Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

[amadeus]

Actually, not that I am vilifying CoreIssue by saying this, but I think such conclusions came from the enemy, not man. The claim that the spiritual gifts dwindled because they had fulfilled their need is adding one evil upon another. A closer look at quotes from the early church fathers reveals the gifts dwindled because corporate prayer slowly dwindled. And the more it dwindled the more false doctrine crept in as well. To now add that "God" no longer needs the gospel to be confirmed with signs and wonders following is to teach what the enemy would love for the church to teach. It effectively eliminates all hope of the church ever doing so again.

Indeed, if anything of the power of God has dwindled, is it not the power that should be residing in people... who have preached or received a watered down or diluted message and ran with it as they have become weary with well doing? God had established His plan from the beginning of His creation and it has never changed.

How was that Enoch could be translated long before according to "time" Jesus was born in Bethlehem and "before' he died on the cross and "before" he arose from the dead?

God's plan includes every possible result from a lack of faith or a lack of action or from laziness, or any other negative end. What we can do or cannot do is according to where we are in God's plan and how well are doing what He has set before us individually. The limitation is not intrinsically in God Himself. We put limits on Him according to the plan and then proceed to effectively blame Him for negative results.

Man makes excuses rather than simply believing God and walking where God leads.

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

 

[amadeus]

Agreed. I mostly post to encourage those who defend the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the continued operation of gifts of the Holy Spirit. For me to discuss it with someone who rejects those ideas gives me much the same feeling as when I used to lead worship and have unsaved, carnal people close to the altar and in my line of sight (and feel). It quenches the Spirit to even be in surroundings like that... so I just tend to avoid it as much as possible.

Each of us really must do what God has called us to do... but many who do walk with God in some measure, I believe, miss this having effectively appointed themselves as spokesmen for Him.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Indeed, if anything of the power of God has dwindled, is it not the power that should be residing in people... who have preached or received a watered down or diluted message and ran with it as they have become weary with well doing?... The limitation is not intrinsically in God Himself. We put limits on Him according to the plan and then proceed to effectively blame Him for negative results.

Absolutely, although those who take the opposite position will take great exception to this. But it is to me more the result of the church's actions than her teachings. If they were given over to corporate prayer to see the power of God made manifest (as they did at Azusa St.), and fasting to see the visitation as well, the power of the outpouring would completely change their doctrinal perspective, almost overnight. But in general they don't pray. I recall calling some of the more denominational churches in my area to see if they were holding prayer services I might attend, and some of them didn't even understand what I was asking, let alone hold any. Church just consists of Sunday and Wednesday night teaching services for the most part. That's all they know.

 

[Hidden In Him]

But it is to me more the result of the church's actions than her teachings.

Granted, whenever I hear bad teaching I tend to implicate the bad teachings most, LoL. Maybe I haven't fully made up my mind yet which is most to blame; the teachings OR the practice.

 

[CoreIssue]

Do you really believe that people without God [unbelievers] have changed at all? They remain blind and deaf. People with God are growing and changing or they are in delusion. Many people claiming God and His Son today likely are in delusion, but go slow on drawing conclusions unless God is definitely giving you those conclusions.


And I suppose you have evidence according to scripture or from a direct revelation from God that what you say is true... or did your evidence and conclusions come rather from men and the works of men? You say they "fulfilled their need", but what was that need that does not also exist today? Does 40,000 denominations of Christian believers indicate that we are all One with God and His Son?


Can you answer your own question as to what the purpose of tongues was at any given time? The answer is God's answer, and how many of us would tempt God by saying we really know His mind absolutely rather than only believe? Some of us may indeed know as God has spoken to our hearts and minds through the Holy Spirit, but if I or another were to say that that was the source of our understanding who would believe us? Probably many or even most people would disbelieve as they disbelieve God in so many things. So because the majority seems to rail against us, should we forsake God in favor of what is present from men?


And again this knowledge came to you from the scriptures or from God's direct revelation to you or was it perhaps something you heard from men who well studied in the Bible displayed something like a Doctorate in Theology degree?


