doesn't matter what has been taught/practiced for 2,000 years? It doesn't matter that some of the greatest Christian theologians (Catholic and Protestant) teaching is opposite of what you have said? Your right, they are wrong?

The Point is YOU are professing YOU are accepting of a TEACHING and PRACTICE BECAUSE it is a LONG STANDING PRACTICE.

The Point is I am Asking YOU, "WHERE"
( is what you ACCEPT....)
VERIFIED IN SCRIPTURE?

YOU have NOT YET been able to SHOW ANY VERIFICATION IN SCRIPTURE, that Jesus' Baptism of the Holy Spirit, REQUIRES WATER.

You are clearly only adhering to what YOU believe to be true. You are only adhering to YOUR interpretation of Scripture; not someone else's.

^ THAT IS FALSE!

YOU ASKED, "HOW" can one be Baptised WITHOUT WATER.

I gave YOU Scriptures OF HOW.

I also have SAID, it is Scriptures I believe.

So why are you making FALSE ACCUSATIONS?

PS....I do sincerely wish you luck since according to Scripture baptism saves you. If you are wrong about your belief on this matter, you jeopardize your salvation. Especially after you have already been given the Truth.

Your "good luck" gesture is INSULTING, when I have been speaking of the Lords Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

YOUR truth teaches, WATER BAPTISM is the Receiving of the Lords Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I disagree with YOU.

You have presented NOTHING from Scriptures that VERIFIES "WATER Baptism" is HOW the Lord BAPTIZES a man with "HIS Baptism of the Holy Spirit".

WHY do you continue to MAKE FALSE ACCUSATIONS TOWARD ME....WHILE you yourself AVOID showing ANY VERIFICATION in SCRIPTURE FOR WHAT YOU ARE TEACHING?

I have accused you of NOTHING.
I have agreed YOU are content with your trusting teachings and practices of men.
I have asked you REPEATEDLY, to VERIFY with Scripture THAT WHAT YOU BELIEVE, IS actually IN Scripture.
Again YOU resort to accusations, and FAIL to provide ANY Verifying Scriptures, for what you claim.

IF YOU CAN NOT provide ANY Scriptures to VERIFY your claims.....Just say so.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Marymog]

The Point is YOU are professing YOU are accepting of a TEACHING and PRACTICE BECAUSE it is a LONG STANDING PRACTICE.

Taken

Dear Taken,

YOU are professing, YOU are accepting a TEACHING and PRACTICEING what YOU have deemed is true. I am doing the same thing as you but I am wrong and you are right???

I find it fascinating that you are trying to convince me to stop accepting a 2,000 year teaching and start accepting your 5year? 10 year? 20 year teaching? Exactly when did you convince yourself that you are right and everyone else is wrong in this matter?

Curious Mary

 

[Taken]

YOU are professing, YOU are accepting a TEACHING and PRACTICEING what YOU have deemed is true.

FALSE.
I agree with Scripture.
I provided the Scriptural BASIS for my Belief.

I am doing the same thing as you

No, that is False.
You have provided your Belief.
You have provided the BASIS for your Belief, that YOU CALL 2,000 yr old TRADITIONS, and some UNIDENTIFIED "historical writings".
You have NOT PROVIDED a "SCRIPTURAL BASIS" for your Belief.

but I am wrong and you are right???

You are the only one speaking of Wrong and Right and imply you are SAD about what YOU Claim.

I find it fascinating that you are trying to convince me

I have said NOTHING about right or wrong.
I have said NOTHING in trying to Convince you of Anything.

DO YOU NOT COMPREHEND what a QUESTION IS?

Stop accusing me of junk...
Stop dancing around in circles.

YOU SAID WATER BAPTISM IS HOW A PERSON RECEIVES the Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT.......

PROVE THAT WITH SCRIPTURE...

SHOW WHERE SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT....

IF YOU Can't........SAY SO!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Marymog]

FALSE.
I agree with Scripture.
I provided the Scriptural BASIS for my Belief.



No, that is False.
You have provided your Belief.
You have provided the BASIS for your Belief, that YOU CALL 2,000 yr old TRADITIONS, and some UNIDENTIFIED "historical writings".
You have NOT PROVIDED a "SCRIPTURAL BASIS" for your Belief.



You are the only one speaking of Wrong and Right and imply you are SAD about what YOU Claim.



