Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?

[FaithWillDo]

I never said or implied that another is NOT a Christian. I just said that I don't believe one's salvation is at risk for believing that Jesus is a sadistic monster.

Dear Patrick1966,

I want to point out a truth that you are not presently 'seeing" about the church.

The only sin that leads to a called out believer's spiritual death is the sin of mixing their own "works" with faith. When this happens (not "if"), a called out believer will no longer be covered by Grace through Faith. They will no longer be a "Christian" because they are no longer following the straight way (faith alone) of Christ. They are following the crooked way of Satan. They have fallen from grace and are subject to the Law again. If Christ does not come to them a second time before they physically die, they will be resurrected to judgment in the Lake of Fire with the unbelievers.

The apostate church's Doctrine of Free Will is their foundational teaching of mixing works with faith. The apostate church uses that false doctrine to justify why they believe some people are saved and why others are not. They don't understand that salvation comes solely from Christ doing His spiritual work within a person. Until Christ comes to a person and does that work, no person will have an ability to accept Christ as their "Lord". No amount of the person's supposed free will ability can change it. Christ must do His spiritual work within them first and Christ will do that work without them asking and without their permission. He alone decides who to save and when to save them. Since He is our God and Creator, He has that right:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

We are all at the mercy of Christ to save us and He alone decides when He will act.

In this age, most of mankind is not "called out" from the world. They have no choice but to remain unbelievers until they die.

But there are "many" who are given the Holy Spirit of Promise (Early Rain) and who are called out from the world. But even with the Early Rain of the Spirit, a believer will remain carnal and spiritually blind. Because of such, they will always mix works with faith and lose their salvation. These are believers who call themselves "Christian" and who make up the roughly 2,000 different denominations/sects of the apostate church in the world. They are all under the deceptions of Satan - and those deceptions are so powerful, that they could have deceived even the very Elect if they had not been converted prior to the spirit of anti-Christ coming into the church.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

But since Christ's plan includes saving a "few" in this age, He will come a second time to those who have also been "chosen". When He comes to them, He will give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the baptism of the Spirit). With the baptism of the Spirit, the chosen believer's spiritual blindness will be healed. They will then "see" the Abomination of Desolation which occurred when Satan planted his seed (spirit of anti-Christ) within them. After they "see" the A of D, Christ will commence His judgment upon the Elect believer to rid them of Satan's influence and the influence of their carnal nature (Great Harlot). After they are both removed, the Elect believer will be saved & converted and will never fall away (back to works) again.

This is the only way a person is saved in this age.

The work and timing of a person's salvation comes solely from Christ. Mankind contributes nothing to it. After a person is converted, they will (by the governance of the Holy Spirit) produces good works (works of faith) which shows the evidence of their salvation. But even then, the credit for those good works belongs to Christ.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Everything about mankind is carefully controlled by our Creator. Nothing happens by chance or by man's "will". We are His workmanship and not our own.

Joe

 

[dev553344]

Actual God uses both the love of his children and for those that truly know the power of God and sharp judgments fear. He put hell and heaven in the bible both. One is to fear and the other is to love. They are like a vector of away from and the other toward it.

Along those lines as Jesus is the Lord, lets read about him a little so people don't get him wrong and think he's all a softy that backs down to evil:

Deuteronomy 6:13 You shall fear the Lord your God and serve Him, and shall take oaths in His name. 14 You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are all around you 15 (for the Lord your God is a jealous God among you), lest the anger of the Lord your God be aroused against you and destroy you from the face of the earth.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Actual God uses both the love of his children and for those that truly know the power of God and sharp judgments fear. He put hell and heaven in the bible both. One is to fear and the other is to love. They are like a vector of away from and the other toward it.

On that we disagree.

 

[dev553344]

Some people think they don't sin and therefore have no need of fear of the Lord. We are all sinners and die daily as Paul put it. Fear of the Lord together with Loving him makes one constantly repent and prayerful for God to have mercy. Believing you are sin free is a great delusion from Satan, to get someone to believe they are not sinners. We must be careful to not fall into the trap of the parable of the tax collector and Pharisee where we feel we are better than our brothers and sisters in relation to sin.

 

[dev553344]

Some people think God doesn't love them or they don't feel loved. And that also can be a trap. God loves the people of the earth, even the sinners. But let's face it, he is the judge in the end, and can be harsh if we've only done wickedness on this earth, being selfish and carnal man.

But we should love God for his loving and caring ways that he tends to our needs and protects us from harm. We can desire to be with him someday if he will have mercy on us. To be one of his children in a loving and caring family in heaven under God the Father, Jesus the Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

And loving God and his ways of mercy, compassion and charity, yeilds us to do good to our bothers and sisters. Fear of the Lord may stop us from doing harsh and wicked things to our brothers and sisters.

 

[dev553344]

And I wonder if the OP is in regards to the teachings I've just presented? Which are biblical teachings.

