This seems to be where the debate turns.
This is where we disagree I think.
Much love!
He is a Jew, He is not a Jew: the physical seed of promise
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This is where we disagree I think.
Much love!
That wouldn't make any sense to me. We are already with Christ is heaven, why would that change?
Much love!
This is one of those things, I wonder, what it is God would have to say? He's not casting out Israel for any reason so long as this natural order of the sun and moon continues.
And God has not, and is not. Israel and the seed of Israel of God are God's people still. The name remains the same, it is the manner of people that God has changed to have right to that name by God: from that born of flesh to that born after the Spirit, as Isaac was.
Scripture shows plainly that God has called His green olive tree: the house of Israel and the house of Jacob: the Israel of God.
The olive tree of Rom 11 is not Abraham. It must be the olive tree of prophecy, that God warned He would bring a fire to it, adn it's branches broken off (Jerem 11:16). And God is that all consuming fire come in the flesh: Jesus, the Redeemer come out of Sion.
Therefore, with the cross, all circumcised inwardly through faith of Jesus are now grafted into, and are come in to the Israel of God: the house of Israel and of Jacob: which is called by God: the green olive tree, that He had Personally planted. He planted that tree in Isaac, who was born after the Spirit by promise of God and faith of Abraham, and from Sarah's womb while yet dead.
For a season, the seed of that flesh was allowed into Covenant with God, despite all their drawing back and rebellion from the very outset of the mount and the wilderness. That seed of flesh then finally had Him crucified, and now that seed of flesh has no more to do with the seed of Abraham by promise of God, as was Isaac. God has not cast away His Israel and His seed of promise: He has done away with any seed of flesh having right to be so named and called.
Jesus, as well as John Baptist, showed the time that the seed of Abraham would no more be named by birth of flesh (Matthew 3:9)(John 8), when they both were unbelieved and rejected by them.
Likewise, Scripture says plainly that all such seed of promise by faith of Jesus are NOW the children of Abraham, the children of God, the children of faith that are counted the seed of promise, and are grafted into and come in to the Israelite olive tree of God: and they cannot and must never be called Israel? Who says.
Israel is God's name, that He made and chose for a certain person of faith called Jacob, who showed by faith power as a Prince with God, and He went on for a time to bestow that name to that man Jacob's physical seed born of flesh, until the fullness of time should come, when the Redeemer of Sion would come, and with the cross, that name of Israel is bestowed on a better seed: so much better than seed of man, as is the seed of God.
It is God Who has sole right to call whosever He will by that name Israel, which is His alone to bestow upon and call by name.
A carnal seed on earth born of flesh, and a people seeing prophecy only according to that seed of flesh, do not own the name of Israel, to declare who should have it, and who should not: That is God's decision alone, and He made it at the cross.
All anyone need do to undermine all of this is state plainly:
He is a Jew that is one outwardly, there is one circumcised inward that is not a Jew.
And then of course show by Scripture how those statements do not directly contradict Scripture: He is a Jew that is one inwardly, and he is not a Jew, that is one outwardly
Or, show that the green olive tree of God, planted by God, and called the house of Israel and of Jacob by God, is not the Israel of God.
Or, show how there are them grafted into that house of Israel green olive tree, asre not actually come in to the Israel of God.
Absolutely. There is a wall and partition that I have been compelled to pass through, because it no longer exists with God:
There is no more any separation of seed of flesh on earth anymore. One blood in flesh, and one seed of flesh. (Acts 17)
All are born into uncircumcision and will remain such in sight of God, except they obey the common commandment to repent and believe Jesus. The only promise of God remaining to any on earth is by grace offered to all born of earth: the gift of eternal life by Christ Jesus.
The seed of promise of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob are now in natural body only, no more born after the flesh as was Ishmael, but now born after the Spirit, as was Isaac.
A movie called The Legend of Bagger Vance, had a caddie talking about Mr Jonas, that he wasn't really Mr Jonas anymore after his wartime experience, which had completely changed him. He said, 'He only thinks he is Mr Jonas now'.
I.e. a change had taken place so completely, that the old Mr Jonas no longer existed. That old name no longer applied to who he was now. Physically, he looked and talked the same, but no longer the same at all.
None can be called by the name of 'Jew' anymore that is outwardly by birth of flesh. Man can still do so, but the Lord says they are lying.
The Israel that is after the flesh is in name only. It is no more the Israel of God, nor the house of Israel and of Jacob, which is called His green olive tree, planted by Himself in Isaac.
