Hell Is Not The Lake of Fire

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

mark s

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
444
20
0
If an unsaved person were to read this i suspect they would come away wondering if any word in the bible means what it says...Matt 25,26 was quoted containg the the phrases eternal punishment and eternal life...ETERNAL life last for ever while ETERNAL punishment is temporary....no wonder so many mock and ridicule modern Christianity.

Hi Strat,

To me, that's the real problem with these sorts of things. The take-away value is, "you can't believe what you read in the Bible." It's so plainly stated, and even when you study it in-depth, it remains plainly stated, yet people are being told, Well, it SAYS that, but it doesn't really MEAN that.

Matt. 25:46

εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον
. . .Punishment eternal . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Life Eternal

How simple can it be?

The "Jehovah's Witnesses" claim this "punishment" is actually destruction.

I'll let Albert Barnes answer to that one:

Into everlasting punishment - The original word translated here as “punishment” means torment, or suffering inflicted for crime. The noun is used but in one other place in the New Testament - 1Jo_4:18; “Fear hath ‘torment.’” The verb from which the noun is derived is twice used - Act_4:21; 2Pe_2:9. In all these places it denotes anguish, suffering, punishment. It does not mean simply a “state or condition,” but absolute, positive suffering; and if this word does not teach it, no word “could” express the idea that the wicked would suffer. It has been contended that the sufferings of the wicked will not be eternal or without end. It is not the purpose of these notes to enter into debates of that kind further than to ascertain the meaning of the language used by the sacred writers. In regard to the meaning of the word “everlasting” in this place, it is to be observed:
1. that the literal meaning of the word expresses absolute eternity - “always belong,” Mat_18:8; Mat_19:16; Mar_3:29; Rom_2:7; Heb_5:9.
2. that the obvious and plain interpretation of the word demands this signification in this place. The original word - αἰώνιον aionion - is employed in the New Testament 66 times. Of these, in 51 instances it is used of the happiness of the righteous; in two, of God’s existence; in six, of the church and the Messiah’s kingdom; and in the remaining seven, of the future punishment of the wicked. If in these seven instances we attach to the word the idea of limited duration, consistency requires that the same idea of limited duration should be given it in the 51 cases of its application to the future glory of the righteous, and the two instances of its application to God’s existence, and the six eases of its appropriation to the future reign of the Messiah and the glory and perpetuity of the church. But no one will presume to deny that in these instances it denotes unlimited duration, and therefore, in accordance with the sound laws of interpretation and of language itself, the same sense of unlimited duration must be given it when used of future punishment - Owen, in loc.
3. that, admitting that it was the Saviour’s design always to teach this doctrine, this would be “the very word” to express it; and if this does not teach it, it could not be taught.
4. that it is not taught in any plainer manner in any confession of faith on the globe; and if this may be explained away, all those may be.
5. that our Saviour knew that this would be so understood by nine-tenths of the world; and if he did not mean to teach it, he has knowingly led them into error, and his honesty cannot be vindicated.
6. that he knew that the doctrine was calculated to produce “fear and terror;” and if he was benevolent, and actually used language calculated to produce this fear and terror, his conduct cannot be vindicated in exciting unnecessary alarms.
7. that the word used here is the same in the original as that used to express the eternal life of the righteous; if one can be proved to be limited in duration, the other can by the same arguments. “The proof that the righteous will be happy forever is precisely the same, and no other, than that the wicked will, be miserable forever.”
8. that it is confirmed by many other passages of Scripture, 2Th_1:7-9; Luk_16:26; Rev_14:11; Psa_9:17; Isa_33:14; Mar_16:16; Joh_3:36.
Life eternal - Man by sin has plunged himself into death, temporal, spiritual, eternal. Christ, by coming and dying, has abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light, 2Ti_1:10. “Life” is the opposite of death. It denotes, here, freedom from death, and positive holiness and happiness forever.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Albert Barnes (1798-1870)

But knowing that this will not answer anyone contrary, I am not planning on debating this point.

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
It's like I said, some would rather keep their pet doctrines instead of actually disciplining themselves in God's Word to get understanding.

The Psalms Scripture MUST be reconciled, including the Rev.14:11 Scripture which declares it's the "smoke" of their torment that rises for ever and ever, not their torment.

