I will always reflect back to what I see to be the plain reading of the passage. If I think it says this, or says that, I can't just in my mind think it means something different.
Much love!
He is a Jew, He is not a Jew: the physical seed of promise
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Much love!
Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
Who here is "thy seed"? I see this being Jacob in Zion, his seed. Your thoughts?
Much love!
"Jew" is used in two different ways, from what I've seen. There is Israel, and the Israel of God, which are the born again Israelites.
Is the church to be included in "the Israel of God"?
Galatians 6:15-16 KJV
15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
"Kai", and upon the Israel of God, that can either be combining, "as many as walk according to this rule, and the Israel of God", two groups, or explicative, "As many as walk according to this rule . . . even the Israel of God", one group.
Romans 2:28-29 KJV
28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
The question is whether inward circumcision makes a gentile to become part of Israel.
Colossians 2:10-12 KJV
10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
I see an answer in the next chapter, that gentiles do not become Jews, instead, both become in Christ.
Colossians 3:10-11 KJV
10) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
What I see is that the true Jew is not only circumcised physically, but is spiritually. And I see that spiritual circumcision is counted for circumcision. Circumcision was given to Abraham. I don't see where anything says we become Israel being circumcised, only that the Jew is not a true Jew if not circumcised in the heart.
Romans 10:12 KJV
12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Here, God is rich unto all that call on Him, not because they stop being Jew and Greek, but because He makes no difference between them.
We maintain our identities "according to the flesh", and in calling Israel "chosen", God clarifies, those who believe. But in the Spirit we have become someone new, and no longer according to the flesh.
Being "in Christ" seems to trump any other distinction.
Much love!
Which means you will read it the traditional way, no matter.
And I'll read it this new way with Scripture to prove it.
In any case, in plain English, and the Greek also, it can be read in either way.
And tradition of men means absolutely nothing to God. I.e. if all the world read it that way, then all the world could be wrong.
Unless I see a reason in the wording that shows me I'm wrong. I'm just looking at the verse, and reason or cause isn't even mentioned there.
Much love!
Thanks much. Certainly sounds reasonable; however, you have inserted something into Scripture, that I don't read anywhere in Scripture.
Nowhere does Scripture ever speak of a 'true' Jew vs a 'false' Jew. There is only 'He is a Jew', and 'He is not a Jew', and he that says he is a Jew and is not, is a liar. (rev 2:9,3:9)
The question is whether inward circumcision makes a gentile to become part of Israel.
The question is who is a Jew and who is not a Jew. By your rephrasing of the question, you say that to be a Jew de facto means being part of Israel: the nation and children thereof.
And so, the Scripture does not say he is a true Jew that is circumcised outwardly and inwardly, and he is not a true Jew that is only one outwardly. Period. Not, he is a 'false' Jew, he is an 'unbelieving' Jew. He is a 'broken off' Jew.
He is not a Jew, at all...
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
And since you imply that all Jews are part of the nation of Israel...Then we have the Israel of God, now being His holy nation and peculiar people in Christ Jesus.
Which is in fact the original purpose of God in His first covenant (Ex 19:5-6), to which the people at first agreed, but then turned back from it, when the Lord descended upon the mount (Ex 20:18-19), so that now God's promise and purpose is being fulfilled all them that believe and do not turn back from Hisd Person.
Actually I was just looking at that particular aspect of the question.
No, there isn't a definition of a false Jew. However, Scripture names the Jews Many places, and not all believed. The Paul defines the Jew is who is one inwardly. So I see the Bible speak of Jews in two ways, not the true and false Jew, but the Jew, and the true Jew.
I don't recall saying that.
I'm not sure what to add at this point, I want to look over your last post some more, frankly, I'm having hard time following in a couple of places, but the day is wearing on a bit . . .
This is a challenging discussion and I'm enjoying it!
Much love!
Neither is number nor some in part. As I said, the verse can be properly read either way, and so it also can be read with both in mind: Part of the reason that part of Israel was blinded...
Unless, there is Scripture contradicting one of the readings. Which I say all concluded in unbelief, means all were blind, along with the supporting Scripture that says both Gentiles and Jews were all proven under sin. (Rom 3)
The wording doesn't need to be changed, but the reading must be only one way to not contradict the Scripture elsewhere, written plainly with only one way to read them.
At the cross, none were believing, and none were righteous before God, and none were profitable to Him that had the oracles of God, no not one.
For the first time on earth, the earth was void of any believers that walked with God, nor any that were faithfully in His covenant: because all the passed seed of promise were done away with the first covenant made with them: No seed of promise. No covenant of God.
