He is a Jew, He is not a Jew: the physical seed of promise

[robert derrick]

You are combining two different verses for effect.

Why do you need to do that?

Much love!

If the verses are referring to the same thing, then combining them only points that out.

However, I thank you again, because you do have a good point: Since that carnal seed of Israel is not the Israel of God, then that carnal seed of Israel is in name only: Israel after the flesh is not the Israel of God, but is an 'Israel' and nation of their own making, even as the 'Jews religion' (Gal 1:13-14), which they did purposely by having the God of Israel crucified.

They that are of Israel after the flesh are not all Israel of God (Rom 9:6), because many that are born 'Israel' the flesh abide still in unbelief.

The seed of the Israel of God is the now counted the promised seed of Abraham, which is Christ (Gal 3:16): the physical body of Christ by faith born after the Spirit, as was Isaac.

And so, there are two Israel's on earth: one uncircumcised and false and in name only, born after the flesh only, and one circumcised and of God, born after the Spirit as was Isaac.

There is no circumcision that is outwardly, not in sight of God: neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh.

Israel after the flesh is just as uncircumcised before God as any other stranger to God on earth. They are not a people of God, but can be called the people of God, if they repent and believe Jesus:

Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[marks]

is a deuce of clubs, at best.

I'm used to being the underdog.

On the use of kai, one needs to have something definitive in another place to interpret it, or it remains ambiguous. The most common use by far is "combining" (a nicer sounding word for you).

I don't think it's such a duece really. Again, I read through these chapters and it does not sound at all like Israel as a nation is over. They are still God's chosen nation, Paul stresses that they are not cast away to fall, but that the gentiles will be saved, and then they will be restored.

Paul writes very much as though the unsaved people collectively called Israel maintain a remnant, which implies the group continues as well, else, what are they a remnant of? And is clear that group will be saved.

That's because none have. Which is because no Gentile is a Christian, which is because God has no Gentile people.

In that same way, there is neither Greek nor Jew.

The above conclusion of Scripture has four Aces in the hole: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Christ. Holding out for an unbelieving and yet rebellious seed of flesh to still be the promised seed and children of Israel of God, is a deuce of clubs, at best.

Romans 9 walks us through this identification of who Israel is, but without including gentiles. Those born of Abraham. Those born of Isaac. Those born of Jacob. Those who believe. But all of this without including gentiles.

Paul is addressing the question, what about God's promise to save Israel? What is the "time of Jacob's trouble"?

Much love!

 

[marks]

If the verses are referring to the same thing, then combining them only points that out.

And if they don't, combining them obfuscates reality.

For myself, I try to stay with Scriptural terminology used on the same ways. I think of the Bible as my new DNA, and I want it to overwrite my brain. So far so good.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

And if they don't, combining them obvuscates reality.

For myself, I try to stay with Scriptural terminology used on the same ways. I think of the Bible as my new DNA, and I want it to overwrite my brain. So far so good.

Much love!

True. You made a good correction. I now distinguish between the seed of Israel after the flesh, that is not of God,a nd the seed of Israel of God.
Thanks.

 

[marks]

True. You made a good correction. I now distinguish between the seed of Israel after the flesh, that is not of God,a nd the seed of Israel of God.
Thanks.

God promised that the seed of Israel, when there was only the seed of Israel according to the flesh, that they would remain a nation before Him as long as the sun and moon etc etc.

And Paul, speaking in terms of Israel according to the flesh, this is where he says all Israel will be saved. The remnant being saved from the nation according to the flesh, to receive their promised kingdom when Jesus returns.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

I'm used to being the underdog.

On the use of kai, one needs to have something definitive in another place to interpret it, or it remains ambiguous. The most common use by far is "combining" (a nicer sounding word for you).

I don't think it's such a duece really. Again, I read through these chapters and it does not sound at all like Israel as a nation is over. They are still God's chosen nation, Paul stresses that they are not cast away to fall, but that the gentiles will be saved, and then they will be restored.

Paul writes very much as though the unsaved people collectively called Israel maintain a remnant, which implies the group continues as well, else, what are they a remnant of? And is clear that group will be saved.


In that same way, there is neither Greek nor Jew.



Romans 9 walks us through this identification of who Israel is, but without including gentiles. Those born of Abraham. Those born of Isaac. Those born of Jacob. Those who believe. But all of this without including gentiles.

Paul is addressing the question, what about God's promise to save Israel? What is the "time of Jacob's trouble"?

Much love!

Ok, so I have pretty much exhausted my arguments for a new reading of prophecy pertaining to God's people. (Who are God's people today?)

And you're not buying into it, and I applaud your resistance to flip. You have certainly helped me to add to the arguments I had, which I thought were complete. You showed me differently, and if you continue to, I will appreciate it.

