"Hell doesn't last forever"..God is merciful

[StanJ]

Oz,
My point was that there are very many “NT Greek distinguished exegetes“ who don’t agree with you and R C H Lenski and that - for all you and I know - one side may be as prone to eisegesis as the other.
I tried to explain at great length why I don’t think the translation of “"αἰῶνας αἰώνων” makes much of a difference to my arguments against the necessity of hell being full to the brim.
One thing I think all scholars agree upon is how to translate “πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν“, which - for example - is repeatedly used in 2.Cor. 15:20-28. If there is a single Greek text in which this word is used in another sense but “all”/”everything” please point me to it. So what do you make of verses like “22 For as in Adam all die, so also in the Messiahwill all be made alive.”? or “28 But when everything has been put under him, then the Son himself will also become subject to the one who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all”?

I disagree with you on this issue. The majority of Greek Scholars concur on the translation as it is rendered in most modern English translations. If it's not enough for you to stereotype, you must show where your assertion is proven by naming those exegetes that disagree with the norm, otherwise all you're doing is opining without any support or corroboration.

 

[kerwin]

It's not an insult, it's the truth, it's exactly what the issue is with this member. There really is no other logical explanation.

It is an insult, as I know from personal opinion.

You lack communication skills and I see no evidence that you bother testing anything you believe. That is all on you; so I except for my hope you will repent it is nothing to me.

 

[StanJ]

It is an insult, as I know from personal opinion.
You lack communication skills and I see no evidence that you bother testing anything you believe. That is all on you; so I except for my hope you will repent it is nothing to me.

And this is typical of the type of responses you post when confronted with your own shortcomings. There's no use in me reiterating everything I've already posted. Take it or leave it, I don't really care.

 

[n2thelight]

Actually he does, and if you read Romans 8:29, you'll see that.
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Those are the elect whom were chosen from the foundation of the world...All are not of the elect,being saved does not make you an elect....The elect were justified in the first earth age,all others have free will,and God does not know their choice...

 

[Born_Again]

Those are the elect whom were chosen from the foundation of the world...All are not of the elect,being saved does not make you an elect....The elect were justified in the first earth age,all others have free will,and God does not know their choice...

Not saying you are wrong, but if God knows everything, then how could He not know who will choose salvation?

 

[StanJ]

Those are the elect whom were chosen from the foundation of the world...All are not of the elect, being saved does not make you an elect....The elect were justified in the first earth age,all others have free will,and God does not know their choice...

Scripture doesn't say that, that is a misconception popularized by Calvinism. The elect simply means those that are saved. There is no such thing as non elect in the Bible... they are simply called sinners.

 

[OzSpen]

Sorry to hear about your appliance troubles. Hope you get it fixed on the cheap.
That said, it's really a silly analogy. Is an oven that can't execute all the necessary operations of an oven really an oven or just a pile of useless, dead refuse?

Here's a BETTER analogy, but one which agrees with my point of view:


Bulb + Electric Current = Light

Bulb - Electric Current = Darkness (non-existent Light, not Light that continues to exist on another plane or dimension)

Let's call a spade a spade. You didn't like my analogy of the oven that died because it demonstrated that death does not mean annihilation. It contradicts your annihilationist theology.

Then you give what you think is a 'better analogy' but it says not a word about a bulb that died. Not a word. If you had said that you blew the lamp and it no longer works, I'd be able to agree that your bulb died, but it was not annihilated. It would be experiencing unlimited uselessness, but it was still in existence.

Death does not mean annihilation for the wicked. 'For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it' (Eccl 12:7 NLT).

Oz

 

[kerwin]

And this is typical of the type of responses you post when confronted with your own shortcomings. There's no use in me reiterating everything I've already posted. Take it or leave it, I don't really care.

You often say things that apply to you and not to those you are writing.

For instance I realize your skill at English is poor and in attempt to hide that you accuse me of it in hopes of lowering me and so making yourself feel better. It is bullying and so a sign of insecurity and lack of faith. It is the later as you fail to realize we are what we are by the grace of God.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,
My point was that there are very many “NT Greek distinguished exegetes“ who don’t agree with you and R C H Lenski and that - for all you and I know - one side may be as prone to eisegesis as the other.

And you give me no examples. Not one! 'One side may be prone to eisegesis' needs to be demonstrated. You have not done that. Assertions by you prove nothing.

I tried to explain at great length why I don’t think the translation of “"αἰῶνας αἰώνων” makes much of a difference to my arguments against the necessity of hell being full to the brim.

It has everything to do with the length of time for unbelievers experiencing eternal punishment - forever and ever, αἰῶνας αἰώνων, aeons of aeons.

One thing I think all scholars agree upon is how to translate “πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν“, which - for example - is repeatedly used in 2.Cor. 15:20-28. If there is a single Greek text in which this word is used in another sense but “all”/”everything” please point me to it. So what do you make of verses like “22 For as in Adam all die, so also in the Messiahwill all be made alive.”? or “28 But when everything has been put under him, then the Son himself will also become subject to the one who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all”?

