He is a Jew, He is not a Jew: the physical seed of promise

[robert derrick]

Who is being attacked in this prophecy?

Zechariah 14:1-5 KJV
1) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Who is being commanded to flee?

Much love!

Obviously, the saints of the Lamb of God grafted into His green olive tree by faith, whether they be born uncircumcised Gentiles or born uncircumcised Israel after the flesh.

It is plain that the last great tribulation and persecution on earth against God's chosen people will be the saints of Christ, who wash their clothes in the blood of the Lamb, by abiding in the True Vine and being pruned and purified unto the end.

The falling away Paul spoke of (2 Thess 2:3) are them that are broken off by unbelief from His olive tree, even as the old seed of flesh was, when He first came out of Sion and was crucified. (Rom 11:21)

And all the unrepentant uncircumcised of the earth, whether born Gentile or Israel after the flesh, shall join in with the rifling and robbery, and rejoice in the Purim of the Jews' religion over the dead witnesses in the street of that Jerusalem: they all are called by God, Gog and Magog, whom the risen God of Israel shall utterly ruin with His return:

So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken...and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD. (Ezek 39)

What is come and is done, is the coming of the risen Redeemer out of Sion to receive His own unto Himself in the first resurrection of the dead In Christ, and them that are alive and remain, having fled from the dragon's last days of wrath upon the earth:

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (Rev 12)

And with their resurrection and rising into the air to meet with the risen Lord, they will then accompany Him in the brightness of His coming to miserably destroy them left behind and gathered together to make war with Him and His saints at Armageddon.

Perhaps Gog are the Gentiles of natural uncircumcision, and Magog are Israel after the flesh made uncircumcision.

 

[marks]

Perhaps Gog are the Gentiles of natural uncircumcision, and Magog are Israel after the flesh made uncircumcision.

Gog is, I think, a "prince", as in, the prince of Greece, and the prince of Persia. Gog is the prince of Magog.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And with their resurrection and rising into the air to meet with the risen Lord, they will then accompany Him in the brightness of His coming to miserably destroy them left behind and gathered together to make war with Him and His saints at Armageddon.

How can you know this will happen? Might God yet choose another people? How can you be certain?

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

Gog is, I think, a "prince", as in, the prince of Greece, and the prince of Persia. Gog is the prince of Magog.

Much love!

Yes, he is a prince,and perhaps unprinced by unprincely behavior, having once been the prince, having power with God: called Israel after the flesh,

And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end...Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him. (Ezek 21)

Thrice overturned, sort of like 666: the crown an ddiadem of promise was taken off the seed of flesh, that is called ISrael after the flesh, and is given to a better people with right to the tree of life (Rev 22:14), not by flesh, but by faith:

They who were a people, are not a people, and they who were not a people, are the people of God.

 

[robert derrick]

How can you know this will happen? Might God yet choose another people? How can you be certain?

Much love!

Nice move.

There is Scripture showing one change of people. Is there any showing another change?

But, whoever they would be, they would be the same by faith of Jesus, because they are saints by the faith of Jesus, and His covenant is with an everlasting Gospel that will never be changed: He will preach it forever by the marks of the cross in His resurrected body.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Rev 14)

And the dead in Christ will still be the same dead in Christ, until that resurrection in His likeness: Old Covenant and New Covenant saints, faithful and obedient to the end.

To change another people would require yet another covenant.

 

[marks]

Nice move.

There is Scripture showing one change of people. Is there any showing another change?

What Scripture showed any change coming when those prophecies were given?

Much love!

 

[marks]

To change another people would require yet another covenant.

Is that so? Cannot God do as He pleases? Must He please you?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Is there any showing another change?

Matthew 25:31-40 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

These do the required works, and for that, they are received.

Matthew 25:41-46 KJV
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

These do not do the required works, and for that, they are cast out to eternal punishment.

Salvation based on their works.

Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Is this different?

Much love!

 

[marks]

He will preach it forever by the marks of the cross in His resurrected body.

The Bible says nothing from this creation will be remembered, nor will it come to mind.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

Jesus provoked Israel after the flesh to jealousy: purposely laid opn their sin and hypocrisy, and removed any pretence of righteousness of God:

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. (John 15)

He enraged them to the point of having Him killed, so that they then undid any hope of promise of God as a seed of flesh, while also enabling the God of ISrael to be released of His promise to them by death:

They broke the covenant by transgression, and He broke the covenant by death.

Why? That the risen God of ISrael might bring in a better people of promise by faith, even as He gave the kingship of anointed Saul to a better neighbor than himself: David.

So do God to Abner, and more also, except, as the LORD hath sworn to David, even so I do to him; To translate the kingdom from the house of Saul, and to set up the throne of David over Israel and over Judah, from Dan even to Beersheba.

The cross was the door of translation from seed of flesh to that of promise.