 

[St. SteVen]

While I believe God desires for all to be saved, and is willingly that no shall perish,

Who's will is sovereign?
God's will, or human will?
Is it possible for human will to supplant God's ultimate will?
God's ultimate will is for ALL to be saved.

 

[MatthewG]

Who's will is sovereign?
God's will, or human will?
Is it possible for human will to supplant God's ultimate will?
God's ultimate will is for ALL to be saved.

Saved to where?
Saved from what?
Does all include Satan and his Angels, the False Prophet, and the Beast?
How are they saved?

 

[St. SteVen]

And I wonder if the OP is in regards to the teachings I've just presented? Which are biblical teachings.

The OP is about the cause of the shift from hellfire and brimstone preaching
to eternal separation from God preaching. (whatever that means to you) ???

Why the shift?

 

[St. SteVen]

Saved to where? Saved from what?

Good question.

Saved to what you would call heaven, I suppose. BUT...
We all must go through an Age of Restoration first.
Believers and unbelievers alike.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,
as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

 

[MatthewG]

Good question.

Saved to what you would call heaven, I suppose. BUT...
We all must go through an Age of Restoration first.
Believers and unbelievers alike.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,
as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Did not God already reconcile the world unto himself through Christ?
Where does the restoration age happen?
Does it happen for all human beings?
What does all of this even mean?
Why are you quoting a scripture from Acts 3:21?
What do you believe heaven looks like, and is there any way to tell with the use of the bible?

 

[St. SteVen]

Indeed. Many ignore the parable of the lost sheep and other scriptures.

We should look at that.

 

[St. SteVen]

Actual God uses both the love of his children and for those that truly know the power of God and sharp judgments fear. He put hell and heaven in the bible both. One is to fear and the other is to love. They are like a vector of away from and the other toward it.

Can we really trust a God like that?
Sounds like he has anger management issues.

 

[MatthewG]

Another question is how does one reconcile with people having a part in the lake of fire - and also being on the outside of the gate of heaven? When looking into glimpses from what heaven is foretold to sort of look like in a heavenly sense - what is restored already according to John the baptist? Did not God already also restored the world to himself through Christ? Or does this invovle Christ coming back first before it is initiated?

The New Jerusalem​

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

3 I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, “Look, God’s home is now among his people! He will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them.[a] 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.”

5 And the one sitting on the throne said, “Look, I am making everything new!” And then he said to me, “Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true.” 6 And he also said, “It is finished! I am the Alpha and the Omega—the Beginning and the End. To all who are thirsty I will give freely from the springs of the water of life. 7 All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children.

8 “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

9 Then one of the seven angels who held the seven bowls containing the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come with me! I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

10 So he took me in the Spirit[b] to a great, high mountain, and he showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God and sparkled like a precious stone—like jasper as clear as crystal. 12 The city wall was broad and high, with twelve gates guarded by twelve angels. And the names of the twelve tribes of Israel were written on the gates. 13 There were three gates on each side—east, north, south, and west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were written the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 The angel who talked to me held in his hand a gold measuring stick to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 When he measured it, he found it was a square, as wide as it was long. In fact, its length and width and height were each 1,400 miles.[c] 17 Then he measured the walls and found them to be 216 feet thick[d] (according to the human standard used by the angel).

18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city was pure gold, as clear as glass. 19 The wall of the city was built on foundation stones inlaid with twelve precious stones:[e] the first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst.

21 The twelve gates were made of pearls—each gate from a single pearl! And the main street was pure gold, as clear as glass.

22 I saw no temple in the city, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon, for the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its light. 24 The nations will walk in its light, and the kings of the world will enter the city in all their glory. 25 Its gates will never be closed at the end of day because there is no night there. 26 And all the nations will bring their glory and honor into the city. 27 Nothing evil[f] will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Revelation 22​

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New Living Translation​

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22 Then the angel showed me a river with the water of life, clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 It flowed down the center of the main street. On each side of the river grew a tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit,[a] with a fresh crop each month. The leaves were used for medicine to heal the nations.
3 No longer will there be a curse upon anything. For the throne of God and of the Lamb will be there, and his servants will worship him. 4 And they will see his face, and his name will be written on their foreheads. 5 And there will be no night there—no need for lamps or sun—for the Lord God will shine on them. And they will reign forever and ever.
6 Then the angel said to me, “Everything you have heard and seen is trustworthy and true. The Lord God, who inspires his prophets,[b] has sent his angel to tell his servants what will happen soon.[c]”

Jesus Is Coming​

7 “Look, I am coming soon! Blessed are those who obey the words of prophecy written in this book.[d]”
8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw all these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me. 9 But he said, “No, don’t worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book. Worship only God!”
10 Then he instructed me, “Do not seal up the prophetic words in this book, for the time is near. 11 Let the one who is doing harm continue to do harm; let the one who is vile continue to be vile; let the one who is righteous continue to live righteously; let the one who is holy continue to be holy.”
12 “Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes. They will be permitted to enter through the gates of the city and eat the fruit from the tree of life. 15 Outside the city are the dogs—the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this message for the churches. I am both the source of David and the heir to his throne.[e] I am the bright morning star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” Let anyone who hears this say, “Come.” Let anyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life. 18 And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the words of prophecy written in this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person’s share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.
20 He who is the faithful witness to all these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon!”
Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!
21 May the grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s holy people.[f]

 

[dev553344]

Can we really trust a God like that?
Sounds like he has anger management issues.