Until then, let's see how many ways the unlearned can push pet doctrines of men.
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
It's like I said, some would rather keep their pet doctrines instead of actually disciplining themselves in God's Word to get understanding.

The Psalms Scripture MUST be reconciled, including the Rev.14:11 Scripture which declares it's the "smoke" of their torment that rises for ever and ever, not their torment.

Until then, let's see how many ways the unlearned can push pet doctrines of men.

Actually in the Greek it's not for ever and ever it's for an age. :)
 

mark s

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
444
20
0
In Rev. 14:11, the Greek reads, eis aionas aionon, translatable as, into ages of ages, or epochs of epochs. Interpretted easily as, Into the time periods that are made up of the time periods.

No stronger expression of eternity exists in Koine Greek, to my knowledge.

And the smoke of their
torment ascendeth up for ever
and ever: and they have no rest
day nor night, who worship the
beast and his image, and
whosoever receiveth the mark
of his name.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev14.pdf

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

mark s

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
444
20
0
Yes, its the smoke . . .

"The smoke of their destruction"

Is that what it says?

No.

"The smoke of their torment."

Same word used here, btw . . .

And it was given to them that they should not kill them, but that they be tormented five months. And their torment is as the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.
(Revelation 9:5 LITV)

Definitely not destruction.

love in Christ,
Mark
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

Not So Advanced Member
Jan 6, 2012
1,727
62
48
Yes, its the smoke . . .
"The smoke of their destruction"
Is that what it says?
No.
"The smoke of their torment."

For arguments sake lets say one age = 1000 years. Seems reasonable. Revelation 14:11 that you quoted says the smoke of their torment ascends into the ages of the ages. Ages then would = 1000 years times X; and an age of an age = 1000 ages (1000 x 1000 years), or 1 million years. Veteran's rationalizations become essentially meaningless when viewed in this light. And especially so when talking ages of the ages. That goes completely off the scale. For all practical purposes, that is forever.
 

mark s

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
444
20
0
We need to remember Biblical definitions. They aren't always the same as the way we commonly use words.

We argue that the wicked do not have eternal life. That is true. What did Jesus say?

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent. Eternal life is knowing God

But that does not mean that their soul, if you will, ceases to exist when their body ceases to exist.

Why, we would all agree, would we not, that a person's 'soul' continues to exist after their body, is that not so? But they do not know God. Eternal death.

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
For arguments sake lets say one age = 1000 years. Seems reasonable. Revelation 14:11 that you quoted says the smoke of their torment ascends into the ages of the ages. Ages then would = 1000 years times X; and an age of an age = 1000 ages (1000 x 1000 years), or 1 million years. Veteran's rationalizations become essentially meaningless when viewed in this light. And especially so when talking ages of the ages. That goes completely off the scale. For all practical purposes, that is forever.

It's your argument that's meaningless, since you haven't even begun to address the OT Scripture about the utter destruction of the wicked per the Psalms. So keep dreaming.
 

mark s

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
444
20
0
Ps 37:9-11
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
(KJV)

Ps 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
(KJV)

Ps 37:35-36
35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
(KJV)

The meek shall inherit the earth, but the wicked, not so much. You won't find them.

The wicked shall perish, and burn away.

The wicked have great power, but then he is gone, not to be found.

Speaking temporal states? Or eternal states? You'll find the meek on the earth, but not the wicked. Though the had much power, they will be be found.

These verses must be taken in conjuction with the other passages which speak about the fate of the wicked.

There is nothing here that overturns the clear meaning of clearly worded Scripture which speaks of the eternal torment of the wicked.

To the OP's topic, Yes, Hell (hades/sheol) is not the lake of fire. No, the lake of fire is not a "one time destruction event". It is a permanent place of suffering.
Try to avoid going there.

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

Not So Advanced Member
Jan 6, 2012
1,727
62
48
It's your argument that's meaningless, since you haven't even begun to address the OT Scripture about the utter destruction of the wicked per the Psalms. So keep dreaming.

Destruction does mean annihilation. That is where you err. The wicked will be fully aware forever of what they threw away.

Destruction does mean annihilation. That is where you err. The wicked will be fully aware forever of what they threw away.

