Here is what it all comes down to—- and you’d better get it right!
- Thread starter BloodBought 1953
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Completely Unbiblical .....I don’t even know where to start....
“As long as the Holy Spirit is in us ....” As if the Spirit comes and goes a dozen times a day....
My Bible says “I will NEVER leave you or forsake you” ....You get the Holy Spirit the very second that you Believe ....You make the Holy Spirit sound like some kind of Spiritual Stomach That must constantly be emptied and then refilled....Pure unbiblical silliness....with all due respect,Ferris.....when’s the last time you took a nice relaxing vacation? Away from “CrazyTown” .....you’ve been living there the last few weeks.....
But you DO know!
That's where! For He has promised, I will never leave you nor forsake you. If we believe that one promise, we can rest in His love.
Much love!
Whew ! I am sure glad that I don’t subscribe to THAT False Doctrine! I believe in SUPER Progressive Hyper Grace! Let me know if you find a Doctrine that Further elevates God’s Grace! I will be on- board!
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Keep up. We are not talking a sin, we are talking about lifestyle sins.
And then the rest of what your saying is all manner of evil goes to heaven.
God and the good Christians have to spend eternity with all manner of evil.
So what is hell for?
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I say that only because the Bible says it....you want the scriptures?
See note #7
What is this discussion about and what is it not?
I know of no one that has accused anyone of any particular sin.
I have seen no one particular sin discussed that was being committed by anybody. So that is not happening here.
If I missed it, sorry.
We are discussing theology and Christians beliefs. This particular topic can ruin lives and lead people to hell so it gets serious.
1..No one is saying that being good and doing good has anything do with being initially saved, everyone agrees that, that is through Christ.
2..No one here is saying that being good and doing good justifies us, it all about the biblical requirement to be obedience to Christ.
3..I am saying that being good and doing good is what Christians are repeatedly told to do. Being good and doing good is obedience to Christ. I mean really, what is the alternative that is being proposed here by some.
4..I am saying that sinful lifestyles can lead to hell...whether they believe in Christ or not.
5..I am not saying that sinful lifestyles cannot be forgiven. Even towards the end someone that has committed the worst of horrible sins or a sinful lifestyle can repent and be forgiven. That is all depends on sincerity and Christ will know the intentions and truths of the heart and will judge according. But that is Christ's choice to send that Christian to heaven or hell. I do contend that a change of heart at the last minute and expecting forgiveness is very risky, because, could someone like Hitler or serial killers change their character in that last few moments of their life? Not saying I know, but I would debate it.
6..I am saying that repentance is required to be initially saved. That repentance is not only acknowledging that you have sinned but a commitment to obey and be good and do good....the best you can. Salvation was not designed for perfection. Then after one is saved and commits sins, that repentance is required to get those sins forgiven. Again a commitment not to keep doing the same sin over and over again. It is not wrong for Christ to expect us to learn from our mistakes...we maybe slow learners but...
7..No one here is saying that you have to be perfect to go to heaven.
8..Then again, heaven is not going to be full of evildoers.
9..No one is saying that being good and doing good is salvation. It is obedience to Christ.
10..And the Bible says over and over again that we should obey Christ and our deeds will be judged, come Judgment Day.
11..Alternatively sins can lead to hell, particularly lifestyle sins because you cannot repent for something you intend to do or even continue to do. You cannot play Christ for a fool. You cannot con Christ, he know the heart and the intent.
12..I do contend that your average Christian will show up on Judgment Day and pass with flying colors.
13..In regard to sins, what is being discussed here is mostly lifestyle sins.
The disclaimer....if you are so messed up in the head that you cannot control your actions....that is still between you and Christ on Judgment Day and that is up to Him. On the other hand if this is you, and you cannot control your actions, you need to seek psychiatric help, because who knows what harm you could do to yourself or others.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I know you believe that we are all dirty rags....Satan believes that too.
I disagree if for no other reason because Paul called Christians saints.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
You think you are good at confusing and deception but you are not.
Christianity is a religion by definition.
What do you think "sinsomemore"
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
We note #1
We are discussing theology and Christians beliefs. This particular topic can ruin lives and lead people to hell so it gets serious.
1..No one is saying that being good and doing good has anything do with being initially saved, everyone agrees that, that is through Christ.
2..No one here is saying that being good and doing good justifies us, it all about the biblical requirement to be obedience to Christ.
3..I am saying that being good and doing good is what Christians are repeatedly told to do. Being good and doing good is obedience to Christ. I mean really, what is the alternative that is being proposed here by some.
4..I am saying that sinful lifestyles can lead to hell...whether they believe in Christ or not.
5..I am not saying that sinful lifestyles cannot be forgiven. Even towards the end someone that has committed the worst of horrible sins or a sinful lifestyle can repent and be forgiven. That is all depends on sincerity and Christ will know the intentions and truths of the heart and will judge according. But that is Christ's choice to send that Christian to heaven or hell. I do contend that a change of heart at the last minute and expecting forgiveness is very risky, because, could someone like Hitler or serial killers change their character in that last few moments of their life? Not saying I know, but I would debate it.
6..I am saying that repentance is required to be initially saved. That repentance is not only acknowledging that you have sinned but a commitment to obey and be good and do good....the best you can. Salvation was not designed for perfection. Then after one is saved and commits sins, that repentance is required to get those sins forgiven. Again a commitment not to keep doing the same sin over and over again. It is not wrong for Christ to expect us to learn from our mistakes...we maybe slow learners but...