Is the olive tree of God, the Israel of God and house of Jacob?
Are they circumcised inwardly grafted into and come in to that olive tree?
Is he a Jew, that is one outwardly? Is there one circumcised inwardly, that is not a Jew?
But you say He will not fulfull the promise He made to that nation. Because you transfer it to another people.
There is no "Seed of Israel of God".
I'm curious, do you count this the same?
1 Kings 2:33 KJV
Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever: but upon David, and upon his seed, and upon his house, and upon his throne, shall there be peace for ever from the LORD.
Who, for instance, are these?
And who is this?
Jeremiah 22:28-30 KJV
28) Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?
29) O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.
30) Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.
Will this be transfered to someone else?
It's like saying, I'm going to give you $1,000,000. And then when the time comes, I say, "when I said 'you', I'm changing it to 'him', and not 'you'.
Who received the promise? And who received what was promised?
So again, if that is so, what value was the promise? What value are God's promises to us? Will He keep those?
I just don't think I have the same willingness to let go of plain statements in Scripture. These sound to me to be as strongly worded as anything in the Bible, just below, "I have sworn by Myself".
Here, for example, we can talk about trees and branches, but Paul didn't identify what he wrote there. Yes, as you've shown, there is much to say about Israel as an olive tree. But as you've pointed out, the plain statement made is that we are children of faithful Abraham, and not counted as children of Jacob, or the seed of Israel.
The clear statement is concerning Abraham.
There is no place in the Bible though that specifically says that the NT gentile Christians become part of Israel. This one place is debatable, hinging one whether it is the copulative or explicative use of "kai".
Except that's who God spoke the prophecy to, that carnal seed according to the flesh. God declared who has that name, and who are we to say different? Who are we to say He won't keep His promises, given with such a strong affirmation?
Much love!
But you say He will not fulfull the promise He made to that nation. Because you transfer it to another people.
I do not 'transfer' the promise to another people. God's has changed the nature of His people that receive the promise: born after the Spirit as was Isaac, not after the flesh as was Ishmael.
Them that were of faith of God as physical seed have received that promise by the Redeemer, and are among the dead in Christ: old testament saints. Those were not only of Israel after the flesh, but were indeed Israel of God, though born of flesh.
You are not willing to pass through the wall that no longer exists: the promise made by God was kept to His people, His nation of Israel, His seed of promise as Isaac, which before the cross were all promise by birth of flesh. Now after the cross is all promise by birth after the Spirit, and none after the flesh anymore.
Those grafted into the house of Israel, which is the green olive tree of God, are the holy nation of Israel of God on earth in natural bodies, which is the body of Christ: Christ Himself being the promised seed of Abraham and David. God's nation of His Israel is still on earth: all Christians come in to His Israel by faith, that are yet alive and remain.
There is no "Seed of Israel of God".
Why do you say that?
O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. (1 Chron 16)
Do you object to the 'of God' part?
do you count this the same? Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever: but upon David, and upon his seed, and upon his house, and upon his throne, shall there be peace for ever from the LORD.
Good point. You are actually showing how with God, there are those not counted as the seed of promise, though they certainly be seed by flesh. And so, the chosen seed of God and blessed children of Jacob by God, are the seed of David, which is Christ, which is His brethren grafted in. Not the unbelieving seed of flesh as that of Joab. (And Ishmael)
And who is this? Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.
You seem to be helping me again: now we have God making difference between cursed seed and seed of promise, even though the cursed seed is born of the promised seed by the flesh. Good stuff.
You see the pattern here? God's seed. The see of promise. The seed of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, and of Israel, and of Dasvid are that seed that was faithful to God as Abraham, and though there were seed of Abraham and Sarah born after the flesh, and so were of Israel after the flesh, they were not counted by God as being heirs of His promise, so that He even cast out and cursed many of them.
And at the cross, He cast them all out. Israel? No. David? No. Abraham? No. His people? No. the seed of promise? No. He cast out all seed born of flesh to be His seed of promise. They no longer have place nor right nor promise with God.
His seed and His Israel and His children of Jacob are now all true and pure seed of promise born not after the flesh, but after the Spirit: by the Redeemer out of Sion, all Israel is now Israel of God, and no Israel after the flesh is Israel of God anymore, but only Israel in name only.
You are combining two different verses for effect.
Why do you need to do that?
Much love!