Typo, Should read: Destruction does NOT mean annihilation. That is where you err. The wicked will be fully aware forever of what they threw away.
 

mark s

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
444
20
0
The meek shall inherit the earth, but the wicked, not so much. You won't find them.

The wicked shall perish, and burn away.

The wicked have great power, but then he is gone, not to be found.

Speaking temporal states? Or eternal states? You'll find the meek on the earth, but not the wicked. Though the had much power, they will be be found.

These verses must be taken in conjuction with the other passages which speak about the fate of the wicked.

There is nothing here that overturns the clear meaning of clearly worded Scripture which speaks of the eternal torment of the wicked.

To the OP's topic, Yes, Hell (hades/sheol) is not the lake of fire. No, the lake of fire is not a "one time destruction event". It is a permanent place of suffering.
Try to avoid going there.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Man, I had some typos too!

Corrections below:

The meek shall inherit the earth, but the wicked, not so much. You won't find them.

The wicked shall perish, and burn away.

The wicked have great power, but then he is gone, not to be found.

Speaking of temporal states? Or eternal states? You'll find the meek on the earth, but not the wicked. Though they had much power, they will not be found.

These verses must be taken in conjuction with the other passages which speak about the fate of the wicked.

There is nothing here that overturns the clear meaning of clearly worded Scripture which speaks of the eternal torment of the wicked.

To the OP's topic, Yes, Hell (hades/sheol) is not the lake of fire. No, the lake of fire is not a "one time destruction event". It is a permanent place of suffering.
Try to avoid going there.

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

mark s

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
444
20
0
Hi jiggyfly,

I'd like to think so! I've studied this topic fairly in depth. I've found that, the same as with a number of other doctrines in Scripture, that there is progressively more detailed revelation as Scripture continued to be written.

What do you have in mind?

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
Oh just to name a few.
20 Then times of refreshment will come from the presence of the Lord, and he will again send you Jesus, your appointed Messiah.21 For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Acts 3:20-21 (NLT)

True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful?4 Of course not! Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true. As the Scriptures say about him,

“You will be proved right in what you say, and you will win your case in court.”[2]
Romans 3:3-4 (NLT)

18 Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone.
Romans 5:18 (NLT)

32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
Romans 11:32 (NLT)

11 For the Scriptures say,
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God. ’”
Romans 14:11 (NLT)

9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure.10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth.
Eph 1:9-10 (NLT)


9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names,10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phil 2:9-11 (NLT)

19 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ,20 and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
Col 1:19-20 (NLT)

2 Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity.3 This is good and pleases God our Savior,4 who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.
1 Tim 2:2-4 (NLT)

10 This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
1 Tim 4:10 (NLT)

9 The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.
2 Peter 3:9 (NLT)

Here are a few scriptures that show Father's purpose and plan towards all mankind.
 

mark s

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
444
20
0
Oh just to name a few.
20 Then times of refreshment will come from the presence of the Lord, and he will again send you Jesus, your appointed Messiah.21 For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Acts 3:20-21 (NLT)

True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful?4 Of course not! Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true. As the Scriptures say about him,

“You will be proved right in what you say, and you will win your case in court.”[2]
Romans 3:3-4 (NLT)

18 Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone.
Romans 5:18 (NLT)

32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
Romans 11:32 (NLT)

11 For the Scriptures say,
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God. ’”
Romans 14:11 (NLT)

9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure.10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth.
Eph 1:9-10 (NLT)


9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names,10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phil 2:9-11 (NLT)

19 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ,20 and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
Col 1:19-20 (NLT)

2 Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity.3 This is good and pleases God our Savior,4 who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.
1 Tim 2:2-4 (NLT)

10 This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
1 Tim 4:10 (NLT)

9 The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.
2 Peter 3:9 (NLT)

Here are a few scriptures that show Father's purpose and plan towards all mankind.

Hi jiggyfly,

So . . . to be clear, you are saying that all mankind will be saved?

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

mark s

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
444
20
0
Yes, that's right, you weren't actually saying that, but it was the common thread!

:)

This then gets to the topic of God's "decretive will" compared to His "desired will".

What do you think about Romans 5 where it talks about our being reconciled to God, and then our receiving that reconciliation in Christ Jesus? What does it mean to "receive the reconciliation"? How does this compare to being reconciled but not having received the reconcilation?

Have God's enemies received His reconciliation?

Love in Christ,
Mark