So, now we simply read prophecy through different lenses:
does not sound at all like Israel as a nation is over.

The nation that has called itself Israel since the time of the cross ended as God's nation: His chosen nation and seed of promise by carnal birth.

The nation that now is called 'Israel': Israel after the flesh is just another uncircumcised nation of earth, with the name 'Israel': the nation of Israel in name only.

There is no outward circumcision in Scripture anymore: and so none are circumcised to God in the flesh anymore: not according to Scripture in sight of God. So, they can call themselves whatever name they wish, but it has no honor nor respect nor promise with God, no more than any other uncircumcised nation on earth:

But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Nations: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The earth is now the court of the temple of God, His footstool, and His temple is in heaven (Rev 11:19), which is His throne.

The Jerusalem that now is answers to Hagar, not God, and is in bondage with her children born after the flesh as Ishmael (Gal 4), having no promise from God, as Isaac did, as do now the children of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, which are counted the seed with promise: the children of promise by faith of Jesus.

There is only one seed of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, that the promises of God pertain to, and that seed is not the uncircumcised unbelievers born after the flesh. There is a seed of Abraham born of flesh, and they answer to Hagar as Ishmael, and they call their nation 'Israel', and is not the holy nation of the Israel of God on earth, and they call themselves Jews by outward circumcision, and are called liars by the Lord.

Israel as a nation of God now walks the earth in natural bodies, hallowing it wheresoever they stand by grace, while the nations of the earth tread it under foot, as they do all things that pertain to God and His creation. And one of those uncircumcised nations calls themselves 'Israel', which has as much import and promise to God as any other uncircumcised and unjust people on earth, upon whom the Sun of righteousness shines by grace.

Unless, there is circumcision that is outward?

 

[marks]

The Jerusalem that now is answers to Hagar, not God, and is in bondage with her children born after the flesh as Ishmael (Gal 4),

The Jerusalem that is now, not Israel that is now, but Jerusalem, center of temple worship.

Galatians 4:21-26 KJV
21) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22) For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23) But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The allegory is referring to the covenants, Law and Grace.

So, now we simply read prophecy through different lenses:
does not sound at all like Israel as a nation is over.

The nation that has called itself Israel since the time of the cross ended as God's nation: His chosen nation and seed of promise by carnal birth.

I continue to maintain that this in fact was God's promise, that there would be His chosen nation there at the end, and that they would NEED saving, both from physical destruction, and a new heart.

Ezekiel 36:22-28 KJV
22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

They will be filthy, they will be idolators, they will be scattered among the nations. God will gather them back from all those countries back to their own land, the Promised Land, Israel. God will sprinkle clean water on them, and THEN they will be clean. These are not the redeemed, they are being saved.

I will cleanse you, a new heart I will give you, a new spirit I will put within you. And ye shall dwell in the land I gave to your fathers.

Who are these who shall live there?

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

Just the same . . . God promised something, but you are claiming He will not keep that promise for those to whom He promised.

Much love!

Just the same . . . God promised something, but you are claiming He will not keep that promise for those to whom He promised.

Those physical people to whom He promised are all dead now.

He also promised He would cast them away, if they kept not His Word.

He did at the cross.

Now those whom He promises are they of faith of Abraham in Christ Jesus. They are the heirs of the promises. (Heb 6:17)

For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect.

If a seed after the flesh continues in God's promise after the cross, then faith is made void, and the promise is meaningless.

The promise was always conditioned on faith. God's promise was not an unconditional promise that He swore to Himself, and could not be annulled. No more than His salvation being unconditional and cannot be fallen away from.

In Isaac is the seed of promise called. The seed of flesh is in name only, and has no promise from God, nor justification in His sight.

That seed of flesh didn't want it, when it came in Jesus Christ, and they still don't want it, nor will the in future.

God's promise is by faith, not by force.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes, the condition was that if the natural order of the sun and moon continued, so will Israel remain a nation before Him.

Much love!

Good move. You keep me on my toes. Do you like chess too? This is indeed the condition of keeping Israel for Himself. The condition for keeping a seed of flesh as His Israel was conditioned on them:

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine.

Israel after the flesh is in name only now. The Israel of God is the children of promise now counted for the seed by faith.

 

[robert derrick]

It's not the same thing. Promised seed? You are again blending different ideas together for the effect of sounding right. At least that's how it seems to me.

I think we've about covered the material. You?



No, actually, He promised they would always be a nation before them. I think we are going in circles.

Much love!

Yes, we are. We are circling each other as the wrestlers of old, trying to grasp the other firmly, and each slipping away by oil and sweat.

And So we've come full circle back to the same yes/no Scriptures unanswered:

Is he a Jew that is one outwardly? Is there one inwardly circumcised that is not Jew?