I have said NOTHING about right or wrong.
I have said NOTHING in trying to Convince you of Anything.

DO YOU NOT COMPREHEND what a QUESTION IS?

Stop accusing me of junk...
Stop dancing around in circles.

YOU SAID WATER BAPTISM IS HOW A PERSON RECEIVES the Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT.......

PROVE THAT WITH SCRIPTURE...

SHOW WHERE SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT....

IF YOU Can't........SAY SO!

Glory to God,
Taken

LOL....Thank you Taken. Yes, you are right. You gave Scripture to back up what you believe on this matter. Every other Christian theologian did not use scripture to back up what they believe on this matter that is why they are wrong and you are right.

I agree with you that you have not said anything about being right or wrong. If you don't think OR you are not sure that you are right about what you believe then why are you saying it? Why are you so insistent on telling me I am wrong if you are not trying to prove yourself right?

If you are not confident that you are right and teaching the Truth of Scripture in what you are saying then you shouldn't be saying it because that means what you are teaching could be a false teaching. If you are promoting a false teaching then I suspect there will be consequences.


You are in my prayers....Mary

 

[Marymog]

FALSE.
I agree with Scripture.
I provided the Scriptural BASIS for my Belief.



No, that is False.
You have provided your Belief.
You have provided the BASIS for your Belief, that YOU CALL 2,000 yr old TRADITIONS, and some UNIDENTIFIED "historical writings".
You have NOT PROVIDED a "SCRIPTURAL BASIS" for your Belief.



You are the only one speaking of Wrong and Right and imply you are SAD about what YOU Claim.



I have said NOTHING about right or wrong.
I have said NOTHING in trying to Convince you of Anything.

DO YOU NOT COMPREHEND what a QUESTION IS?

Stop accusing me of junk...
Stop dancing around in circles.

YOU SAID WATER BAPTISM IS HOW A PERSON RECEIVES the Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT.......

PROVE THAT WITH SCRIPTURE...

SHOW WHERE SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT....

IF YOU Can't........SAY SO!

Glory to God,
Taken

Stop partially quoting me. It makes you less credible. You are trying to convince me that you are right in your belief because of your methodology in coming to your conclusion. You believe your interpretation is correct and everyone else in the last 2,000 years is wrong on this matter sooooo Here is what I asked:

I find it fascinating that you are trying to convince me to stop accepting a 2,000 year teaching and start accepting your 5year? 10 year? 20 year teaching? Exactly when did you convince yourself that you are right and everyone else is wrong in this matter?

Either give a comprehensible answer or tell me you refuse to answer....So far, you have refused to answer.
Patient Mary

 

[Taken]

LOL....Thank you Taken. Yes, you are right. You gave Scripture to back up what you believe on this matter. Every other Christian theologian did not use scripture to back up what they believe on this matter that is why they are wrong and you are right.

Thank you for once AGAIN trying to DEFLECT, to ANYONE being responsible for YOUR BELIEFS.....but YOU!

I am NOT talking to "OTHER theologians".
Are you UNAWARE, I am speaking TO YOU, about YOUR CLAIMS?

IF YOU, are relying on "some OTHER theologians", for YOUR BELIEF and YOUR CLAIM that a person IS BAPTISED with Jesus' Baptsim of the HOLY SPIRIT, BY A WATER BAPTISM.....

THEN QUOTE WHAT EVER "theologian" YOU ARE FOLLOWING and QUOTE the Scripture "THEY USED" to verify their TEACHING!

If you don't think OR you are not sure that you are right about what you believe then why are you saying it?

STOP deflecting away from the Point.

The POINT IS......YOU made a CLAIM....
The POINT IS......I asked you to show IN SCRIPTURE, that Scripture verifies YOUR CLAIM.
The POINT IS......all you have done is make false accusations, talk about some UNIDENTIFIED theologians, talk about UNIDENTIFIED historical writings, talk about Traditions of the Church......

AND NOT ONCE, Identified ANY SCRIPTURE that verifies your CLAIMS....

Why are you so insistent on telling me I am wrong if you are not trying to prove yourself right?

WHY are you INSISTANT on making up LIES?
NOT ONCE did I say "you were wrong".