It's not the same thing. Promised seed? You are again blending different ideas together for the effect of sounding right. At least that's how it seems to me.
I think we've about covered the material. You?
No, actually, He promised they would always be a nation before them. I think we are going in circles.
Much love!
Just the same . . . God promised something, but you are claiming He will not keep that promise for those to whom He promised.
Much love!
It's like saying, I'm going to give you $1,000,000. And then when the time comes, I say, "when I said 'you', I'm changing it to 'him', and not 'you'. Who received the promise? And who received what was promised? So again, if that is so, what value was the promise? What value are God's promises to us? Will He keep those?
You have left out the biggest word of all: If.
God's promise has always been conditioned. He has kept His promise of Abraham to the natural seed by flesh first, who believed as their father Abraham, and now He keeps that same promise to all the seed by faith in natural bodies. Them that first received the promises in Christ are yet among the dead in Christ.
None of the natural seed that believed not were ever to receive the promise, and never shall receive the promise, so long as they abide in unbelief and repent not: all natural seed on earth are now uncircumcision by sinful nature.
Is there circumcision in sight of God, that is outward?
In all this, perhaps there should be a discerning between what the things of God and the people of God according to His sight only, not according to man's.
What outward circumcision, what Jew that is outwardly, what people of promise by flesh, what children of Abraham counted for the seed because of flesh, is there on earth now, that is born of the flesh and not after the Spirit as Isaac was, and believes not Jesus?
I submit, that if such children of wrath are still children of promise, because of fleshy birth only, then indeed God's promise has been vain and hypocritical, because that would compel God to receive the wicked along with the righteous, that did and do abide faithful to the end.
The God of Israel and of the fathers and of Abraham and David owes absolutely nothing to a seed of flesh that abides in evil unbelief. He wsa already crucified because of them and for them, and now He is supposed to do even more 'for their sakes', because of their outward carnal birth?
And yet, because their fathers were beloved, being better than they, He does allow them to be grafted in again by faith, and does shine His grace upon them as well as upon all: the just and the unjust alike. Because He is that merciful, but not so unjust as to justify the guilty, because they claim a fleshy bloodline, that is still supposed to make them special to Christ above all others on earth.
Yes, the condition was that if the natural order of the sun and moon continued, so will Israel remain a nation before Him.
Much love!
But as you've pointed out, the plain statement made is that we are children of faithful Abraham, and not counted as children of Jacob, or the seed of Israel.
Fair enough, and I cannot tell how much I appreciate your disciplined and dogged effort to not accept something you are not convinced of. You are in fact helping me lots.
And so, you are speaking a a confirmed seed of Abraham by Scripture pertaining to promise, that is separate from the seed of Israel and children of Jacob:
That seed and children therefore are not of promise, nor of God, nor of Abraham, nor of Isaac, for the children of promise are also as Isaac was. (Gal 4)
Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them. (Jerem 33)
Here we have the seed of Jacob: the children of Jacob, the seed of Israel and children of Israel (unless Jacob and his seed are not that of Israel?).
That seed is the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. There are not two seeds of Abraham, but only one to whom the promises were made. (Gal 3:16)
They that are counted the seed of Abraham with promise are the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: the children of promise are the children of Jacob and of Israel, grafted into the green olive tree of the God of Israel, which He first planted in the flesh of Isaac, and now has planted forever after the Spirit in Christ.
And so all that seed of Jacob after the flesh was all cast away by God according to prophecy, to return captive once again, and re now the children of bondage by Hagar, and will only have their captivity turned in mercy this time by repenting and believing Jesus, not after birth of the flesh anymore, but after birth of the Spirit by faith.
Look at the whole passage . . .
Jeremiah 33:25-26 KJV
25) Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
26) Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
That'st the condition. And there is still day and night.
This was promised to those physical descendants of Jacob of whom you say werea cast out. But there is still day and night.
The clarity of this passage means more to me than logical arguments.
Much love!
That "return their captivity", that means to bring them back to their land.
Much love!
the NT gentile Christians become part of Israel
That's because none have. Which is because no Gentile is a Christian, which is because God has no Gentile people.
The terms you use, that are a product of prophesies of Scripture you believe, lead to you using those terms, that must be concluded according to your belief in prophecies.
All born after the flesh are all uncircumcision by sinful nature, become no longer uncircumcision with God, when God circumcises them inwardly by faith: Gentiles are still defined by Scripture as uncircumcision by nature.
