He is a Jew, He is not a Jew: the physical seed of promise

[marks]

There is no unbelieving 'remnant of God' born after the flesh.

Just so!

There is no unbelieving remnent. So then the rest are unsaved. That's the point. There is a believing remnent, which means the rest are the remainder from that remnant . . . Israel according to the flesh. And so all Israel shall be saved.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Since you apparently have come to a point, where you are either unwilling or unable to acknowledge my answer to this several times, then I will do so out of respect for your help once more, and then leave it alone:

Neither unwilling nor unable, and why would you restrict me to those two?

Perhaps the reality is that I understand your argument, but I find it unconvincing.

"God made seemingly rock solid promises to Israel, but then, because of Israel's rejection of God, God rejected Israel, and put someone else in their place, and will keep those promises to that someone else." Isn't that essentially it?

Much love!

 

[marks]

God kept His promise unto death: that people did not unto miserable destruction by their own prophecy (Matthew 21:41): Now they are not a people of promise.

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Your claim is that Israel's actions caused them to be cast off from God. Why would God do that?

BTW . . . since I'm in that chapter, re captivity,

Jeremiah 30:3 KJV
3) For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

This is how the Bible speaks of their captivity.

Much love!

 

[marks]

God kept His promise unto death:

I'm of the mind that God will keep His promises even past death. Jesus actually died to save those who murdered Him as well.

Much love!

 

[marks]

At the end of the day, How can we trust God's promises?

If He tells me, As long as the sun and moon shine in the sky, as long as the world spins 'round it's axis, I will love you, and you are Mine!

Should I believe it?

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

Still . . . the sun and moon shine in the sky.

At the end of the day, is your response really anything more than, God decided to not keep that promise? Even though He told them He would not cast them out for anything they had done. Why then would He?

Much love!

Still . . . the sun and moon shine in the sky.

Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. (Jerem 33)

They certainly did break His covenant made from the mount (Jerem 31:32): which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD.

The covenant with David is broken, when he shall not have a son to reign upon his throne: which son of David after the flesh reigns upon his throne now? None. That covenant with the seed of David by flesh is broken.

When was that covenant broken? By the seed of flesh utterly, completely, all being concluded in unbelief at the cross.

 

[marks]

They certainly did break His covenant made from the mount (Jerem 31:32):

Was that the covenant God meant?

Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;

No it was not.

You are arguing from the wrong covenant.

No one has broken God's covenant of Day and Night.

Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. (Jerem 33)

And since no one has broken THAT covenant . . .

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

So long as the sun and moon go 'round, the "seed of Israel" will remain a nation before God.

Can you measure the heavens? If so, OH, and if you can visit, and inspect the foundations of the earth . . . God will cast off ALL the seed of Israel. All of them! But no, you can't do that, and God won't either.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The covenant with David is broken, when he shall not have a son to reign upon his throne: which son of David after the flesh reigns upon his throne now? None. That covenant with the seed of David by flesh is broken.

Why would that have happened?

Jeremiah 33:25-26 KJV
25) Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
26) Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

Doesn't God have His covenant with day and night . . . do they not continue? If they do, and I just looked outside, the sun is still shining, Why? That's the condition.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

Still . . . the sun and moon shine in the sky.

At the end of the day, is your response really anything more than, God decided to not keep that promise? Even though He told them He would not cast them out for anything they had done. Why then would He?

Much love!

Still . . . the sun and moon shine in the sky.

Not for a dead man.

The highways lie waste, the wayfaring man ceaseth: he hath broken the covenant, he hath despised the cities, he regardeth no man. (Is 33:8)

That is the Lord as a man breaking the covenant He made from the mount. When? At the cross. How? He died.

How can a maker of covenant on earth with a seed of flesh, keep that convent, when that maker is dead, and not on earth, but in a grave?

And so, even as there was for three days and nights no more sun nor moon 'shining in the sky' for that dead man, neither did he regard any man on earth as seed of promise with covenant from the grave, and all were concluded in unbelief, and no son of David sat on his throne on earth: Neither by flesh, nor by Christ born son of David: No son of David ws sitting on the throne of David for three whole days and nights:

The covenant with David was broken when his last son of the flesh died as a curse on the cross.

In the grave adn heart of the earth, He regarded no man, the whole earth mourned and languished, and all Lebanon was hewn down (Jerem 33:8-9): all natural branches were broken off the green olive tree of the house of Israel and of Jacob: suddenly and in an instant (Is 30:13-14). The very moment the last son of David breathed out His last breath on the cross.

But, what says the Scripture immediately following? Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself. (vs 10)

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

All old things of that God and Lord to Abraham and from the mount is passed away, and behold all things are now new and of that risen God and Saviour, whether promise, covenant, law, commandment, ordinance, and of course seed of promise that is no more after the flesh, but is only after the Spirit by the faith of their father Abraham.