If you are not confident that you are right

I am confident Scripture is RIGHT.
I simply said I agree with Scripture.
You simply have FAILED to show what you believe and teach IS IN SCRIPTURE.

and teaching the Truth of Scripture in what you are saying then you shouldn't be saying it because that means what you are teaching could be a false teaching. If you are promoting a false teaching then I suspect there will be consequences.

Blah, blah, blah irrelevant nonsense.

Stop beating around the bush with all your false accusations and deflections...

SHOW IN SCRIPTURE, where it claims Water Baptism is HOW a person receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, AS YOU CLAIM.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Stop partially quoting me. It makes you less credible. You are trying to convince me that you are right in your belief because of your methodology in coming to your conclusion. You believe your interpretation is correct and everyone else in the last 2,000 years is wrong on this matter sooooo Here is what I asked:

I find it fascinating that you are trying to convince me to stop accepting a 2,000 year teaching and start accepting your 5year? 10 year? 20 year teaching? Exactly when did you convince yourself that you are right and everyone else is wrong in this matter?

Either give a comprehensible answer or tell me you refuse to answer....So far, you have refused to answer.
Patient Mary

Congratulations....
You definitely ARE A TYPICAL Catholic!

Make a CLAIM....then FAIL to show (after being ASKED umpteen times) your claim is Verified IN Scripture.


Immature and laughable.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Exactly when did you convince yourself that you are right

EXACTLY WHEN I TRUSTED TO BELIEVE SCRIPTURE!

and everyone else is wrong in this matter?

Oh Mary....that would be a claim OUT OF YOUR MOUTH....I said NO SUCH THING.

Either give a comprehensible answer or tell me you refuse to answer....So far, you have refused to answer.
Patient Mary

How ignorant can one be....??

I have NO REQUIREMENT to Answer FOR WHAT COMES OUT OF YOUR MOUTH!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Marymog]

Thank you for once AGAIN trying to DEFLECT, to ANYONE being responsible for YOUR BELIEFS.....but YOU!

I am NOT talking to "OTHER theologians".
Are you UNAWARE, I am speaking TO YOU, about YOUR CLAIMS?

IF YOU, are relying on "some OTHER theologians", for YOUR BELIEF and YOUR CLAIM that a person IS BAPTISED with Jesus' Baptsim of the HOLY SPIRIT, BY A WATER BAPTISM.....

THEN QUOTE WHAT EVER "theologian" YOU ARE FOLLOWING and QUOTE the Scripture "THEY USED" to verify their TEACHING!




STOP deflecting away from the Point.

The POINT IS......YOU made a CLAIM....
The POINT IS......I asked you to show IN SCRIPTURE, that Scripture verifies YOUR CLAIM.
The POINT IS......all you have done is make false accusations, talk about some UNIDENTIFIED theologians, talk about UNIDENTIFIED historical writings, talk about Traditions of the Church......

AND NOT ONCE, Identified ANY SCRIPTURE that verifies your CLAIMS....



WHY are you INSISTANT on making up LIES?
NOT ONCE did I say "you were wrong".



I am confident Scripture is RIGHT.
I simply said I agree with Scripture.
You simply have FAILED to show what you believe and teach IS IN SCRIPTURE.



Blah, blah, blah irrelevant nonsense.

Stop beating around the bush with all your false accusations and deflections...

SHOW IN SCRIPTURE, where it claims Water Baptism is HOW a person receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, AS YOU CLAIM.

Glory to God,
Taken

I know your not talking about other theologians. You are talking about YOU and how YOU are right. That's the point I have been making all along. You think you are right and everyone else is wrong.....

You still don't get it.....Do you? What does it matter if I am relying on other theologians to articulate what I believe. YOU rely on YOU (singular) and I rely on THEM (plural). HOWEVER, you think your interpretation is right and theirs is wrong.

I feel sorry for you that you don't know your own Christian history to know which theologians I am talking about. It is impossible to educate you on this matter and your entire Christian history on this forum. At some point you have to take an interest in Scripture, history and theology to learn these things on your own. Why are you relying on me to teach you?

I have given you Scripture AND 2,000 years of Christian teaching to back up what I believe. Multiple theologians validate me.

You have given Scripture and your own personal history to back up what you believe. You validate you.

I will keep my 2,000 year teaching. You can keep your short lived teaching.

