He is a Jew, He is not a Jew: the physical seed of promise

[robert derrick]

Nah, the 'seed' of Israel never... became Gentiles; maybe lived like Gentiles, but they never became Gentiles literally.

Gentile: uncircumcised unbeliever that knows not God:

For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

They who were circumcised according to the law of Moses, and had the oracles of God, made themselves uncircumcised by crucifying the Lord, and abide still in unbelief, knowing not the God of Israel: Gentiles by definition.

Circumcise the fleshy covering of your mind, and you will be able to see prophecy of Scripture clearly.

The Redeemer out of Sion has come. Prophesies of His coming are fulfilled.

 

[marks]

I know that being forced to ditch our cherished prophecies is difficult. I probably spent as much time diving into those prophecies as you. But when Scripture plainly confronts us with a new mind on the matter, we either bow to Scripture and have a new mind, or we start digging a ditch of our own making to keep a prophecy of our own mind.

Yeah, a lot of people do this. But you don't need to make one part false to make the other part true, just to understand each in it's own right way that brings harmony.

My issue is with this notion that the Bible says this thing, but it doesn't actually mean it.

And for myself, I find that conflicts are harmonized with a correct understanding.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

Whew. Just get it all out there and keep nothing back.

While I agree with your 'humanist' logic on why there is no more physical seed of promise for God to return to, I don't agree with the everyone will be saved as by fire. That's works of ministry, not evil works of unbelief. (Unless of course our ministering is so corrupt, that it causes others to transgress God by it, which means we have crossed the line of simple error to that of actually defiling God's temple, and so we will be destroyed for causing others to destroy themselves. It's the same as Balaam who showed how to get the children of Israel to draw God's wrath by polluting themselves with strange women)

We are not of this world is good: Neither is God, and neither is His covenant, nor His name for His people and seed of faith: Israel.

That is where Scripture makes a distinct difference between them that are of Israel after the the flesh and outward circumcision, but are not Israel with God. Only them that are of Israel after the Spirit in circumcision of the heart are israel with God.

That does not make a physical vs spiritual Israel: what it makes is physical is no Israel at all, and no Jew at all, and the Israel with God is not just 'spiritual', even as Jesus came in the flesh, and was not just 'spirit, but rather Israel is now only by seed of God in natural bodies by faith of Jesus, which is the seed of God.

also you are right: nothing matters but being washed in the blood and seeking after signs of His return is of the flesh. And these 'disputes' are mostly intellectually desired, as well as interpretation of Revelation.

However, even in such areas there is profit and benefit in life, afterall much of how we conduct ourselves is based on how we are called, including the name of our calling. Likewise, they are blessed that read and understand the words of prophesy (Rev 1), and so it is not all just esoteric intellectualism.

@marks There is also the church, as well as Jews and Gentiles: 1 Corinthians 10.32.

Great chapter there, Revelation 1.

 

[marks]

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

The seed of Israel will remain a nation before God as long as the sun and moon are in the sky. Not many nations, a nation.

Why would God not keep His promises? Aren't we counting on this same God to keep His promises to us?

Much love!

 

[marks]

@marks There is also the church, as well as Jews and Gentiles: 1 Corinthians 10.32.

Great chapter there, Revelation 1.

Not sure what you are saying there . . .

Much love!

 

[farouk]

Not sure what you are saying there . . .

Much love!

@marks I guess I was looking at it from a dispensational framework...

 

[robert derrick]

The correct meaning of the passage is that blindness has happened to part of Israel. Not part of the reason, part of Israel.

Much love!

That is an opinion, without Scripture to prove it.

But there is Scripture proving it must be 'part of the reason':

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all...for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin. (Rom 11,3)

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Rom 3:12)

All were judged guilty. None stood with Jesus in the end. They all turned back from Him. At time of the cross, the Scripture of prophecy was fulfilled, in that none on earth had the faith of God, nor did His will. And all they that had the profit of the oracles of God (Rom 3:1-2), had all become unprofitable to God.

Blindness happened to all Israel, when the Redeemer out of Sion came to the first as promised, and now all Israel is saved: all that are of Israel are not Israel, because all that are in Israel of God are saved by grace through the faith of Jesus. There are no more of Israel that are not Israel (Rom 9:6), as there persistently was, when the children of Israel were only born and circumcised after the flesh, but not of heart after the Spirit, as was Isaac. (Gal 4:28-31)

That old seed of promise by flesh is still beloved for the fathers' sake, even as any seed of flesh on earth, and so they can be grafted into the Israel of God, as all on earth can: by repenting and believing Jesus.

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Rom 9)

Are not the children of the promise, the seed of promise as Isaac was? Is not the seed of promise born after the Spirit and not after the flesh? Are not they born of the God of Israel, of Israel? What are the uncircumcised coming in to by circumcision of the heart in the spirit of Christ? Is not the holy olive tree of the God of Israel, the Israel of God?

If these questions are answered in the negative by proof of Scripture, then my conclusions are false. If not, or if not answered at all, then they stand true, and the natural conclusions from them are true.

No one has even tried to answer them, because they cannot be false. They are obviously true according to Scripture.

Giving up long-learned and earnestly sought for traditions of prophecy is for some impossible, so that even Scripture is not allowed to get in the way of them.

I am blessed. Only plain Scripture with plain meaning is all that matters to me: the truth of God and the doctrine and prophecy of God. And my own long studied favorite ideas must be done away, when God demands it by His Word.

 

[marks]

That is an opinion, without Scripture to prove it.