Did you read the scripture I quoted in post #42. God does have anger and is slow to anger, so we usually have time to repent before he has anger against us. I would not joke or make light of God's anger especially against the Earth in the flood, or the Egyptians in Moses time, or Sodom and Gomorrah and pretend like a God who gets angry has anger management issues.

We read in the bible that in the end God will judge mankind and throw some into the lake of fire and there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Why would people be acting this way in judgment? I'll tell you why, because judgment will be according to God's will, not the people's will being judged.

Luke 13:26-29​

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New King James Version​

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26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.

 

[MatthewG]

Another question,

Was it wrong for God in the old testament to wipe other peoples land out?

Malachi 1​

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New Living Translation​

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1 This is the message[a] that the Lord gave to Israel through the prophet Malachi.[b]

The Lord’s Love for Israel​

2 “I have always loved you,” says the Lord.
But you retort, “Really? How have you loved us?”
And the Lord replies, “This is how I showed my love for you: I loved your ancestor Jacob, 3 but I rejected his brother, Esau, and devastated his hill country. I turned Esau’s inheritance into a desert for jackals.”

Was he just an angry maniac or was there a reason for it?

Did he annihilate them from existence or did the ground swallow them up and they went to paradise, or the prison part of Sheol for judgment?

Do people receive a judgment today? Or does God say come on in pal, I love you and you didn't love me though come on in? Or is there a reason for the lake of fire, mentioned in post #54 as shared?

 

[St. SteVen]

Did not God already reconcile the world unto himself through Christ?

Yes. End of story.

Where does the restoration age happen?

My Eschatology on the subject is not so good.
In the same place that everyone will be judged.
I think we will witness the judgement of every single individual.
There will also be judgment for world leaders and every country.
Probably every tribe, tongue and nation.

Does it happen for all human beings?

Yes. And angels too.

What does all of this even mean?

Ultimate Redemption. The ABSOLUTE triumph of boundless grace and mercy.

Why are you quoting a scripture from Acts 3:21?

LOL
Choose another book from this list for me
to quote from instead. Thanks.
- Romans
- James
- Ecclesiastes
- 1 Timothy

What do you believe heaven looks like, and is there any way to tell with the use of the bible?

I think that's another topic.

 

[MatthewG]

I believe all of it is on topic, @St. SteVen.

I love you anyway, you gotta answer some more questions cause just a few isn't a enough, and end of story doesn't really count as an answer to me in my opinion.

Understand your eschatology is not so good and that is okay but there are some things laid out on the table for your consideration.

All the best, even if you can't answer them we could go for a steak and I could listen to you sing to the LORD,

• #56
• #54

Love you,
Matthew

 

[St. SteVen]

Did you read the scripture I quoted in post #42. God does have anger and is slow to anger, so we usually have time to repent before he has anger against us. I would not joke or make light of God's anger especially against the Earth in the flood, or the Egyptians in Moses time, or Sodom and Gomorrah and pretend like a God who gets angry has anger management issues.

We read in the bible that in the end God will judge mankind and throw some into the lake of fire and there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Why would people be acting this way in judgment? I'll tell you why, because judgment will be according to God's will, not the people's will being judged.

This is good. I wanted to hear both sides of the issue. And didn't mean to offend you.

Can you respond to the topic title question?

Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why? ​

 

[dev553344]

Another question,

Was it wrong for God in the old testament to wipe other peoples land out?



Was he just an angry maniac or was there a reason for it?

Did he annihilate them from existence or did the ground swallow them up and they went to paradise, or the prison part of Sheol for judgment?

Do people receive a judgment today? Or does God say come on in pal, I love you and you didn't love me though come on in? Or is there a reason for the lake of fire, mentioned in post #54 as shared?

I'll attempt to answer that. Let's look at the examples of the Flood, Egyptians, Sodom and Gomorrah. These people were committing acts considered evil against people. Remember what God said about Cain when he slew Abel:

Genesis 4:9 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?” 10 And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground.

I usually think of God defending people by destroying the wicked. And that is his anger.

Now the flood people he put in hell. We know that from the new testament account of Jesus visiting spirit prison after he was crucified:

1 Peter 3:19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,