This is an example of how you can't get a handle on and agree with 'ALL be made alive' does not mean that ALL will experience eternal blessedness. ALL being made alive applies to when ALL are resurrected to then experience their eternal destinies permanently. You can do the extensive reading of the Greek lexicons on the meaning of πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν (i.e. pas, pasa, pan). Giving the lexicon meaning is not the sole way to determine meaning. What it states in context is critical.

Oz

 

[kerwin]

And you give me no examples. Not one! 'One side may be prone to eisegesis' needs to be demonstrated. You have not done that. Assertions by you prove nothing.

..

No example needed as the following words are true and thus you know many practice eisegesis and few do not.

Matthew 22:14 American Standard Version (ASV)

14 For many are called, but few chosen.

It does not reveal who is wrong on any particular tenet but inductive reasoning informs us that more tenets one has in common with the majority the more likely one's whole doctrine is wrong.

 

[OzSpen]

No example needed as the following words are true and thus you know many practice eisegesis and few do not.


It does not reveal who is wrong on any particular tenet but inductive reasoning informs us that more tenets one has in common with the majority the more likely one's whole doctrine is wrong.

Examples ARE needed and YOU need to demonstrate that they practised eisegesis.

 

[StanJ]

You often say things that apply to you and not to those you are writing.
For instance I realize your skill at English is poor and in attempt to hide that you accuse me of it in hopes of lowering me and so making yourself feel better. It is bullying and so a sign of insecurity and lack of faith. It is the later as you fail to realize we are what we are by the grace of God.

More deflection....this is the last resort for people like you that have been found out and yet refuse to admit it.
I haven't seen anyone agree with you take on ANY scripture.

 

[StanJ]

No example needed as the following words are true and thus you know many practice eisegesis and few do not.
It does not reveal who is wrong on any particular tenet but inductive reasoning informs us that more tenets one has in common with the majority the more likely one's whole doctrine is wrong.

Just another example of how you continually deny the evidence before you and accuse others of doing so with NO evidence while using grammatical terms you don't really understand.
Oz has a Ph.D. in theology and knows far more than you ever could. How long have you been a Christian?
Inductive reasoning is never used in the Bible because the Bible only has one truth and that is God's truth.
Regardless of what many may believe there is only one truth in the Bible and it is up to us to discover the truth based on what the Bible teaches about it, not what people reason themselves.

 

[n2thelight]

Scripture doesn't say that, that is a misconception popularized by Calvinism. The elect simply means those that are saved. There is no such thing as non elect in the Bible... they are simply called sinners.

I'll use Paul as an example,why did Christ interfere in his (Pauls)life?

Being saved does not make you an elect,the elect have already been justified...

Think you need to do a study on who are the elect,heck I'll help you


Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.
Have you ever wondered why you do the things that you do, at times. It's just like you have a destiny. You have always felt their is more to life, and this world, then what you have been taught. Paul addresses this in Romans 8:27. In verse twenty six it says that there are times in your life when the Holy Spirit makes intercession for you because you don't even know what to pray for.

"And he that searcheth the heart knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27 These saints are "the set-aside ones", or "the chosen". God has a overall plan, and a purpose in that plan just for you. That purpose is to bring back His children to Him; after that overthrow, and in this earth age.

Why would God intercede in a person's life, without them even asking? When your free-will goes against God's purpose for your life, God will intercede. When Paul's "free will" was to destroy all Christians, God's will was to take this highly educated man, and use Paul as the instrument for Him. Paul used to same drive to destroy Christians, that he used later to convert people, after his conversion.
We read that the Lord said; "...For He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and Kings, and children of Israel:" Acts 9:15

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"
"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5
"Sanctified" thee, is to "set aside, or apart for a purpose". Sins still have to be repented, and the price to pay for them still had to be made. To the predestined, and fore chosen, God can make life so miserable to those out of His will that they will repent. God has a perfect will, and God is always fair.

"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This verse is directed to a certain people, with a condition attached. This applies to "them who are called according to His purpose." "His purpose" is called God's plan, and God's overall plan is the offering of Salvation to all. That plan includes the teaching of God's Word; to plant seeds to convict; to live our life for Him; and to go and speak where God leads you. God will use you as it pleases Him.
"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29 God knew you, and what you were in that first earth age; and then [in that first earth age] God prearranged our destiny for this age. That destiny is to make us conform, or be like His Son, Jesus Christ. Though Jesus is the first fruits to overcome death, there are many that have that victory over death, through Christ's death and resurrection.

"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called: He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30 "Justified" means"judged" in the Greek text; God judged them there in that first earth age, and that is why God can and does intercede in the chosen's ones lives. The justified are the priests of the Zadok in the millennium age of Ezekiel 40, for the word Zadok comes from the Hebrew word meaning "the just".