BUt all them circumcised inwardly in the Spirit: These are called: the children of Abraham. The children of God. The children of promise as Isaac. The children by faith of Abraham counted for the seed of promise: the seed of Abraham to whom the promises were made, and so the seed of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob.
They are all the believers of Jesus grafted into the holy olive tree of the God of Israel, who planted His green olive tree in Isaac and called them the house of Israel and of Jacob.
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
There is only one seed of Abraham, which is Christ, which is born of the seed of God in the flesh:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever...Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
There is no place in the Bible though that specifically says ...Christians are the children of Israel of God.
The above conclusion of Scripture has four Aces in the hole: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Christ. Holding out for an unbelieving and yet rebellious seed of flesh to still be the promised seed and children of Israel of God, is a deuce of clubs, at best.
Christians are the heirs of the promises Christ made from the mount:
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. (Ex 19)
Those promises are now fulfilled in Christ: the Redeemer come out of Sion to the children of Israel:
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2)
Which is the fulfillment of the prophecy of Jeremiah:
Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
All the old seed after the flesh was concluded in unbelief, along with all Gentiles by nature: at the cross all flesh on earth were judged unprofitable and no good, no not one: there were no people of God and seed of promise on earth, while Jesus' body was in the grave, and His soul was by the Spirit in hell.
I.e. all people of flesh born on earth were not a people of God in time past: the time by span of three days. Now them that have mercy on them in Jeremiah, are them that have obtained mercy of God in Christ Jesus: the children of Israel of God.
There is no place in the Bible though that specifically says that the NT gentile Christians become part of Israel. This one place is debatable, hinging one whether it is the copulative or explicative use of "kai".
The only thing left unhinging is a Scripture stating plainly that all they grafted into the olive tree are grafted into the house of Israel, and the only thing that could unhinge it, is if that green olive tree called by god the house of Israel and of Jacob were not the olive tree of the God of Israel, that had their branches broken off, even as prophecies of that green olive tree of Israel, so called by God.
The children of Israel belong with children and seed of Jacob, which is seed and children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, of whom there is only One seed and children of promise: Christ.
Willing to say it as such is far from far fetched. Not willing to do so is suspicious at least.
Love you brother. You are certainly my greatest challenge ever. You don't just recite mantra learned, but only give what you have learned for yourself, and you are not easily moved away from it. That's why I appreciate you so much.
hinging one whether it is the copulative or explicative use of "kai".
Whichever one says that Christians are born into Israel of God and are His promised children of Israel by coming of the Redeemer out of Sion, I'll take that one.
(Hope it's not the 'copulative' one. Sounds sort of icky. But I'll take it if necessary)
It's just the way I learned the word. One use adds, copulative, John and the baker were talking together. One use explains, explicative, John, even the baker, was busy in his kitchen.
I read again through Romans 9-11 this morning. I still don't see how someone could make a case that Israel has been completely cast away.
Paul makes a big deal about how they are NOT cast away, and he continues to call those Israel who do not believe, showing the dual use of the word.
There are so many ways God could have said things to make it clear cut that the church is the new Israel, however, what I find to be clear cut, that WAS written, that says God will not cast them away, but that He's still going to save the remnent, both Old and New Testaments.
This remnant.
Romans 10:1 KJV
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Who did Paul have in mind here? Is this an expression that God will save all who will be saved, both Jew and Gentile? Or does he mean Israel?
Romans 11:5-7 KJV
5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
There is a remnant, of whom? Of Israel. A saved remnent of Israel. Why would they be called a remnant? That only preserves the fiction that the rest are still Israel, doesn't it?
But if there is a remnant, there is the nation of whom these are the remnant.
Israel is not saved, Israel hath not obtained that which he seeks for. Some did. The rest were blinded.
Romans 11:11-15 KJV
11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12) Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14) If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15) For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
And after talking about the nation of Israel, and a remnant from that nation, his own people, did Paul suddenly change gears on how he was speaking?
Romans 11:25-27 KJV
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
And so all Israel shall be saved! Yes! Every one of the people on earth who are to be saved will be saved! Hooray!!
Well, I mean, that IS good news, but is that the news Paul has been leading up to? All Israel shall be saved. That is, the believing remnant, but of Israel.
Zechariah 13:8-9 KJV
8) And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9) And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Much love!
This is what I'm hear for. This is the kind of testing my understandings need. I am very much appreciating your time and energy and learning!
Much love!
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