You are confident YOUR INTERPRETATION of scripture is right. So are the theologians who teach opposite of what you believe. Their teaching has been around for 2,000 years. Yours for a couple years....at most?

If you can't see how ludicrous your argument is that since you agree with scripture you are right and everyone else is wrong because they don't agree with scripture then you are truly a prideful person. There is another word for , I just can't think of it right now.....

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Congratulations....
You definitely ARE A TYPICAL Catholic!

Make a CLAIM....then FAIL to show (after being ASKED umpteen times) your claim is Verified IN Scripture.


Immature and laughable.

Glory to God,
Taken

I did give scripture. Go back and read what was written.

I can't help you with EVERYTHING kiddo.

Oh, how sweet and Christian like of you. Calling me immature......Thank you.....You are a true example of Christianity....

Immature Mary

 

[aspen]

I’ve been told that my church is a cult - no matter how many times I tell people that I haven’t ridden a horse once during Mass......

 

[Taken]

Marymog ~

Thank you for confirming your Catholic belief is:
How people receive Jesus' Baptism of the Holy Spirit, is by water Baptism.
Is:
You can not verify your belief with Scripture.
Is:
Your belief is confirmed by some theologians you can not identify or quote them.
Is;
You also have some psychic abilty to know peoples thoughts without them telling you.
Is:
You also have some self-appointed authority to speak for others what they do not say or agree with.

You are a well trained in Catholic words of art.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[quietthinker]

Has anyone changed their mind? .... yeah, from time to time in my journey. In my 47 years as a Christian I have let things go as a result of allowing points of view to percolate. I've had to knock out bricks in the building to replace them with better ones, some were quiet structurally unsound and close to threatening the building's integrity, in fact positively ensuring no final inspection would pass.

I look at my building these days and it looks good. The bricks are well fired and there is symmetry. I'm hoping in time to come it will look better and if that means a necessary change, so be it.

 

[Naomi25]

I have an associated question. If we come to a forum, or any Bible study group, and expect that before we would change our mind on any subject we must demand a "thus sayeth the Lord" in support, does that not presuppose that such a thing is possible? That our current beliefs may not be supported Biblically, and if a sufficiently knowledgeable person can convince me of a truth with which I am not familiar, or that is contrary to where I now stand, I am open to change? So if we can ask such a thing, does this mean that we are not sure right now whether our current beliefs are in fact Biblical? How many of us have come to the Lord and openly, honestly, and with a hunger and passion for truth, pleaded with God for fresh learning experience of Him, and from Him?
How many of us have blindly (or perhaps with squinted eyes) joined a church and meekly taken aboard the current beliefs of said church, without thoroughly examining scripture to make sure that what the preachers and teachers were talking about, were actually found there? How many young newly born again Christians join the first church down the street that sounds exciting, has the right "music", speaks his "language", and is "cool", and unquestioningly accepts everything they are told? How many of us have actually sat back and asked ourselves of our own church, is that right? I suspect there are many who have been so enmeshed in their church's teachings, they wouldn't dare consider any other teaching for fear they are going to go to hell because they are already convinced everyone else is a heretic and only their church is filled with the "Holy Spirit" and has the "truth".

If I understand you correctly here, brakelite, I would suppose that yes, it IS possible to be sure in our positions 'now', but still believe that you could be shown something new in the Lord. I think this because we must all acknowledge we don't know everything and that our current beliefs are based, are they not, on our current understandings and how much we know. I remember being a very immature Christian and arguing hard for free will, because that's just how I saw it...my current level of understanding, of the world and of scripture, made me certain in my understanding of that debate. Of course, as I grew in my faith and read more, my understanding of that very difficult doctrine changed.
Could you say that I was wrong initially? Certainly. And we may find along our path as a Christian that we are wrong innumerable times. But that, I think, is how Christ grows us. We cannot grow, in truth, unless we are wrong to begin with and unless we have a thirst for always learning more.
There is comfort in being told what is true and what isn't, I suppose, and I agree, too many follow along, too interested to be a part of a culture rather than be in pursuit of what God's word says. It is a shame that people seem to becoming more and more biblically illiterate, happy to parrot what they have been told and unwilling to enter into real, exploratory conversation about it.
But, on the other hand, I am utterly thankful that through God's word there are set, knowable, unchangable truths. In a world where 'truth' is suddenly subjective, I am glad that, despite our oft inability to agree over it, we still have a place where we can go, to see these truths and ground ourselves in it.

