He is a Jew, He is not a Jew: the physical seed of promise

[robert derrick]

Your claim is that Israel's actions caused them to be cast off from God. Why would God do that?

Because god promised He would, and God keeps His promises.

But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people.

Israel of the flesh is now a by word and proverb on earth: just a catchword that means nothing to God, and only attracts the attention of them, that use it as a prop of false religion and misinterpreted prophecy of Scripture.

The Israel of God in natural bodies on earth are members of the body of Christ fulfilling prophesy of the last days Personally by Him at the cross with His death, burial, and resurrection:

Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[robert derrick]

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

So, there are they that are 'of Israel' but are 'not Israel'. Who are these that are of Israel but are not Israel: not children of Israel?

Children born of Israel, that are not Israel?

Are there any born of Christ, that are not Christian? No. Because there are no Christians, that are not born of Christ: all they that are of Christ, are Christ's.

Christ is the God of Israel, and since He did come as the Redeemer out of Sion, now all they born of Him are Israel of God: All of the Israel of God by Christ are Israel of God: All Israel of God is saved, because there are not any Israel of God, that are not born of the God of Israel.

Therefore, not all they born of Israel after the flesh, are Israel of God, except them born after the flesh that repent and abide not still in unbelief, and are grafted in again to the Israel of God.

Are there any of Israel after the flesh, that are not Israel of God? Yes, and so they are not Israel at all, neither children of Israel, because they are not Israel.

The Lord Jesus, the God of Israel is the perfect Master of analytical mathematics.

Not all of A is B, and B is greater than A, and not all of A is C, and C is greater than A, therefore B and C are the same.

A: Israel after the flesh
B: Israel of God
C: Body of Christ

There are A that are part of B and part of C.

Part of A does not remain blind, and the rest are blinded.

 

[robert derrick]

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Are there any that are Israel, that are not children of Israel? Are there any that are not Israel, that are children of Israel?

There are certainly those born of Israel after the flesh who are Israel, and so are children of Israel. There are certainly those who are born of Israel after the flesh who are not Israel and so are not children of Israel.

Those born of Israel after the flesh and are Israel, are born of Christ and are body of Christ.

Therefore, there are those who are Israel, who are body of Christ.

Therefore, there are children of Israel, who are Israel, who are members of body of Christ.

Therefore, there are members of body of Christ, who are children of Israel, that are Israel.

There are children of Israel, that are Israel, that are members of the body of Christ, and they are called Christians by God.

Are there any members of the body of Christ, born of the God of Israel, that are not Israel and children of Israel?

The Christ is divided.

Unless, there are Israel, that are not all children of Israel. And there are children of Israel that are not all Israel.

 

[marks]

I will cleanse you, a new heart I will give you, a new spirit I will put within you.

These are all those grafted into the green olive tree of God of Israel, by faith of Jesus in His New Covenant.

I would sooner say that this too was abrogated by Israel's rejection. This prophecy, I think all the prophecies of giving them a new heart have a timing consideration that doesn't allow them to be referring to the church, that being when God regathers them from the nations back to the land of Israel.

You are not suggesting that we have a land inheritance in the Promised Land, is that correct? That the Land Promises were for the 12 tribes? So that the Land grants to be made in the kingdom age, these are likewise abrogated? Would you agree?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'm wanting to refine your arguments to see where they lead.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Is there a seed of flesh still chosen of that Lord and God from the mount. He still chooses them for His own after His own death at their hands?

"Father, forgive them, they don't know what they are doing." Jesus asked for Amazing Grace, His dying prayer, ignored by His Father, instead to reject the lot of them.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So, in this allegory, who are the children of promise boran after the Spirit, and the children of bondage born after the flesh?

The Jews who are looking to Jesus, and the Jews who are looking to the Law. And the comparison follows towards all who would seek to be self-justified by their own good opinion of themself as the think they are "keeping God's Law", or, their conscience, or whatever it is people think they are doing when they think they are "making themself acceptable to God".

Much love!

 

[marks]

It's hard to fully bow out . . . Being a forum junkie! Oh! The warning again! "You must wait 8 second . . ."

 

[robert derrick]

I would sooner say that this too was abrogated by Israel's rejection. This prophecy, I think all the prophecies of giving them a new heart have a timing consideration that doesn't allow them to be referring to the church, that being when God regathers them from the nations back to the land of Israel.