"False doctrine"? You certainly seem to disagree with it, but what is it that you really know? You lump Pentecostals together as if they were all exactly at the same place in the road and believe me, from my own experience I can tell you that they are not. If you believe these are doctrines of devils, then avoid them and follow God, but go slow on condemning beliefs about you apparently know next to nothing at all... unless God has definitely given you the job to discredit them. If He has you should learn to use the scriptures yourself instead of simply generalizing or citing the conclusions of other men.


And whose record did you read to draw such conclusions about the history of men and of men's churches? If men in any existing churches were in error, perhaps they would have made no accurate records or someone even burned or discredited the records that others did make. Perhaps the lack of a whole lot of written documentation is simply because we are to live by faith rather than by knowledge. God gave us a written record in scripture in which He purposely, I believe, misleads some people. Even the disagreeing denominations have their purpose... The purpose I believe is allow us to get along even with those with whom we sharply disagree. This is Love. This is Charity.

Everyone babbles early in their faith, whether it is in an unknown tongue or in English. Do you condemn natural babies because they babble before they learn to talk?

And I have been in some non-Pentecostal churches that were really dead to the things of God from what I could see or hear. The script anywhere is wrong if the Leader is not the Holy Spirit in people. Saying that some are wrong is probably a great understatement. I would venture to day that probably most churches settings [Catholic, Pentecostal, Baptist, etc.] are wrong, but don't condemn the people and don't presume to know how to pinpoint one reason why they are in error unless you are always right in the things of God. Who is?

Do you claim the transition from Israel to church was not a tough time for godly Jews? That the changes weren't huge for them?

When did the apostles ever teach tongues at you look at them as evidence?

Where does the Bible ever teach baptism of the Holy Spirit has to be accompanied by tongues? When the apostles received the Holy Spirit there is absolutely no mention of tongues.

Think Swaggart and his ilk are legitimate?

How about slain in the spirit? Where's that ever taught in the Bible?

Most assuredly all the gifts are still given. But they are never given for show, always for purpose.

No, not everyone babbles early in their faith.

I do not have the gift of tongues so are you saying I do not have the Holy Spirit and him not saved? That you are spiritually superior to me because you claim you did.?

There are a lot of dead churches, more than are not.

I do not presume that just because a church teaches something wrong they are not godly, but they are weak.

But there are some things some churches teach that self declared themselves as ungodly. Oneness in Catholicism being two of them. They both teach another God and another salvation.

 

[CoreIssue]

Actually, not that I am vilifying CoreIssue by saying this, but I think such conclusions came from the enemy, not man. The claim that the spiritual gifts dwindled because they had fulfilled their need is adding one evil upon another. A closer look at quotes from the early church fathers reveals the gifts dwindled because corporate prayer slowly dwindled. And the more it dwindled the more false doctrine crept in as well. To now add that "God" no longer needs the gospel to be confirmed with signs and wonders following is to teach what the enemy would love for the church to teach. It effectively eliminates all hope of the church ever doing so again.

I never said spiritual gifts. I said there given at need. Nowhere in the Bible teaches tongues is an ongoing sign the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And sure not ever said you don't received the baptism of the Holy Spirit without tongues.

Gifts dwindled because corporate prayer dwindled? Since when has prayer been corporate? It is always been individual.

As false doctrine grown? Most assuredly. In much of the false doctrine has been mystically centered around gifts.

I never said God no longer needs tongues as assigned. I am saying it was never taught as asign in the way Pentecostal teaching.

It was assigned to the early Jews that the gospel was true and to be heeded.

Some early missionaries found themselves speaking in tribal tongues they did not know that resulted in tribes being converted to Christianity.

Please do not misquote me.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Gifts dwindled because corporate prayer dwindled? Since when has prayer been corporate? It is always been individual.

When it comes to seeing the power of God move, corporate prayer usually features prominently (Acts 1:14, Acts 12:5)

Has false doctrine grown? Most assuredly. In much of the false doctrine has been mystically centered around gifts.

I said I'm not interested in debating on this. The above words essentially slander the gifts of the Holy Spirit as responsible for the spread of false doctrine. This issue I do not play around with, and you should be careful about what you are posting.

 

[CoreIssue]

When it comes to seeing the power of God move, corporate prayer usually features prominently (Acts 1:14, Acts 12:5)


I said I'm not interested in debating on this. The above words essentially slander the gifts of the Holy Spirit as responsible for the spread of false doctrine. This issue I do not play around with, and you should be careful about what you are posting.