The crucifying of the Lord God from the mount by His own seed of promise and covenant, was not just a blip on the history screen of prophecy: it was a complete end of all things of that God made with any man on earth in Person: that God Himself had no sun nor moon shining upon Him in the grace, nor in the heart of the earth. Period.

He suffers that seed of flesh no more, because they are no more a promised seed by flesh. They all made themselves uncircumcision and not a people of God:

For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. (Rom 2:25)

God is perfect and so is His Word to be written in this manner at this place: what greater 'breaking' of the law can there be, and so making circumcision uncircumcision, than to break the covenant of the law, by breaking the Lawgiver on a cross?

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out. The violence done to me and to my flesh be upon Babylon, shall the inhabitant of Zion say; and my blood upon the inhabitants of Chaldea, shall Jerusalem say.

That seed of promise by flesh made themselves uncircumcision and no people of God by violently breaking His Son in the flesh on a cross, through breaking the Law of Moses with false accusation of false witnesses, and they have made their great city on earth, where our Lord was crucified, to be Babylon, rule by the dragon, that old serpent, the Devil and Satan: a seed of bondage after the flesh under Hagar, as Ishmael was, persecuting the seed of promise born after the Spirit, and cast out forever as a seed to God, except they repent and believe Jesus. (Gal 4:28-31)

 

[robert derrick]

Just so!

There is no unbelieving remnent. So then the rest are unsaved. That's the point. There is a believing remnent, which means the rest are the remainder from that remnant . . . Israel according to the flesh. And so all Israel shall be saved.

Much love!

which means the rest are the remainder from that remnant

Cute. the remaining unbelievers to become that remnant election of grace, is all uncircumcision on earth that repent and believe Jesus, whether they call themselves Jew, Muslim, Gentile, Greek, Scythian, or Israel, which is in name only. (And they are lying when calling themselves Jews outwardly)

Is he a Jew that is one outwardly? Is that circumcision that is outward in the flesh?

 

[robert derrick]

I appreciate logic, however, what I'm saying is, if a logical seeming argument causes us to say some Scripture passage means different from what it says, I'd say toss out that 'logic'.

Much love!

Yes toss out that logic, which is faulty carnally minded logic. Which I did toss out by your correction. Thanks.

 

[robert derrick]

Not so. The captivity is being captive in other lands.

Look at how you are trying to reconcile these things.

Much love!

Are them that call themselves Jews (and are lying) and Israel (in name only), abiding still in unbelief in the Jerusalem that now is on earth, and are under bondage with Hagar: captive in other lands?

I would say you are trying to reconcile the bondage of an Israel after the flesh by unbelief, as a captivity in another land, in order to avoid their only reconciling and mercy being found in Christ, by grafting in again to the Israel of God, to join them that are children of promise by faith, and are born of the free woman and mother of us all: New Jerusalem.

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Who are these children of promise born after the Spirit, and who are these born after the flesh and children of the bondwoman?

 

[marks]

Still . . . the sun and moon shine in the sky.

Not for a dead man.

Really.

Even though a man lies dead in the ground, yet the sun and moon still shine in the sky.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Are them that call themselves Jews (and are lying) and Israel (in name only), abiding still in unbelief in the Jerusalem that now is on earth, and are under bondage with Hagar: captive in other lands?

You are blending things that aren't the same.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'm going to bow out at this time.

I really appreciate the discussion. I think we are going in circles. If you have some particular question on a certain point that's cool, I don't mind, but I think mostly we are repeating.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

The Jerusalem that is now, not Israel that is now, but Jerusalem, center of temple worship.

Galatians 4:21-26 KJV
21) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22) For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23) But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The allegory is referring to the covenants, Law and Grace.



I continue to maintain that this in fact was God's promise, that there would be His chosen nation there at the end, and that they would NEED saving, both from physical destruction, and a new heart.

Ezekiel 36:22-28 KJV
22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

They will be filthy, they will be idolators, they will be scattered among the nations. God will gather them back from all those countries back to their own land, the Promised Land, Israel. God will sprinkle clean water on them, and THEN they will be clean. These are not the redeemed, they are being saved.

I will cleanse you, a new heart I will give you, a new spirit I will put within you. And ye shall dwell in the land I gave to your fathers.

Who are these who shall live there?

Much love!

The allegory is referring to the covenants, Law and Grace.

True, covenant, law, and grace pertaining to two sons of Abraham born of free and born of bondage, mount Sinai in Arabia Hagar, Jerusalem in bondage one earth, free Jerusalem above, the children of promise born after the Spirit as Isaac, and the children of bondage born after the flesh persecuting them of promise:

So, in this allegory, who are the children of promise boran after the Spirit, and the children of bondage born after the flesh?

 

[robert derrick]

The Jerusalem that is now, not Israel that is now, but Jerusalem, center of temple worship.

Galatians 4:21-26 KJV
21) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22) For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23) But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The allegory is referring to the covenants, Law and Grace.



I continue to maintain that this in fact was God's promise, that there would be His chosen nation there at the end, and that they would NEED saving, both from physical destruction, and a new heart.