 

[brakelite]

Hi brakelite,

These are questions I think we all need to be asking ourselves.

I've come across in a couple of threads recently the idea of how we read the Bible. I think there are various ways we can read the Bible. Sometimes we are trying to see ourselves in what we are reading. Sometimes we are trying to find our views. And sometimes we are just receiving from the Holy Spirit.

I think it requires a deliberate choice to lay aside all preconceptions when reading the Bible, but I think that we need to have an open mind about anything and everything, and let the Bible fill it.

Then there is the rest of what people often put into their minds.

Today's society offers such a steady stream of mind rotting garbage, on TV, on the radio, all over the place! I don't think a person takes in the the world's media without being affected by the world's view. Even "Christian" TV and radio isn't always. I stopped listening to most "Christian" radio around here as it was hard to tell them apart from the other stuff.

How much of the world can we consume, and still expect to have spiritual minds towards the Bible?

Much love!
Mark

Agree. When we read scriptural history of how bad things were in the past , for example in Noah's day and under such as Mannaseh or Jezebel or Nebuchadnezzar. Or when we read of the horrors of the medieval days nd the inquisitions and crusades, we wonder, how could people live as Christians in those days? How hard it must have been to remain faithful to truth. But I think that the world in which we live today may not be as openly antagonistic against our faith, but worse in that it is insidious and deceiving. Jesus warned us that as in the days of Noah, so shall His coming be. It may not be quite like that yet, but we are surely getting close, and the worldview so prevalent in society today is fashioning and shaping minds in preparation for that time when "all nations shall hate you for My name's sake". Then we shall see and witness the open violence and flagrant hatred against God and His people. Demons will be openly walking the streets inciting all and sundry to violence against God's people. I am convinced we are the last generation of God's people to walk this earth, and Satan is making it the hardest possible as he makes war against the remnant. To stand faithful today in a world that is shaping up to fulfil the final scenes of earth's history, is going to take courage, stamina, and a mind and heart which is absolutely 100% convinced that "without Me ye can do nothing". Only in Him shall we stand.

 

[brakelite]

The most drastic and radical change for me came 3 years ago when I decided to seriously study what grounds we have for our acceptance of the trinity. It was the one doctrine my church taught (quite similar to any other denomination) which I hadn't, in all the 20 or more years being an Adventist, actually looked at, question, or confirm in my own mind that I could with any certainty explain it, teach it, or say to myself, "yes, that must be true".
The first thing I discovered was that the original pioneers in our church did not believe in the trinity. At least not as the church teaches it today. So I investigated to find out, why not? And what was it they did believe? This for me has been an interesting journey. Many who have taken this same journey have been disfellowshiped, pastors have lost their credentials, and their jobs, and my current stance has set me at odds with the rest of my family, and of course with my church, although there are some who do agree with me. But in as much as I have thus far found, determined to believe what the Bible teaches and no more, excluding all assumptions, I am at peace with where I am. But we are talking about the nature of God. My main thoughts that have been predominant throughout this journey into the unknown, is the very fact that God's nature is unknowable, except in those few things that He has revealed. So while I can fully accept the 'Godhead' as scripture reveals the divine nature, that indeed there is a Father...He has a Son (which I believe is literal, not metaphorical) and they share the same Spirit for God is Spirit, I am loathe to go further and attempt to understand how those 3 entities relate to one another and how they do in fact form, if indeed they do, "one God". So far I only see the Father as the One True God. But I see the Son as divine because He is His Father's Son...God born of God.
I conclude that questioning further, attempting to formularise any belief based on such flimsy information, and then isolating others because they have doubts as to the exact formula you have invented, is hazardous in the extreme. Even worse, setting up a trinity "doctrine" and making it a criteria for fellowship or membership in any church or forum or any other religious body is arrogance and pride in the extreme.
Yet I enjoy discussing the topic. Not to convince others to believe as I do, but simply to accept my right to believe it, because what I do believe is based on the Bible. It may be more simple than others can tolerate, but I don't se that as my problem. And more, it still leaves for me plenty of room for future revelation and change. One never knows, maybe one day I will come to a point when I once again accept the trinity as taught by my church. But I doubt it.