For three days the deep darkness of Satan ruled over the earth, without any light of faith among the inhabitors. (Gen 1:2)
So then even so, they are still called Jews, so I'm seeing this dual use. Is that making sense?
Much love!
This remains disputed. I read this as partial blindness, or part of Israel. And the other verses tell me some were elect, and the others were hardened, which settles the matter to be part of Israel. It all seems so simple to me.
Much love!
And that was under the covenant of Law.
Even so, where is the verse which tells us that being circumcised converts the gentile to Jew? It tells us what a true Jew is, but not this other quiestion, which is "who becomes a true Jew?"
Much love!
However, Scripture names the Jews Many places, and not all believed. The Paul defines the Jew is who is one inwardly. So I see the Bible speak of Jews in two ways, not the true and false Jew, but the Jew, and the true Jew.
Fair enough. In this case, we would say there is the Jew in sight of God, and then there is the Jew in name only. And is lying when he calls himself a Jew in sight of God (Rev 2:9, 3:9), because Scripture says he is not a Jew.
However,
He is not a Jew, which is one inwardly.
I don't recall saying that.
By saying this: ...that gentiles do not become Jews, instead, both become in Christ...I don't see where anything says we become Israel being circumcised...
Since by Scripture, he is a Jew that is one inwardly, the conclusion must be: Them that are inwardly circumcised are inward Jews only.
But since by Scripture, he is not a Jew that is one outwardly, the conclusion must be: there are no outward Jews, only inward Jews.
And so, my conclusion is the same: there is no seed of promise born after the flesh and circumcised outwardly in the flesh, that once were known by God and called in Scripture: Jews.
This is a challenging discussion and I'm enjoying it!
And loving it! (Maxwell Smart)
You are certainly causing me to move a bit here and there. And I am still searching Scripture on the olive tree that is Abraham, not Israel. And if I do find that as true in Scripture, I will let you know.
You brought that up before. I'll be thinking about that. I've not really thought about that before, and it sounds right.
Much love!
A Jew according to the flesh, is how the Bible puts it, I think.
This part. If that were the only definition of Jew, being someone who is circumcised inwardly. But is that right? I think there are Jews according to the flesh, and true Jews, who are circumcised inwardly. But I guess we're just disagreeing whether one has to first be a Jew according to the flesh, in order to be called a true Jew.
Back to that dual use.
I'll just say you've really added to my homework. Suddenly I have quite a number of passages I want to reread.
Good stuff!
Much love!
Converts under the old covenant were circumcised to obtain part in the promise of God to Abraham, as well as to be lawfully in the covenant with His physically born seed. They did not become Jews, which could only be by birth, except in that they married Jews, and their offspring were thus Jews by birth.
The point being that they were never Jews by circumcision, but by birth. They were made partakers of the promises and the covenant by being circumcised. Paul claimed his status with the stock of Israel of old by birth, not by circumcision (Rom 11:1)(Philip 3:5).
Rom 2 is the only place in Scripture where being a Jew in sight of God is not by natural birth anymore, but is only by inward circumcision through faith of Jesus.
All such are made inward circumcision and Jews in sight of God by the Spirit. And so all such are inwardly Jews walking in the flesh, even as they are inwardly born of the seed of God, walking with God in the flesh.
This Scripture therefore redefines what being a Jew is to God: No longer by birth of flesh, by by circumcision of the heart. (The only way to be Jew before the cross, was by natural birth of the flesh)
There are no more outward Jews by birth in sight of God, as plainly stated in Scripture. He is not a Jew, that is one outwardly: I.e. born of the flesh. That seed is been changed or perhaps 'translated' from that of Abraham and Isaac, to that of Abraham and Hagar, as Ishmael was.
Ishmael was circumcised, but neither he nor his descendants could ever be by birth the children of promise and of Israel, called the Jews of the covenant. And so are all they born after the flesh of Abraham today. They call themselves Jews by birth, and they are not, but are lying to God and themselves.
who becomes a true Jew?"
By your input, I would now say them with inward circumcision become inward Jews in mortal bodies. And there are no outward Jews anymore: neither by birth of flesh nor by inward circumcision in the spirit.
As a Christian, I am a Christian, not a Jew outwardly, but counted as that seed of promise inwardly.
Though I am become a Jew inwardly, I am not a Jew outwardly. There are no more outward Jews on earth, because he is not a Jew that is one outwardly born of the flesh.
I understand.
some were elect, and the others were hardened
To me, this is the one single Scripture that would most support your reading:
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
I.e. not all Israel obtained, but only the elect...