So you throw an accusation out that you're unwilling to defend. Understood.

 

[Hidden In Him]

So you throw an accusation out that you're unwilling to defend. Understood.

I said I was not trying to vilify you, which you apparently didn't understand. What I said was that the above words strike me as slanderous to the gifts. If you are viewing everything I say as an accusation against you then all the more reason why we shouldn't be discussing it, correct?

 

[CoreIssue]

I said I was not trying to vilify you, which you apparently didn't understand. What I said was that the above words strike me as slanderous to the gifts. If you are viewing everything I say as an accusation against you then all the more reason why we shouldn't be discussing it, correct?

I understood understood and you followed it up with accusations that you're unwilling to defend.

 

[amadeus]

Do you claim the transition from Israel to church was not a tough time for godly Jews? That the changes weren't huge for them?

Nothing is difficult for someone who surrenders completely to God. The problem of men has always been a lack of willingness to surrender. What do we have that Joshua and Caleb did not have?

When did the apostles ever teach tongues at you look at them as evidence?

Where does the Bible ever teach baptism of the Holy Spirit has to be accompanied by tongues? When the apostles received the Holy Spirit there is absolutely no mention of tongues.

Teaching tongues may be at times in error, but speaking in tongues as we surrender to God never is. Does a person have to learn what a gift means according to written scripture in order to receive it?

Think Swaggart and his ilk are legitimate?

How about slain in the spirit? Where's that ever taught in the Bible?

Your words indicate a dislike for Mr. Swaggart? According to his need to repent and apologize he apparently sinned after first believing. Is there anyone who has not, in spite some people's ideas about it? When we do something in the flesh that according to God's written scripture is displeasing, after we repented that first time, are we definitely in the midst of the unforgivable sin? If not , why the sarcastically negative words against Mr. Swaggart?

Your question as to their legitimacy is your own, so then answer it yourself rather than put it to me. I am not his judge in any case. I have never met the man and I have never heard a sermon that he preached.

As to being slain in the Spirit, I have seen it and I have talked with people who have. Their testimonies have often been as uplifting as any I have heard. Is it my job in any case to grade them as true or untrue as real or as phony?

Again if you are uncomfortable with what they do, why not simply take your "hands" off of them rather than stand in judgment as you are now doing? You can deny it, but you brought up the question of their legitimacy, not me.

Most assuredly all the gifts are still given. But they are never given for show, always for purpose.

I agree!

No, not everyone babbles early in their faith.

They are probably at the first very quiet afraid to speak or they are bold speaking good things about God with no real knowledge if they have not even read the Bible previously. The babble is the nonsense that comes out when we know there is a way to speak but we have not learned it yet. Young converts anywhere may have this trouble. Even Jesus grew:
"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

I do not have the gift of tongues so are you saying I do not have the Holy Spirit and him not saved? That you are spiritually superior to me because you claim you did.?

I have not said any of those things to you or about you. Why do you accuse me of doing so? There are some people who believe such things absolutely, but you are not conversing with one so please hold back from putting words in my mouth or drawing baseless conclusions. Do you not talk to God before you come onto this forum to teach or rebuke anyone?

There are a lot of dead churches, more than are not.

Probably you are correct but I cannot say so for certain. Did God reveal this to you?

I do not presume that just because a church teaches something wrong they are not godly, but they are weak.

If any of them program out the Spirit of God they are weaker than they need to be. I have never been in any church that did not do some of this.

But there are some things some churches teach that self declared themselves as ungodly. Oneness in Catholicism being two of them. They both teach another God and another salvation.

Very presumptuous of you. Have you carefully considered Matt 7:1-5 and how it may be applied to a person who condemns others without knowledge? As to the two specific church groups you named, Oneness and Catholic, I have been in both places and have known and know people in both places who are pleasing to God. Generalizing that ever member of every group is in error is not a good thing. God loves us all, even if we have not yet completely overcome the world as Jesus did.

 

[CoreIssue]

Nothing is difficult for someone who surrenders completely to God. The problem of men has always been a lack of willingness to surrender. What do we have that Joshua and Caleb did not have?