There are no outward Jews anymore. If one says he is by physical birth, then he is a liar. The only Jews on earth are those inwardly circumcised.

Is there circumcision that is outward in the flesh?

All born of flesh are uncircumcision and know not God and are not a people of God, but can become a people of God by faith of Jesus.

The green olive tree was called by God the house of Israel and the house of Jacob, and so there is no olive tree of God that is not the Israel of God. All those grafted in are come in to the house of Israel and the house of Jacob.

And does not include them born after the flesh, which are Israel after the flesh in name only, but not of God.

 

[robert derrick]

Look at the whole passage . . .

Jeremiah 33:25-26 KJV
25) Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
26) Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

That'st the condition. And there is still day and night.

This was promised to those physical descendants of Jacob of whom you say werea cast out. But there is still day and night.

The clarity of this passage means more to me than logical arguments.

Much love!

I'll take logical arguments as a compliment.

God has did not cast away Israel nor the seed of Jacob, nor David, nor Abraham, nor Isaac, nor Jacob:

They abide still by faith of Jesus.

Which does not include uncircumcised unbelievers born of flesh.

 

[robert derrick]

That "return their captivity", that means to bring them back to their land.

Much love!

Now this is another one of your torpedoes attempting to overthrow me. Another rook power driving into my flank.

Now, the Lord did return them from the captivity in Babylon, to the land of promise and Jerusalem. They were physically cast away to another land.

But, the casting away and breaking off of the olive tree was by unbelief at the cross, not by land. They were not scattered for decades later. They casting away occured literally at the cross, not figuratively only to be fulfilled decades later.

Jesus did prophecy of the destruction of the temple, but that was not the casting away. The casting away and breaking off was in answer to their own prophecy against themselves, that they would be miserably destroyed for killing the Son as wicked husbandmen of the vineyard. (Matthew 21:41)

And as a seed of promise by flesh, they have been completely and miserably destroyed form of the face of the earth: permanently.

Likewise, if their casting away and breaking off were from land, then how are they grafted back in without land? Paul never left that land, when he was grafted back in. He was restored in mercy according to the prophecy, fulfilled in Christ.

And yes, the casting away and breaking off were from the green olive tree that is the house of Israel and the house of Jacob which utterly broke the covenant of their fathers with God:

(Jerem 11)...which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.

They thought to cut off the Lord from His own people, to remember His name no more and to take His vineyard for themselves, and they broke themselves off as a people, a promised seed of flesh, and they are no more remembered by God as His people of promise.

But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.

 

[robert derrick]

That "return their captivity", that means to bring them back to their land.

Much love!

Their captivity is now in bondage as servants of bondage by Hagar, while in this Jerusalem. (Gal 4)

And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. (Rom 11)

Their casting away to captivity has not been to another Babylon on earth. Except for Babylon the Great, that great city, which is Jerusalem where our Lord was crucified, that is in captivity and bondage to a seed of bondage after the flesh, bowing down their back alway ina false religion called the Jews religion.

Not talking about land again. God already been there and done that, and it only worked for a very small season.

 

[robert derrick]

It's just the way I learned the word. One use adds, copulative, John and the baker were talking together. One use explains, explicative, John, even the baker, was busy in his kitchen.



I read again through Romans 9-11 this morning. I still don't see how someone could make a case that Israel has been completely cast away.

Paul makes a big deal about how they are NOT cast away, and he continues to call those Israel who do not believe, showing the dual use of the word.

There are so many ways God could have said things to make it clear cut that the church is the new Israel, however, what I find to be clear cut, that WAS written, that says God will not cast them away, but that He's still going to save the remnent, both Old and New Testaments.

This remnant.

Romans 10:1 KJV
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Who did Paul have in mind here? Is this an expression that God will save all who will be saved, both Jew and Gentile? Or does he mean Israel?

Romans 11:5-7 KJV
5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

There is a remnant, of whom? Of Israel. A saved remnent of Israel. Why would they be called a remnant? That only preserves the fiction that the rest are still Israel, doesn't it?

But if there is a remnant, there is the nation of whom these are the remnant.

Israel is not saved, Israel hath not obtained that which he seeks for. Some did. The rest were blinded.

Romans 11:11-15 KJV
11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12) Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14) If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15) For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

And after talking about the nation of Israel, and a remnant from that nation, his own people, did Paul suddenly change gears on how he was speaking?

Romans 11:25-27 KJV
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

And so all Israel shall be saved! Yes! Every one of the people on earth who are to be saved will be saved! Hooray!!

Well, I mean, that IS good news, but is that the news Paul has been leading up to? All Israel shall be saved. That is, the believing remnant, but of Israel.