Ezekiel 36:22-28 KJV
22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

They will be filthy, they will be idolators, they will be scattered among the nations. God will gather them back from all those countries back to their own land, the Promised Land, Israel. God will sprinkle clean water on them, and THEN they will be clean. These are not the redeemed, they are being saved.

I will cleanse you, a new heart I will give you, a new spirit I will put within you. And ye shall dwell in the land I gave to your fathers.

Who are these who shall live there?

Much love!

His chosen nation there at the end, and that they would NEED saving, both from physical destruction, and a new heart.

No chosen people after the death of Christ need saving, for they can only be chosen as elect of God by grace.

No uncircumcised unbeliever is a chosen child and elect seed of flesh with God our Saviour.

That bypasses the death of the God of Israel on the cross and frustrates grace of God that chooses and saves by faith.

His arms are opened wide as the cross, to receive them by grace through faith and to stop them that would climb up another way by flesh.

The cross is the end of all old flesh pertaining to things of God, and the becoming newborns by faith.

 

[robert derrick]

The Jerusalem that is now, not Israel that is now, but Jerusalem, center of temple worship.

Galatians 4:21-26 KJV
21) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22) For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23) But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The allegory is referring to the covenants, Law and Grace.



I continue to maintain that this in fact was God's promise, that there would be His chosen nation there at the end, and that they would NEED saving, both from physical destruction, and a new heart.

Ezekiel 36:22-28 KJV
22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

They will be filthy, they will be idolators, they will be scattered among the nations. God will gather them back from all those countries back to their own land, the Promised Land, Israel. God will sprinkle clean water on them, and THEN they will be clean. These are not the redeemed, they are being saved.

I will cleanse you, a new heart I will give you, a new spirit I will put within you. And ye shall dwell in the land I gave to your fathers.

Who are these who shall live there?

Much love!

They will be filthy, they will be idolators, they will be scattered among the nations. God will gather them back from all those countries back to their own land, the Promised Land, Israel.

All uncircumcised unbelievers are concluded in all manner sin, including those in their own nation they call Israel, not living among other uncircumcised nations on earth. No more a matter of physical birth and earthy land, being trampled upon by uncircumcised unbelievers in all manner of sins and trespasses.

I will cleanse you, a new heart I will give you, a new spirit I will put within you.

These are all those grafted into the green olive tree of God of Israel, by faith of Jesus in His New Covenant.

And ye shall dwell in the land I gave to your fathers. Who are these who shall live there?

Who are the children of our father Abraham? Are there fathers born after Abraham, whose children have not Abraham for father?

Then they are not children of promise and counted seed of Abraham, as Isaac, which is the only seed of promise of God and chosen children and people of God.

There not not two seeds of Abraham as Isaac, nor two people chosen of the Lord God of Israel: Jesus Christ.

There are no doubt by mercy of God many of them born of flesh called Israel after the flesh, that will be grafted in again for the fathers' sake, but not for any sake of their own, since no such flesh has any promise of God, nor is chosen and elect of God, which is only by grace through faith of Jesus Christ:

Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance...But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light...And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There is only one seed of Abraham according to promise, one chosen people and nation of the Lord Jesus Christ on earth in natural bodies.

There are not two seed of promise of Abraham, nor two different chosen people of God, nor two different nations of the Lord called by Him to be His peculiar people above all others on earth.

Is there another nation chosen of another God on earth, other than that which Scripture says is the Lord's Jesus Christ?

Is there a seed of flesh still chosen of that Lord and God from the mount. He still chooses them for His own after His own death at their hands?

 

[robert derrick]

I'm going to bow out at this time.

I really appreciate the discussion. I think we are going in circles. If you have some particular question on a certain point that's cool, I don't mind, but I think mostly we are repeating.

Much love!

True. thanks much for your participation. I have learned much, brother Marks.

And so in conclusion, if the original yes/no questions remain unanswered, then the conclusions based on them stand as true, and other learned traditions are not, which anyone is more than free to believe.

Is He a Jew that is one outwardly. Is there one inwardly circumcised that is not Jew?

Is there circumcision that is outward in the flesh?

The green olive tree of God is called by God the house of Israel and of Jacob, and so what are they coming in to, when they are grafted into it?

I do hope someone makes the effort.

 

[robert derrick]

Neither unwilling nor unable, and why would you restrict me to those two?

Perhaps the reality is that I understand your argument, but I find it unconvincing.

"God made seemingly rock solid promises to Israel, but then, because of Israel's rejection of God, God rejected Israel, and put someone else in their place, and will keep those promises to that someone else." Isn't that essentially it?

Much love!

Yes, that is very clear, and thank you for making the honest effort of trying to state clearly what I am saying. It's all I ask.

With also: and will keep those promises to that someone else, as well as to them that rejected Him first, if they abide not still in unbelief.

And they were rock solid promises, that He kept unto death, not just seemingly.