Hebrews 10:26-31

[Ferris Bueller]

why the focus on sin, you are supposed to be Christ centered not the flesh and sin.

Paul is focused on sin in his letters to the church. Paragraph upon paragraph of how the church is to live. Why?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

you are supposed to be Christ centered

Living for God in the power of the resurrection IS being focused on Christ.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And the teaching that the Christian must do this and that to remain saved is what

After all this time you still don't get the argument. You do works to confirm your calling and election, not secure your calling and election. Works show your saving faith, thus confirming that you are safe in Christ's hands through that faith. Dead faith shows the absence of saving faith and that you are not abiding safely in Christ and the Father.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

teaching that his getting saved is ultimately his watch, keep, and doing?

It is the responsibility of the person to trust and believe, through the gift of faith. That's not a works gospel. That's not a boast of self righteousness. Paul said so. Your righteous life, if you have one, is how you know you are trusting and believing in God and are saved.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Some people turn "watch, keep and doing" into "type 2 works salvation.

Some do, I suppose. But the proper understanding is, "watch, keep and doing" is the result of salvation and when purposely obeyed confirms one calling and election and shows you to be really saved and ready for the judgment at the return of Christ.

 

[Tong2020]

After all this time you still don't get the argument. You do works to confirm your calling and election, not secure your calling and election. Works show your saving faith, thus confirming that you are safe in Christ's hands through that faith. Dead faith shows the absence of saving faith and that you are not abiding safely in Christ and the Father.

Well, I would not have known that you are into doing this and that to remain saved if it did not come from you. If that does not mean that you are ultimately the one who keep and does what it takes to remain saved, I don’t know what else it is.

It’s very clear, you do works to confirm your calling and election. Do you not see what is wrong with that? That is what I would like for you to see. It is perhaps because your eyes are set on “you” than it should be on Christ. And not only I in this forum observed that. Set your eyes on Jesus and surely it will be different.

Tong
R1590

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Well, I would not have known that you are into doing this and that to remain saved if it did not come from you.

What you do is just the expression of your faith. If you don't express your faith in what you do you probably don't have faith. You have dead faith. Fake faith that can not save you. That's why the Bible exhorts us to do works, so we can know if we really have saving faith or not. That's called 'making your calling and election sure'.

What I just said above applies to whether you think you do your own trusting and believing (through the power of faith) or whether you think God does it.

 

[Tong2020]

It is the responsibility of the person to trust and believe, through the gift of faith. That's not a works gospel. That's not a boast of self righteousness. Paul said so. Your righteous life, if you have one, is how you know you are trusting and believing in God and are saved.

While you say that’s not a boast, what you say seems not like so. How can it be not a boast when you credit the man ~ trusting and believing, as though it was his doing, will, and power?

You said “It is the responsibility of the person to trust and believe, through the gift of faith.” What do you even mean by that?

Tong
R1591

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If that does not mean that you are ultimately the one who keep and does what it takes to remain saved, I don’t know what else it is.

Paul said believing and trusting in God is not a works gospel. He said there is no boast of self righteousness in believing and trusting in God.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You said “It is the responsibility of the person to trust and believe, through the gift of faith.” What do you even mean by that?

God shows you the gospel is true through his gift of faith. You choose whether you will retain that revelation and believe and trust in it, or discard it in unbelief.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

While you say that’s not a boast, what you say seems not like so.

Paul is the one who said it's not a boast to believe God. It's a boast to perform works of the law to earn justification and salvation and eternal life.

How can it be not a boast when you credit the man ~ trusting and believing, as though it was his doing, will, and power?

Because all you're doing is extending the hands of your heart to receive the free gift of justification and salvation and eternal life. It's not works to walk over to a Christmas tree and pick up your free gift. It doesn't cease to be a free gift if you don't sit on the couch and wait for someone to bring it to you.