You are not suggesting that we have a land inheritance in the Promised Land, is that correct? That the Land Promises were for the 12 tribes? So that the Land grants to be made in the kingdom age, these are likewise abrogated? Would you agree?

Much love!

Dare I say it? "I'm back" - Brother Marks

Welcome back brother. I'm glad, because once again you are pressing me. However, we agree that we will only answer each other according to the lens we are committed to see through:

from the nations back to the land of Israel.

No, from all earth wheresoever any uncircumcision of heart dwells, including them in the land they call the nation of Israel in name only.

They don't have to be rounded up from abroad. They are already there. (Unless they are on vacation elsewhere. Sorry, couldn't resist)

I.e. They are all scattered throughout earth and are all among themselves as uncircumcised strangers to God. There is no circumcised seed of promise. The Israel of God in Christ is circumcised people counted for the seed of promise.

 

[robert derrick]

I would sooner say that this too was abrogated by Israel's rejection. This prophecy, I think all the prophecies of giving them a new heart have a timing consideration that doesn't allow them to be referring to the church, that being when God regathers them from the nations back to the land of Israel.

You are not suggesting that we have a land inheritance in the Promised Land, is that correct? That the Land Promises were for the 12 tribes? So that the Land grants to be made in the kingdom age, these are likewise abrogated? Would you agree?

Much love!

You are not suggesting that we have a land inheritance in the Promised Land, is that correct? That the Land Promises were for the 12 tribes?

In Ezekiel 45:1, why are these tribes of Israel in the reign of the Lord dividing the land by lot? Didn't they already do that once before? They were returned physically from captivity of Babylon on earth, and there was no 'new' lot casting.

Also, the 12 tribes of Israel in Rev 7 during last great tribulation on earth, cannot possibly be referring to the 12 tribes of the seed of flesh, because then the Scripture would be in error, because the tribe of Dan is not named, which tribe of Dan certainly was named on one of stones of Aaron's breastplate. And so the carnal seed of promise cannot be that of Rev 7.

Now if any say God has changed a name from that written on stone to that sealed by the Spirit, then it proves the point: the name of Israel has changed pertaining to the manner of seed: from that of carnal birth to that born after the Spirit, as was Isaac.

James writing to the 12 tribes scattered abroad cannot possibly be written to Christians that are considered tribes of Israel by physical birth: that is a respect of persons, that would exclude all other Christians grafted in and born equally of Christ:

No Scripture of the New testament apostles of Christ is ever written to other than Christians. Period. Otherwise, we that are lesser in value, due to physical birth, would have no profit from them.

And so, since the resurrected God of Israel is writing to His 12 tribes scattered abroad, He is writing to His 12 tribes grafted in after His cross.

It would be helpful in all prophesy today, to write 'The risen God of Israel' in place of the God of Israel, and the Lord God, since at that time He was not the 'risen God of Israel', but now is. We should refer to Him as He is, not as He was.

The God of Israel has changed? Oh yes. Most certainly He has changed. Not in character of righteousness and true holiness and eternal life from everlasting to everlasting, but now being the man Christ Jesus, risen from the dead. That is a change indeed of Him that was the true God and Spirit from everlasting.

And so, the God of Israel being changed, then the covenant of the God of Israel is changed, and the people of the God of Israel is changed, from the seed of flesh before the cross, to the seed of promise by faith after His resurrection.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? (Deut 31:16-17)

So, who says the Lord God of Israel would not forsake the people that forsake Him. That God of Israel prophesied that all this people, not some, not in part, would forsake Him and break His covenant, which He made with them, and He would hide His face from them all, that they shall be devoured, even as all Lebanon would be hewn asunder, and all branches be broken off the green olive tree called by Him the house of Israel.

Here is an answer to a mystery: they were not all blinded and believed not that Jesus was the promised Redeemer come out of Sion, but they were all concluded in unbelief with the rest, when they all forsook Him at the cross,e ven as He prophesied:

Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. (John 16)

And they did not believe Him, and protested greatly against His Word: Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended. (Matthew 26)

It's really very simple: when God's people forsake Him utterly, and break His covenant completely, then He will forsake them, for they are not a people of promise nor covenant with Himself, but have made themselves uncircumcised strangers apart from Him.