Reaching the point of surrender can be very difficult for some. You're putting the cart before the horse.

Teaching tongues may be at times in error, but speaking in tongues as we surrender to God never is. Does a person have to learn what a gift means according to written scripture in order to receive it?

A person doesn't have to learn anything except to be born again.

But that doesn't mean every claim about tongues out there is valid. That we can test against Scriptures.



Your words indicate a dislike for Mr. Swaggart? According to his need to repent and apologize he apparently sinned after first believing. Is there anyone who has not, in spite some people's ideas about it? When we do something in the flesh that according to God's written scripture is displeasing, after we repented that first time, are we definitely in the midst of the unforgivable sin? If not , why the sarcastically negative words against Mr. Swaggart?

Because he abused in faked tongues.

Every time he supposedly spoke in tongues it was exactly the same phrase every time. And there never was an interpreter.

I remember one investigator caught a fraud who claim to speak in a certain time. The problem for the fraud was investigator was fluent in that language.


Your question as to their legitimacy is your own, so then answer it yourself rather than put it to me. I am not his judge in any case. I have never met the man and I have never heard a sermon that he preached.

He was one of the most prominent on TV for years. So he influenced millions and took their money.

As to being slain in the Spirit, I have seen it and I have talked with people who have. Their testimonies have often been as uplifting as any I have heard. Is it my job in any case to grade them as true or untrue as real or as phony?

Where is it ever talked about the Bible?

Again if you are uncomfortable with what they do, why not simply take your "hands" off of them rather than stand in judgment as you are now doing? You can deny it, but you brought up the question of their legitimacy, not me.

I'm not uncomfortable. With all I seen in my life making me uncomfortable is extremely difficult.

Ever meet an admitted head of the coven? I have And hewas most assuredly demon possessed. He couldn't get away from me fast enough.



I agree!

They are probably at the first very quiet afraid to speak or they are bold speaking good things about God with no real knowledge if they have not even read the Bible previously. The babble is the nonsense that comes out when we know there is a way to speak but we have not learned it yet. Young converts anywhere may have this trouble. Even Jesus grew:
"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

That is not an answer.


I have not said any of those things to you or about you. Why do you accuse me of doing so? There are some people who believe such things absolutely, but you are not conversing with one so please hold back from putting words in my mouth or drawing baseless conclusions. Do you not talk to God before you come onto this forum to teach or rebuke anyone?


Probably you are correct but I cannot say so for certain. Did God reveal this to you?



If any of them program out the Spirit of God they are weaker than they need to be. I have never been in any church that did not do some of this.


Very presumptuous of you. Have you carefully considered Matt 7:1-5 and how it may be applied to a person who condemns others without knowledge? As to the two specific church groups you named, Oneness and Catholic, I have been in both places and have known and know people in both places who are pleasing to God. Generalizing that ever member of every group is in error is not a good thing. God loves us all, even if we have not yet completely overcome the world as Jesus did.

You are presuming a lot in what you said.

 

[amadeus]

Nothing is difficult for someone who surrenders completely to God. The problem of men has always been a lack of willingness to surrender. What do we have that Joshua and Caleb did not have?

Reaching the point of surrender can be very difficult for some. You're putting the cart before the horse.

What cart and what horse? Do we not serve an unchanging timeless God?

Teaching tongues may be at times in error, but speaking in tongues as we surrender to God never is. Does a person have to learn what a gift means according to written scripture in order to receive it?

A person doesn't have to learn anything except to be born again.

As I said the surrender to God is what matters rather than the learning. The learning will come later as necessary as we are led by the Holy Spirit, if we are.

But that doesn't mean every claim about tongues out there is valid. That we can test against Scriptures.

I never said they were all valid, but you have effectively been saying or implying that they are all invalid.

Your words indicate a dislike for Mr. Swaggart? According to his need to repent and apologize he apparently sinned after first believing. Is there anyone who has not, in spite some people's ideas about it? When we do something in the flesh that according to God's written scripture is displeasing, after we repented that first time, are we definitely in the midst of the unforgivable sin? If not , why the sarcastically negative words against Mr. Swaggart?

Because he abused in faked tongues.