Using the same analogy, it ceases to be a free gift when you refuse the gift sitting under the tree, not lifting a finger to receive it and shunning it when it's brought to you, and you go and try to manufacture the same gift for yourself, insulting the person who gave you that free gift and who left it under the tree for you to receive.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It’s very clear, you do works to confirm your calling and election.

Yes! That's what the Bible says! Maybe you don't like that because you think that means you earn your calling and election by doing works. That is not what it means. Even in your belief system works SHOW you to be saved, not MAKE you to be saved by earning it. I'm actually agreeing with these particular tenants of your Calvinist teachings. I just don't agree with the part about you not having any control over whether you believe or not.

 

[Tong2020]

What you do is just the expression of your faith. If you don't express your faith in what you do you probably don't have faith. You have dead faith. Fake faith that can not save you. That's why the Bible exhorts us to do works, so we can know if we really have saving faith or not. That's called 'making your calling and election sure'.

What I just said above applies to whether you think you do your own trusting and believing (through the power of faith) or whether you think God does it.

That’s your view I see. That’s pretty clear.

But my view is this. It is God who do good works through the Christian. And those works shows the faith that God gave the Christian, the faith through which God saves him.

<<<Fake faith that can not save you. That's why the Bible exhorts us to do works, so we can know if we really have saving faith or not.>>>

If one have fake faith, that sure is not the faith that comes from God. No amount of exhortation for him to do good works would change that to saving faith. For the faith through which one is saved by God is that which comes from Him and which He gives to him that He willed to have mercy to and saves.

Tong
R1592

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That’s your view I see. That’s pretty clear.

But my view is this. It is God who do good works through the Christian. And those works shows the faith that God gave the Christian, the faith through which God saves him.

<<<Fake faith that can not save you. That's why the Bible exhorts us to do works, so we can know if we really have saving faith or not.>>>

If one have fake faith, that sure is not the faith that comes from God. No amount of exhortation for him to do good works would change that to saving faith. For the faith through which one is saved by God is that which comes from Him and which He gives to him that He willed to have mercy to and saves.

Tong
R1592

In just doing a fast read here, I don't see anything I don't agree with here! This is going to be tough for you to handle (I'm just going to come right out and say it) but most Christians simply can not fathom any teaching outside of their own. That's why you can not understand what I say, even when I agree with you. I'm not being snarky. It's just the way it is. I used to be that way to some extent, too.

 

[Tong2020]

What you do is just the expression of your faith. If you don't express your faith in what you do you probably don't have faith. You have dead faith. Fake faith that can not save you. That's why the Bible exhorts us to do works, so we can know if we really have saving faith or not. That's called 'making your calling and election sure'.

What I just said above applies to whether you think you do your own trusting and believing (through the power of faith) or whether you think God does it.

<<<What I just said above applies to whether you think you do your own trusting and believing (through the power of faith) or whether you think God does it.>>>

How would you see what I will say here when we seem to have different eyes? Hmmm...

God saves the man through faith. Faith here is not that which comes from man but that which comes from God which he gives to the man He willed to give mercy and save.

When God willed to give mercy to a man and save him, will He not accomplish it? Of course He will. Do you think that the idea that it is up to the man whether to choose to be saved or not, would fit with the certainty that God will accomplish saving the man? No sir. So, it is all God’s work to be certain that it will be accomplished. Now, that is not to say that God does the believing for the man. No sir. The man is still him who will believe. And how is that? I’d like to give you time to ponder on that.

Tong
R1593

 

[justbyfaith]

“ Turn to Me, with Faith in Jesus Christ and I will SAVE you to the UTTERMOST.”

Even from your sins (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:14).

the Unregenerate man May mistakenly think that “ giving up Sin “ is the way to become “ fit for heaven”.... nope,

It most certainly can help...

Psa 50:23, Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.

nope, Resting in the Gospel Of 1 Cor15:1-4 , putting your TOTAL TRUST in the Blood Of Jesus is the way to get to Heaven

No one who wants to keep a lifestyle of sinning is going to put their trust in the blood of Jesus.

Because the blood of Jesus sanctifies (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29) and cleanses from all sin (1 John 1:7).