There is no more greater forsaking and breaking, than that which was done with the God of Israel on the cross. That was utterly complete and totally finished as a people: God did not cast off Israel, nor His people, but He certainly has cast off them that prove themselves utterly to be not Israel and not His people. And He will do the same today, that abide not in Him. (John 15:6)(Rom 11:21)

Pretty simple, unless the vail of seed of flesh still accompanies interpretation of prophecy of Scripture.

Not with me. That all ended at the cross, where the God of Israel was crucified, and by his death, His covenant was utterly and completely broken with them.

He saw no light of moon, stars, nor sun in the grave, as no dead man does:

Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth...

What covenant did the Son of God have with such ordinances, while in the grave bodily, and in the heart of the earth by the Spirit? None. His Father which remained in heaven? Yes, He did, and so the sun adn the moon and the stars continued to shine. But not the Son. Not the Holy One of Israel, the Creator who made covenant with sun and moon and stars and Israel after the flesh, which were all broken, when that Son and God died on a cursed cross at the hands of His own creation.

 

[robert derrick]

I'm wanting to refine your arguments to see where they lead.

Much love!

So do I. Believe me brother, all things I have been writing for several days with all those posts filling pages, have all been because of your refining.

Now, you don't agree with the refining direction, but they are certainly because of YOU.

 

[marks]

So do I. Believe me brother, all things I have been writing for several days with all those posts filling pages, have all been because of your refining.

Now, you don't agree with the refining direction, but they are certainly because of YOU.

I'm finding the same thing, and I love being challenged like this. So upward and onward, and all things to edify! I've gotta run though, back tomorrow!

Much love!

 

[marks]

In Ezekiel 45:1, why are these tribes of Israel in the reign of the Lord dividing the land by lot? Didn't they already do that once before? They were returned physically from captivity of Babylon on earth, and there was no 'new' lot casting.

Because the geography is going to change, and the borders of Israel will expand greatly, and each will have a new alotment. The were by lot, but in the kingdom they are assigned by God in the Prophets.

They will be very different portions of land.

I see now you again wrote a lot, so, tomorrow.

Blessings!

 

[robert derrick]

Because the geography is going to change, and the borders of Israel will expand greatly, and each will have a new alotment. The were by lot, but in the kingdom they are assigned by God in the Prophets.

They will be very different portions of land.

I see now you again wrote a lot, so, tomorrow.

Blessings!

That casting of lots is in Ezekiel 45, and the only way that prophecy of promise to the captivity in Babylon is ever going to be fulfilled by God, is if He resurrects the old first covenant with the law of Moses and the priesthood of sacrifices for tresapasses and sin by blood of bulls and goats, for a seed of flesh that has remained on earth after the brightness of His coming:

And in the porch of the gate were two tables on this side, and two tables on that side, to slay thereon the burnt offering and the sin offering and the trespass offering. (Ezek 40:39)

God can do what he wants. Maybe they will be the ones doing all that burying for 7 years in the Valley of Hamongog.

But at this time, none of that covenant, priesthood, law, and seed have any effect nor promise from God. At this time, the only house and children of Israel of God are those grafted in by faith to be branches thereof: My people Israel is now the people of the risen God of Israel, the Lord Jesus. Not the God of Israel, the LORD Jehovah, who's name is no more mentioned in Scripture forever, after the name above all names is given to Him: Jesus.

And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." (Isaiah 62)(Matthew 1)

Even as He is no more called by His name Jehovah, so are that people He made covenant with Him, no more called His people, by His name Israel, which He first gave to Jacob as Jehovah, and now gives to all children of Israel by faith in Jesus.

All the rest are Israel in name only, and are all uncircumcised among the uncircumcised nations of the earth.

The risen God of Israel will not be returning to them specifically nor for them: He will be returning to receive His own unto Himself (John 14:3), after His own have been purified by temptation, deception, and finally persecution of the 1st and next beast. (Rev 13)

All uncircumcised on earth in that day, as is now, will be commanded to repent, even to the last hour of judgment, when the angel from mid-heaven preaches the everlasting Gospel of God, that of the cross, to all inhabitants on earth.

The only Israel and Jews on earth, that He will be coming for, are the Jews inwardly and His house of Israel by faith, which will be purged in like manner as that Israel after the flesh before the cross, only this time, there will remain an alive remnant of saints in Christ, to be resurrected with the dead in Christ, to meet Him in the air, and then destroy them at Armageddon with the brightness of His coming in true lightning war of the risen God of Israel: the wrath of the Lamb.