Zechariah 13:8-9 KJV
8) And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9) And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Much love!

I still don't see how someone could make a case that Israel has been completely cast away.

Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant. And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit. (Is 30)

All at the cross. Suddenly just as they thought they had succeeded in cutting Him off to remember Him no more (Jerem 11). No sparing of the seed of flesh. All concluded in unbelief.

showing the dual use of the word.

True: There is the Israel after the flesh, which is in name only and is not the Israel of God, nor the house of Israel and of Jacob, which is the planted green olive tree of God, whose grafted branches are no more earthly born, but after the spirit.

but that He's still going to save the remnant, both Old and New Testaments. There is a remnant, of whom? Of Israel. A saved remnant of Israel.

The old testament saints are now with the dead in Christ. The New Testament saints that are alive and remain are the promised remnant of the Israel of God on earth in natural bodies. There is no remnant of God by flesh.

But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

The remnant are God's own people, which are in Christ Jesus. There is no unbelieving 'remnant of God' born after the flesh.

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. Who did Paul have in mind here?

Israel after the flesh, his kinsmen after the flesh, which is now what Scripture calls them. Not the Israel of God, because the Israel of God is still His own: those of old, by birth of flesh and faith, and now those of new, only by faith.

Israel is not saved, Israel hath not obtained that which he seeks for. Some did. The rest were blinded.

None of Israel after the flesh obtained anything from God at the cross. They had Him killed instead. Some later repented and the rest still remain blind.

And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

I have climbed many stages since your challenges began, and now I will leap over a high wall:

Since all the potter's vessel was broken in pieces, with none spared at the cross, with all concluded in unbelief, this prophecy by Zechariah is now for the last great tribulation on earth, where the saints of the Lamb will be purified, result in a falling away (2 Thess 2:3) and a final breaking off from the olive tree, so that only a 'third' remnant will be alive in Christ and remain for the 1st resurrection at the Lord's coming with clouds in the air.

There are prophesies of Israel being wholly cast away, and there are prophecies of Israel cut off in parts; therefore, there must be two separate casting off: even as there are two separate comings of the Deliverer out of Sion. The first time He came is the first time all the seed of flesh were done away, with remnant grafted in again, and the last time He comes is for the last cutting off of the unfaithful, with a remnant remaining alive for resurrection.

Oh yeah.

Thank you brother.

 

[marks]

Good move. You keep me on my toes. Do you like chess too? This is indeed the condition of keeping Israel for Himself. The condition for keeping a seed of flesh as His Israel was conditioned on them:

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine.

Israel after the flesh is in name only now. The Israel of God is the children of promise now counted for the seed by faith.

Still . . . the sun and moon shine in the sky.

At the end of the day, is your response really anything more than, God decided to not keep that promise? Even though He told them He would not cast them out for anything they had done. Why then would He?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'll take logical arguments as a compliment.

I appreciate logic, however, what I'm saying is, if a logical seeming argument causes us to say some Scripture passage means different from what it says, I'd say toss out that 'logic'.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Their captivity is now in bondage as servants of bondage by Hagar, while in this Jerusalem. (Gal 4)

Not so. The captivity is being captive in other lands.

Look at how you are trying to reconcile these things.

Much love!

 

[marks]

There are prophesies of Israel being wholly cast away,

Show me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I have climbed many stages since your challenges began, and now I will leap over a high wall:

Your leaps over the walls seem to me to be to change the meanings of words, and to discount the surety of God's statements.

This one about not casting them away so long as the sun and moon stay in the sky, What would God have to say to make this understood?

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

Still . . . the sun and moon shine in the sky.

At the end of the day, is your response really anything more than, God decided to not keep that promise? For whatever reason? Even though hHe told them He would not cast them out for anything they had done. Why then?

Much love!

At the end of the day, is your response really anything more than, God decided to not keep that promise?

Since you apparently have come to a point, where you are either unwilling or unable to acknowledge my answer to this several times, then I will do so out of respect for your help once more, and then leave it alone:

God has kept His promise to that people of flesh, and they did not, and that promise was based on their keeping and doing it.

That God, who was the Lord on the mount, even went so far as to confirm that promise to that seed (Rom 15:8), by coming down out of heaven to become a man born of woman on earth, and they slew Him for it.

God kept His promise unto death: that people did not unto miserable destruction by their own prophecy (Matthew 21:41): Now they are not a people of promise. The resurrected God and Saviour now promises to all that believe Him and do His Word by faith only, not after the flesh, and if any such fall away as that old seed from keeping the promise, then they too shall be broken off (Rom 11:21).

All the while God keeping His promise: the first time unto death, but now forever more, because His gospel is no everlasting and to be remembered by the marks of the cross in His own resurrected body.