7..No one here is saying that you have to be perfect to go to heaven.
8..Then again, heaven is not going to be full of evildoers.
9..No one is saying that being good and doing good is salvation. It is obedience to Christ.
10..And the Bible says over and over again that we should obey Christ and our deeds will be judged, come Judgment Day.
11..Alternatively sins can lead to hell, particularly lifestyle sins because you cannot repent for something you intend to do or even continue to do. You cannot play Christ for a fool. You cannot con Christ, he know the heart and the intent.
12..I do contend that your average Christian will show up on Judgment Day and pass with flying colors.
13..In regard to sins, what is being discussed here is mostly lifestyle sins.
The disclaimer....if you are so messed up in the head that you cannot control your actions....that is still between you and Christ on Judgment Day and that is up to Him. On the other hand if this is you, and you cannot control your actions, you need to seek psychiatric help, because who knows what harm you could do to yourself or others.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Repentance is what we are told to do....an other problem that you have.
No one is saying that anything but Christ saves. But it still does not mean a license to sin or that heaven will be full of evil.
Christ did not die on the cross to create a religion of sin.
Lucky Repentance....another issue with understanding. No biblical requirement to ask forgiveness for every sin or to remember every sin. But if you understood sin you would know that it would not be that hard to remember. Just included in your daily prayers. "Dear Lord, Grailhunter here, please forgive me for my sins."
Eezy Peezy!
I will remember to include this in our notes so you do not forget.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I don't see this as an objection to what @Blood Bought 1953 said. His main point, as I understand it, comes down to this. Did Jesus know me or not? If he knows me, then it follows that I am obeying his teaching, including Jesus commandment to "go and sin no more." And if I understand the original point, the exhortation was an encouragement to expand our thinking with regard to our walk. Does our walk include an avoidance of sin? Yes. Does our walk include confession of sin and a repudiation of sin? Yes, of course. But is that the sum and substance of our walk? That is the topic question and I agree, those who measure themselves against the sins they have laid are not only missing the depth and profundity of sin, they are missing the depth and profundity of a relationship with Jesus.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
@Blood Bought 1953
@amigo de christo
Consider another interpretation. Did Jesus and Paul want us to kick all unbelieving sinners out of our churches? I don't think so. How else are we going to help the lost? What is the REAL issue here? I think upon further reflection we might see that the primary focus of our concern is the man who claims to be a brother - a fellow follower of Christ - while at the same time, acting as one who is not a follower of Christ. And what is the intended purpose behind disfellowship? Shall we also impose excommunication? I don't think so. The purpose of disfellowship is to make clear the opinion of those in the church that such a man is NOT a brother in the Lord. But having gone that far, the church is to treat the man as any other unbeliever: reach out in love and attempt to persuade the man to repent and turn to the Lord.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The definition of "living in sin" can be understood in this way. The contrast is between the sinners who are running toward pleasure, selfishness, self aggrandizement, and diversion and those sinners who are running away from such things but happen to trip along the way.
You have said a mouthful here... I believe much of the offence that is birthed in this thread and all others that discuss the issue of sin.... is that NO consideration is given to the TRUTH that we are all a work in progress....sometimes we act well... and we are ( one with God if you will ) and sometimes... we fall short... for a multitude of reasons... and God is fully aware of that.
These discussions/arguments always use the WORST of examples... such as the homosexual.. .the drunk... the drug addict... the prostitute...the child molester... I believe the average Christian is simply trying to work out their salvation from Glory to Glory... and they have the right to do so without CONDEMNATION.
I don't think the church is doing their job properly in this day and age... and to go back to how it SHOULD be is something that I don't see happening.
I have been accused of getting offended by the topic of correction... I am not offended by proper correction within the church... but for the most part... I think Christians KNOW when they have sinned... and are NOT in need of correcting... but rather in need of GRACE.
Too many cooks in the kitchen so to speak.... That is my little opinion... If someone is doing proper inventory of themselves... they do NOT need someone coming along and correcting them.... and many Christians seem to think they have the right to be the SIN POLICE... all the while... neglecting to "know thyself" and missing the huge log in their own eye.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
It's not grinding an ax. These Progressive Hyper Grace people talk a good talk until they get to the hieratical part of their theology. And it's not just a meaningless point of theology. Their theology teaches that you can choose to purposely live in sin in unbelief and you are still saved as long as you had believed somewhere in the past. It's a damnable theology of the highest order. But because they talk a good talk about God's grace they slip right under the radar of true believers. Would you take your kids to a church that taught them (behind your back) that their sin doesn't mean anything in regard to whether or not they are actually saved or not?
'For what does the Scripture say?
.. "Abraham believed God,
.... and it was counted to him for righteousness."
But to him working,
.. the reward is not reckoned according to grace,
.... but according to debt.
But to him not working,
.. but believing on Him justifying the ungodly,
.... his faith is counted for righteousness.'
(Rom 4:3 mkjv)
Hello @Blood Bought,
I agree with your OP, but did not feel I could endorse it with a 'like'(Rom 4:3), because of your use of the word hell, which simply means 'the place of the dead' or 'the grave'. 'The wages of sin is death'. Hell is the repository of the dead. The 'damned' you refer to have forfeited the right to 'the gift of life' through unbelief. They have been judged and found wanting, and are subject to the second death.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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