 

[marks]

That casting of lots is in Ezekiel 45,

Hmm! I'll need to relook at that!

Much love!

 

[marks]

That casting of lots is in Ezekiel 45,

Ezekiel 47:21-23 KJV
21) So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.
22) And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
23) And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 48:1-8 KJV
1) Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan.
2) And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher.
3) And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Naphtali.
4) And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh.
5) And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim.
6) And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben.
7) And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Judah.
8) And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it.

Ezekiel 48:23-29 KJV
23) As for the rest of the tribes, from the east side unto the west side, Benjamin shall have a portion.
24) And by the border of Benjamin, from the east side unto the west side, Simeon shall have a portion.
25) And by the border of Simeon, from the east side unto the west side, Issachar a portion.
26) And by the border of Issachar, from the east side unto the west side, Zebulun a portion.
27) And by the border of Zebulun, from the east side unto the west side, Gad a portion.
28) And by the border of Gad, at the south side southward, the border shall be even from Tamar unto the waters of strife in Kadesh, and to the river toward the great sea.
29) This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord GOD.

The territories are named starting in the northmost to be Dan, then each one assigned moving southward.

Different people conjecture different maps, but I think this is generally representative:

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

Romans 11 is traditionally taught as Paul defending Israel after the flesh as still being the seed and people of promise the God of Israel made to Abraham.

That isn't true. The purpose of God in Romans 11 is to refute the belief of the time, that those unbelieving Jews, that had the Lord of glory crucified, were condemned as reprobates forever. That their seed of flesh would be held guilty by birth for sins of the fathers, which is contrary to law of God.

For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul is stating the obvious: if we born of Israel after the flesh have no hope from the Redeemer who came out of Sion to us first, whom we all crucified with wicked hands, then why am I Paul received as an apostle of Christ to you?

He then clarifies the difference between the unbelieving that abide still in unbelief, and the remnant elect saved by grace, who repent and are grafted in again to the Israel of God by faith of Jesus, just as all uncircumcised on earth may believe and be grafted in without respect of persons, nor birth of flesh.

And the warning was to the natural uncircumcision not to be high-minded against the cast out branches, because we also can be broken off by unbelief, as were they all of old.

 

[robert derrick]

Ezekiel 47:21-23 KJV
21) So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.
22) And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
23) And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 48:1-8 KJV
1) Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan.
2) And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher.
3) And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Naphtali.
4) And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh.
5) And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim.
6) And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben.
7) And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Judah.
8) And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it.

Ezekiel 48:23-29 KJV
23) As for the rest of the tribes, from the east side unto the west side, Benjamin shall have a portion.
24) And by the border of Benjamin, from the east side unto the west side, Simeon shall have a portion.
25) And by the border of Simeon, from the east side unto the west side, Issachar a portion.
26) And by the border of Issachar, from the east side unto the west side, Zebulun a portion.
27) And by the border of Zebulun, from the east side unto the west side, Gad a portion.
28) And by the border of Gad, at the south side southward, the border shall be even from Tamar unto the waters of strife in Kadesh, and to the river toward the great sea.
29) This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord GOD.

The territories are named starting in the northmost to be Dan, then each one assigned moving southward.

Different people conjecture different maps, but I think this is generally representative:

Much love!

Looks good.

The risen God of Israel can resurrected blood sacrifices for sin and trespass and fill His physical temple service with a sinful physical seed of Abraham, no longer of Hagar, but of Sarah.

It just won't happen, until after He had set His feet on Mt Olivet.

For now, they are only the unbelieving physical seed of Abraham by Hagar, as Ishmael.

The beast will not be rising up against them, but against the saints of the Lamb to purify His church, even as He came to confirm His own, and they received Him not.

 

[marks]

The beast will not be rising up against them, but against the saints of the Lamb to purify His church, even as He came to confirm His own, and they received Him not.

Who is being attacked in this prophecy?

Zechariah 14:1-5 KJV
1) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Who is being commanded to flee?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Isaiah 34:1-6 KJV
1) Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2) For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3) Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4) And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5) For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6) The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

Why is there a sacrifice in Bozrah?

Isaiah 63:1-14 KJV
1) Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2) Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3) I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4) For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5) And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6) And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
7) I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8) For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9) In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10) But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
11) Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
12) That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
13) That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?
14) As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

It is to save His chosen people.

Much love!