It's the way the verse is written.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That old seed of promise by flesh is still beloved for the fathers' sake, even as any seed of flesh on earth, and so they can be grafted into the Israel of God, as all on earth can: by repenting and believing Jesus.

Not grafted into Israel, rather, grafted into Abraham. Israel is the "natural branches", gentile nations are the "wild branches", neither is the tree.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

Not grafted into Israel, rather, grafted into Abraham. Israel is the "natural branches", gentile nations are the "wild branches", neither is the tree.

Much love!

gentile nations are the "wild branches", neither is the tree.

And them grafted into the holy olive tree are no longer wild in uncircumcision, but are now made holy branches of God in circumcision of the heart:

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

So, you confirm the holy olive tree of God is the Israel of God, which the natural branches being broken off from, can be grafted back into again.

And yet the uncircumcised by nature and wild branches are not grafted into that same olive tree of Israel?

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree.

Or rather, they partake of the root and the fatness of the olive tree of Israel, but are not really of that olive tree of Israel, but are actually of the olive tree of Abraham? As in, the children of God and of Abraham counted for the seed of promise are of the God of Israel in Abraham, but not of the Israel of God?

And where does Scripture speak of this 'olive tree of Abraham' as opposed the olive tree of Israel?

Obviously, you have no Scripture for what you are saying, because you did not provide any. No Scripture, no truth.

But, hey, you're at the least the first one to even try it. So thanks.

 

[marks]

You need a continued promise seed born after the flesh, and so you keep them 'alive' in your mind, even as they would keep themselves alive in God by their own strong delusion. And so you both wait for the Redeemer out of Sion to come to them first again, in order to fulfill your prophecies of Scripture.

You put words into my mouth, but not correctly. So you are discussing this with yourself. Enjoy! And the ad hominem doesn't help. It really saddens me that so many people write that way.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

You put words into my mouth, but not correctly. So you are discussing this with yourself. Enjoy! And the ad hominem doesn't help. It really saddens me that so many people write that way.

Much love!

I apologize. You're right. I should have asked you to clarify.

Do you confirm that the holy olive tree of God is the Israel of God?

Or are you saying the olive tree is Abraham and not Israel?

 

[robert derrick]

It's the way the verse is written.

Much love!

The Scripture can be read either way.

But other Scripture proves the way it must be read, which were not responded to, so it stands without objection.

Also,
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Israel did not obtain. Not 'some of Israel'.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The election that have obtained it by grace, are they who did not abide in unbelief and were grafted in again. The rest were and are still blinded.

And so the remnant of Israel at this present time are all they grafted into Israel after the cross.

Once again: all were concluded in unbelief.

 

[marks]

The Scripture can be read either way.

You'd have to show me an exegesis of the verse in Greek, because I'm just not seeing that. That "part" refers to reason? That's what you are saying, right?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Also,
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Israel the nation has not obtained. The elect obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Blindness has come to part of Israel.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I apologize. You're right. I should have asked you to clarify.

Do you confirm that the holy olive tree of God is the Israel of God?

Or are you saying the olive tree is Abraham and not Israel?

Abraham is the tree. We are grafted into Faithful Abraham.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

You'd have to show me an exegesis of the verse in Greek, because I'm just not seeing that. That "part" refers to reason? That's what you are saying, right?

Much love!

Yes, that is what I am saying. Also, I'm not a fan of 'going to the Greek', though I am well schooled in it, because I learned from my own mistakes, that we can dive deep into the original language, and surface again nowhere near what the simple translation says.

I have provided Scripture to show why I say 'in part' must refer to the reason, not the number.

The reason and main part of why they were broken off was simple: unbelief to the point of complete rejection and crucifixion of Christ.

The 'mystery' part is that of the church, that Jesus would then go on to build by faith and the Spirit, due to the old seed of promise's rejection of Him as Lord and Saviour.

The Redeemer's coming out of Sion in the person of Jesus as a man was the first and last time He would ever be coming solely or especially to any seed of man born after the flesh.

IN Rev 14, His gospel is being preached from mid-heaven at eh last hour of the last great tribulation in earth to all inhabitors thereof, not just to some select group or seed.

 

[robert derrick]

Israel the nation has not obtained. The elect obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Blindness has come to part of Israel.

Much love!

The elect are the remnant still obtaining by grace: which can only be after the cross. Not before.

None obtained the promise of God to Abraham pertaining to His seed called the children of Israel, by grace. And so none of Israel obtained it before the cross. All were concluded in unbelief, and so no obtaining at all.

And so, the elect by grace are the remnant saved by Jesus by grace of God through faith: the Israel of God.

 

[robert derrick]

Abraham is the tree. We are grafted into Faithful Abraham.

Much love!

Very interesting. Had never heard nor thought it. If it is truth by Scripture, then you have definitely undercut much of my conclusions.

And so obviously I must look at it in Scripture. If it is so, then according to my own words, I must change my own thinking of prophecy and bow to Scripture. In one way, I hope not, but in another I will gladly go on with surer knowledge.

Would you like to stab at this:

Is he a Jew that is one outwardly, but not circumcised inwardly?

Is there one circumcised inwardly that is not a Jew?

 

[marks]

Yes, that is what I am saying. Also, I'm not a fan of 'going to the Greek', though I am well schooled in it, because I learned from my own mistakes, that we can dive deep into the original language, and surface again nowhere near what the simple translation says.

Well put!!

I'm guess what I'm really saying is I'd sure need some convincing over that, because when I look at translations, and I look at the Greek, it just seems so plain to me.

Much love!