Sort of like Eastwood in Gran Torino, when he pointed an empty hand at them to provoke them to murdering him in cold blood, that by transgression they would be permanently put away from the innocent.

 

[robert derrick]

What Scripture showed any change coming when those prophecies were given?

Much love!

Good question. Thanks.

And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end...Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him. (Ezek 21)

Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies, that I might destroy them that hate me. They looked, but there was none to save; even unto the LORD, but he answered them not. Then did I beat them as small as the dust of the earth, I did stamp them as the mire of the street, and did spread them abroad. Thou also hast delivered me from the strivings of my people, thou hast kept me to be head of the heathen: a people which I knew not shall serve me. Strangers shall submit themselves unto me: as soon as they hear, they shall be obedient unto me. (2 Sam 22)

The God of Israel prophesying of His resurrection from the dead after the cross, where them that hated Him and crucified Him would be miserably destroyed from Him and His promise and covenant, which would be given to uncircumcised strangers that were not a people of God, but would believe and serve Him with circumcision of heart and bring forth His fruits in their season:

But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Them that hated Him had Him crucified, and thought to keep the vineyard for themselves, looked and found none to save them, for they had killed the Son.

So it is today, so long as they abide still in unbelief: there is none to save them from dying in their sins. The name of their uncircumcised nation called 'Israel', and calling themselves 'Jews' outwardly, does absolutely nothing for them before the risen God of Israel, Jesus Christ.

That God of Israel called Jehovah, with whom they had promise and covenant, died. Jehovah is no more named for the Lord God of Israel ever again. Not since His new name He prophesied of out of His own mouth was named Jesus:

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church. (Eph 1)

Where He says the Head of all things, He speaks of all things of God: now there is nothing of God, that is not the church of Jesus: no seed, no people, no promise, no covenant, no salvation, no justification...

The risen God of Israel is not Head over any seed of flesh on earth, no matter what name they give themselves: He is not the Head over the uncircumcised children of disobedience and wrath.

And He is the only Head over the things of God, that God has in heaven and in earth.

 

[marks]

Yes, he is a prince,and perhaps unprinced by unprincely behavior, having once been the prince, having power with God: called Israel after the flesh,

What I mean is an angelic power who has a jurisdiction.

Much love!

 

[marks]

They who were a people, are not a people, and they who were not a people, are the people of God.

Hosea 1:10 KJV
10) Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

The Bible says nothing from this creation will be remembered, nor will it come to mind.

Much love!

Not from this creation of heaven an earth, but certainly from the new creatures born of the Creator, while this heaven and earth remain.

And the marks and prints of the cross are in His resurrected body (John 20:27), and He is forever in heaven as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 5:6, 13:8), and He will continue to be that Lamb through eternity:

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him...

His resurrection and spiritual body will be the only one with marks of wounding, to always remind where we came from. Not with tears and sorrow, and grief, but with thanksgiving for ever. Afterall, becoming unthankful is a direct path to unholiness and ungodliness:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened...For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy...

Even in resurrected immortal and spiritual bodies, God will never let anyone ever forget the cost. Not to condemn, but to ensure thankfulness forever.

 

[robert derrick]

What I mean is an angelic power who has a jurisdiction.

Much love!

You've got me here. I'm not much on 'angelic power' etc... So you'll have to instruct me.

What it be as the God of Israel called Jehovah is not the risen God of ISrael called Jesus, who's name is even above that of Jehovah, though they be God of Israel?

God does not change in character, etc...but the God of Israel: did He not change, when He became a man born of a woman, for the first time to be called Son of God and Jesus? And did He not further change, when He died and was buried and rose again, so that He is no more the God of Israel called Jehovah of old, but is now the risen God of Israel called the man Christ Jesus?

 

[marks]

And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end...Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him. (Ezek 21)

Where is the part about casting away Israel? This prince is going to lose his crown. But what of the nation?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies, that I might destroy them that hate me. They looked, but there was none to save; even unto the LORD, but he answered them not. Then did I beat them as small as the dust of the earth, I did stamp them as the mire of the street, and did spread them abroad. Thou also hast delivered me from the strivings of my people, thou hast kept me to be head of the heathen: a people which I knew not shall serve me. Strangers shall submit themselves unto me: as soon as they hear, they shall be obedient unto me. (2 Sam 22)

Same question.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

No rejection of Israel there.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Even in resurrected immortal and spiritual bodies, God will never let anyone ever forget the cost. Not to condemn, but to ensure thankfulness forever.

I think God is restoring us to innocence.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You've got me here. I'm not much on 'angelic power' etc... So you'll have to instruct me.

Daniel 10:12-14 KJV
12) Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13) But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14) Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Daniel 10:20-21 KJV
20) Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21) But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Daniel 12:1 KJV
1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Ezekiel 38:1-3 KJV
1) And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2) Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3) And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

Take a look . . .

Oh . . . and a correction, I had said prince of Magog, that was not correct. Gog is the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.

Much love!