And so I have one question: Exactly when were some elect while others hardened?
If before the cross with Jesus a man on earth, then you would be certainly correct, because Israel was only partly blinded to Jesus as the promised Redeemer to come out of Sion.
But, if after the cross with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, then it would apply only to them that did not abide in unbelief, while the rest remained blinded, or were blinded still.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
This remnant elect that has obtained is of grace. Therefore, it must be by the faith of Jesus after the cross, before which the elect never obtained anything by grace, but only by promise of circumcision and faithfulness to the first covenant.
Therefore, I could read: No Israel obtained before the cross, and only the elect by grace through faith in the gospel of the cross has obtained.
Unless, I am wrong about grace of God to obtain His promise before the cross?
I'm out of time . . . I'll need to come back to this, and I'll be fresher then. I'm looking forward to it!
Much love!
I considered Abraham being God's olive tree, and initially I considered the dead in Christ being in the bosom of Abraham, and the believers having access to the tree of life in the midst of the paradise of God, which is considered by some to have been the Bosom of Abraham.
And so, maybe that tree of life in the midst of the garden is the holy olive tree of God, in the midst of the Bosom of Abraham.
However, I do see Scripture that is less theoretical and more directly tying the olive tree to Israel:
In Psalms 52, David compares himself as a green olive tree in the house of God, in the context of the liars and persecutors being cast away: destroyed, taken away, plucked out of. Which would be out of the house of God, where David abides a green olive tree.
David is most known in Scripture and mentioned by Scripture as king of Israel, and all things about him have there todo with Israel and Christ. In fact, not much is said in Scripture pertaining to David and Abraham, except in the book of the generation of Christ in Matthew 1.
Isaiah 17 specifically has Jacob being gleaned and made thin as an olive tree shaken.
Isaiah 24 shows the results of the olive tree being shaken of Jacob, with all them that glorify the Lord God of Israel: grafted in?
Jerem 11 plainly says the Lord God called the name of the house of Israel and of Judah: a green olive tree that he planted.
Hosea 14, and Israel will be healed and spread his branches as an olive tree: the grafting in after the cross, following the casting away of the first branches of the first covenant made with the fleshy seed of Abraham: the children of Israel by flesh.
So, the olive tree by Scripture is the house of Israel (not just the Israel of God), but the very house of Israel and of Jacob, so that all they grafted in are come in to the house of Israel and of Jacob: the green olive tree of God.
In this light, we conclude without doubt that the children of Abraham and of God through faith of Jesus, that are counted by God to be the seed of promise, grafted into the olive tree of Israel and of Jacob: even that seed is not only the seed of promise as Isaac, but is also the seed of Jacob:
Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them. (Jerem 33)
1. The seed of Jacob were all cast away: the seed of promise by flesh. Neither Israel, nor Jacob, nor Isaac, nor Abraham, nor David were cast away (Rom 11), but their fleshy seed of unbelief were. The people that God cast away from Himself were not 'His people' anymore, and so God has never and will never cast away His people, that abide in His olive tree of Israel and true vine of Christ.
2. The seed of promise is the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: there is only one seed of promise. Not seeds of promise. (Gal 3)
All Christians grafted into the Israel of God, are now children of the house of Israel and of Jacob, and are the counted the seed of promise of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, even as Isaac, being born after the spirit, and not after the flesh.
The children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: the house of Israel and of Jacob are all believers in Christ, born of the seed of God and His promise, who walk in natural bodies after the Spirit, even as Jesus so walked in the flesh.
The body of Christ is full of Jews inwardly by circumcision of the heart, and walk in natural bodies as the holy nation and House of the Israel of God.
Israel after the flesh is in name only, and there are no Jews that are outwardly, except those that say they are and are lying.
This olive tree of God and it's grafted-in believers will be shaken also as it was shaken in the days of Jesus, when the deliverer came out of Sion to fulfill the prophesies of old to the seed of flesh, and to confirm the promises of the fathers after the flesh. This is when the first beast will rise to power, and will make war with the saints of the Lamb and overcome them, which is just prior to the Lord's return to reign on earth in His resurrected spiritual body.
The prophecies and promises of old are twofold: the first to the seed of flesh, which is done and over with, and now to the seed of promise after the Spirit, which is ongoing and will be accomplished during the last great tribulations days on earth.
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Jeremiah 33:19-22 KJV
19) And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
20) Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
21) Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
22) As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
Jeremiah 33:25-26 KJV
25) Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
26) Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
This is one of those things, I wonder, what it is God would have to say? He's not casting out Israel for any reason so long as this natural order of the sun and moon continues.
Much love!
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