Certain of God's children stood against Satan in the first earth age, and those that did stand, and did not follow Satan; God judged [justified], and He "chose" them then to be used in His eternal plan. Through God's perfect plan, God "predestined", and "ordained" each of them to His purpose to be used in this flesh age. Each of these will also be used in the Millennium age as priests, or called the "Zadok".
When you become a Christian, and God has given you a working over, He is trying to wake you up. God is calling out a people, His people, the "Elect-chosen, and predestined" to stand against the Antichrist [Satan] in this final generation.

http://www.theseason.org/ephesians/ephesians1.htm


If you still can't see ,just put it on the shelf,mayme someone else reading this will..............

 

[kerwin]

Examples ARE needed and YOU need to demonstrate that they practiced eisegesis.

Sorry, Jesus establishes a base line for humanity as a whole.

Most experts ignore things they find using with exegesis because they are the many and not the few and they need no other reason.

Exegeses is a big word that is probably used by some to make its practitioners look important when it is often practiced to some degree or another by anyone that actually studies Scripture. The historical principle is possibly the most one that is practiced to the least extent.

The ball in your court since you have to prove that any particular expert is one of the few and not one of the many out to lead others astray in the lack of understanding.

 

[kerwin]

More deflection....this is the last resort for people like you that have been found out and yet refuse to admit it.
I haven't seen anyone agree with you take on ANY scripture.

Please use a dictionary before you misuse words you fail to understand.

Deflection:

a turning aside or off course

Did I do that? No!

Are you doing it in your post? Yes

What is the evidence convicts you? You did not address my point.

What is the evidence that vindicates me? I did address the point I wanted to.

So choosing not to use a dictionary has placed you in an embarrassing situation which you have a tradition of handling poorly. So why not just use a dictionary or better yet "be slow to speak and quick to listen" as someone I respect advises.

 

[OzSpen]

The offer to receive eternal life as opposed to suffering everlasting destruction is what the gospel of Christ is all about. We see this plainly expressed in this passage:


2 TIMOTHY 1:10
But [God’s grace] has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”

Notice that life and immortality are only available through the gospel. What exactly is “the gospel?” The gospel literally means “good news.” Its main message is summed up in the famous passage John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Note, once again, what is clearly being contrasted in both of these passages:

In John 3:16 perishis contrasted with the gift of eternal life; in 2 Timothy 1:10death is contrasted with both immortality and life, which are said to be made available through the gospel. If the eternal torture doctrine were true, these verses would be contrasting eternal life and eternal life being tortured, or immortality and immortality in fiery torment. I realize this sounds absurd, but the Bible would certainly speak in such honest, blatant terms if this teaching were true. Do you seriously think that God would be misleading or ambiguous about such an important issue in his Holy Word?

The reason the Bible doesn’t speak in such ludicrous terms is because this doctrine of eternal conscious torment in not a biblical teaching. The above passage, 2 Timothy 1:10, makes it plain that until Jesus was raised for our justification, the power of death was not destroyed and therefore immortality was not available to us — life was not available to us. This is because we are all sinners (see Romans 3:23 and Ecclesiastes 7:20) and consequently all deserve death, “for the wages of sin is death.” God cannot overlook this because he is perfectly just. One person cannot pay the penalty for another because both are sinful and deserve death. The only way we can escape this imminent death penalty is if a sinless person, who does not deserve death, dies in our place.


So what did God do? Because he so loved the world and didn’t want anyone to perish, he gave his Son as a sin sacrifice in order that we may have the gift of eternal life. The difference between wages and a gift is that wages are earned while a gift is free. Jesus paid the death penalty that we’ve all earned so that we can have the free gift of eternal life. The LORD did this so that we could fellowship with him forever instead of reaping the wages of sin, which is death.

This fact that God Himself wants to have a relationship with us explains why the gospel is also referred to as “the message of reconciliation” (2 Corinthians 5:17-21). ‘Reconciliation’ means to turn from enmity to friendship. The gospel is good news indeed because, not only does it grant eternal life to those who accept it, but, more importantly, it enables us to have a relationship with the Creator of the universe!

Notice what John the Baptist declared would happen to those who reject the gospel:

JOHN 3:36
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”


The passage could not be plainer: those who reject the Son “will not see life.” God’s word is absolute, and this is an absolute statement: Those who reject Jesus Christ will not see any life at all. This includes even a sadistic life in roasting agony for all eternity. Such people will be justly-but-mercifully put to death, absolute death, for this is the wages of their actions. But our loving Creator doesn’t want anyone to perish like this; he has provided a way to eternal life through his Son, Jesus Christ.
Do you see the simple, beautiful, clear message of the gospel here? God is just trying to save his beloved fallen creation, humanity, from the wages of sin. Ezekiel 18:32 reveals the heart of God well on this matter: “ ‘For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone,’ declares the Sovereign LORD, ‘Repent and live!’ ”




n2thelight,

You have plagiarised this material again from: http://www.hellhadesafterlife.com/hell/annihilationism-traditionalism-problem-hell

Do you know what plagiarism is? It is stealing somebody else's material without giving them credit. That's exactly what you have done here.

Why do you continue to engage in theft of material? This is not your own work!

Oz

 

[Born_Again]

After review and consideration over the past few days, I have decided to close this thread. I think points and counterpoints have been made and no further progress can be made.


THREAD CLOSED!

Thanks!

BA