I will,tell you for the last time....NOBODY is promoting Sin.....nobody is “ desiring to keep their sinful lifestyles”

Nobody? I think that there are plenty of people who remain dead in their trespasses and sins in today's world...

I have told you many, many times that for me, sinning has all of the allure of sticking my hand in a fire.....so please, shut up about that lie about me

I was not saying it about you in particular...you are not the only one that I am preaching to on these boards.

or anybody else trying to turn God’s Grace into a License to sin....my New Heart does not want it, and without that “ New Heart” , you are “ None Of His” Anyway....

I do believe that "anybody else" may indeed latch onto your teaching as being a license for immorality...

However, make no mistake, to turn from sin is not necessarily turning to God.

Tong
R1578[~/QUOTE]


Truth be told ? It’s the very OPPOSITE!....

So, turning to God is to turn towards sin?

Do you believe that God is the devil?

Old Testament—— Again.

See 2 Timothy 3:16. The Old Testament was the only scriptures that the early church even had.

Know that the Old Testament is profitable for doctrine, therefore.

Either you are saved and you believe Him or you are not and you dont. And if you are not than all you will do is focus on trying to improve yourself,

Becoming improved is the goal of the real Christian who has been saved by grace through faith.

The question you wanted to answer by that is if repentance is the gospel the apostles preached? And it does not.

I believe that Acts of the Apostles 26:20 are the words of Paul...and he was an apostle.

 

[justbyfaith]

Not suggesting anything sir. What I’ve posted concerns Jbf. Go back and see. I’m pointing to him that preaching repentance or that repentance is not the gospel the apostles preached.

Tong
R1583

And @Ferris Bueller was pointing out to you that that position is faulty.

It’s very clear, you do works to confirm your calling and election. Do you not see what is wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with that (see Matthew 7:21).

That's why the Bible exhorts us to do works, so we can know if we really have saving faith or not. That's called 'making your calling and election sure'.

Although, there are those who do good works, not because they have been saved; but because they are trying to earn their salvation or else prove that they are saved. And this is a faulty premise for doing good works. Because people can do good works and yet not be saved. They may be doing their good works for the wrong reasons.

When God willed to give mercy to a man and save him, will He not accomplish it? Of course He will. Do you think that the idea that it is up to the man whether to choose to be saved or not, would fit with the certainty that God will accomplishing saving the man? No sir. So, it is all God’s work to be certain that it will be accomplished.

It just seems to me that your doctrine results in the concept that the Lord arbitrarily chooses some people out for the lake of fire. Because if man has nothing to do with his salvation (his response is based on whether God really extended grace to him), then if God does not extend grace to someone, they are not saved; and this is entirely the choice of the Lord. Therefore some are chosen out by God for everlasting damnation through no fault of their own.

My Bible tells me that God is love, however.

Your doctrine is inconsistent with the concept that God is love.

God's love will never fail to give every man a choice as to whether he will choose righteousness and be fit for heaven or whether he will reject the means of righteousness (faith in Christ) and end up in hell.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Blood Bought 1953,

Tell me please, is the following part of a FALSE and PERVERTED gospel?

Bear fruits worthy of repentance...

for the axe is laid to the root of the trees.

 

[Tong2020]

Paul said believing and trusting in God is not a works gospel. He said there is no boast of self righteousness in believing and trusting in God.

And no nobody is saying that believing in God is a works gospel.

Tong
R1594

 

[justbyfaith]

And no nobody is saying that believing in God is a works gospel.

Tong
R1594

There are those who teach that putting your faith in Jesus is the same as works; especially when you get into the realm of Calvinistic teaching.

When religionist make faith or repentance or anything else for that matter conditions man must meet in order to get saved or justified before God they are introducing works into the equation. These acts or human actions become equal determinants for Salvation/Justification which robs Christ of His Glory and gives prideful man an occasion to boast !8

No; for faith and works are mutually exclusive (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:6 (kjv)).