Even if Mr Swaggart did as you say, why would you presume that nothing in or about tongues is real? Your personal lack of experience is just that. Every unbeliever out there is dead to God, but they for the most part presume they are alive.

Every time he supposedly spoke in tongues it was exactly the same phrase every time. And there never was an interpreter.

Some babies never really learn to talk. Some simply continue to imitate their parents and other with their babbling sounds all of their natural lives. In the kingdom of God is it not the few who are to enter through the strait gate rather than the many? Why do you keep on repeating only the stories and conclusions of men instead of seeking more from God. Stagnate waters are dead waters.

I remember one investigator caught a fraud who claim to speak in a certain time. The problem for the fraud was investigator was fluent in that language.

I could tell you stories of people who spoke in an unknown tongue recognized as a modern fluent language by witnesses, but what would it mean to you? Some, but not all, people are cheaters. The story of Ananias and Sapphira in scripture confirms this. Some are true and some are not.

Your question as to their legitimacy is your own, so then answer it yourself rather than put it to me. I am not his judge in any case. I have never met the man and I have never heard a sermon that he preached.

He was one of the most prominent on TV for years. So he influenced millions and took their money.

Again, so what? Even if he was a fraud, of which I say neither yay nor nay, this proves or disproves nothing about the question you put to it. There are people who love God sincerely and honestly serve Him while speaking in the unknown tongues He has provided to them. These people include me and on this point I am certainly not lying.

As to being slain in the Spirit, I have seen it and I have talked with people who have. Their testimonies have often been as uplifting as any I have heard. Is it my job in any case to grade them as true or untrue as real or as phony?

Where is it ever talked about the Bible?

I do not know the answer to your question. Do we have to know the answers to all of men's questions before we surrender to God and begin to live for Him by faith?

Again if you are uncomfortable with what they do, why not simply take your "hands" off of them rather than stand in judgment as you are now doing? You can deny it, but you brought up the question of their legitimacy, not me.

I'm not uncomfortable. With all I seen in my life making me uncomfortable is extremely difficult.

Ever meet an admitted head of the coven? I have And hewas most assuredly demon possessed. He couldn't get away from me fast enough.

What you have done or not in the flesh has little or nothing to do with why it is OK for you stand in judgment rather than simply taking your hands off of them. You presume that because you believe you are right it is OK to accuse openly a group of people you do not really know. Have you heard from God on this?

They are probably at the first very quiet afraid to speak or they are bold speaking good things about God with no real knowledge if they have not even read the Bible previously. The babble is the nonsense that comes out when we know there is a way to speak but we have not learned it yet. Young converts anywhere may have this trouble. Even Jesus grew:
"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

That is not an answer.

I believe that it is, but apparently you are not understanding. Talk to God about it. He knows all of the answers.

Very presumptuous of you. Have you carefully considered Matt 7:1-5 and how it may be applied to a person who condemns others without knowledge? As to the two specific church groups you named, Oneness and Catholic, I have been in both places and have known and know people in both places who are pleasing to God. Generalizing that ever member of every group is in error is not a good thing. God loves us all, even if we have not yet completely overcome the world as Jesus did.

You are presuming a lot in what you said.

I only stand on what I believe. I have spoken to you carefully in response striving not to unnecessarily offend. I am not offended by your disagreement with me, but I am concerned because of your careless words.

I hear His voice. Do you not hear His voice? Are you not one of His sheep?

 

[TruthBeliever]

The plan of salvation is still the same... Repentance, baptism in Jesus name and receiving the Holy Ghost.... And living holy and separated life

 

[Frank Lee]

The plan of salvation is still the same... Repentance, baptism in Jesus name and receiving the Holy Ghost.... And living holy and separated life

Amen.
The simplicity of Jesus Christ and his message is a stumbling block to those that are ever learning but never able to come to the knowlege of the truth. The skinny cows that eat and eat yet are benefitted nothing.

 

[Dave L]

The plan of salvation is still the same... Repentance, baptism in Jesus name and receiving the Holy Ghost.... And living holy and separated life

A person must believe (be saved according to Jesus) before they would ever want to repent. Acts 2:38 is not about salvation. It is about saved Jews entering the New Covenant. As it is with John's believing (saved) disciples in Acts 19 who enter the New Covenant being baptized in Jesus' name.