Here is what it all comes down to—- and you’d better get it right!

[BloodBought 1953]

Oh yes, He takes credit for Christ's Gospel....Paul preached the Gospel, but he did not own it. Our salvation is not through Paul. Great guy but, not a Savior.

Paul not a Savior ? .. you get the “ duh” award for 2021....
Paul certainly was not a Savior....
Here is what He WAS.....” Paul, an Apostle - sent not by men— but by Jesus Christ and God The Father...” pretty good credentials, don't you think?

Jesus said that we are to “follow Paul” as he follows Christ....did Jesus ever say “ Follow James”..... there’s nothing wrong with James , but nobody else ever got the authority and the “feather in his cap “ that Paul did....

Paul was “God’s Chosen Vessel” and Messenger to the Gentiles.....

They Mysteries of the Ages were revealed to Paul....Jesus never even revealed these things to the disciples—- the Church Age.....The Body Of Christ....the Gospel .....The Rapture......salvation wide- open to the Gentiles.....the list Goes On.....

 

[Tong2020]

…

<<<1..No one is saying that being good and doing good has anything do with being initially saved, everyone agrees that, that is through Christ.>>>

Noted.

But initially saved? What do you mean by that?

<<>2..No one here is saying that being good and doing good justifies us, it all about the biblical requirement to be obedience to Christ.>>>

Noted.

But biblical requirement to be obedient to Christ to be justified? Can you show scriptures to that effect?

<<<3..No one is saying that good deeds is what gets you to heaven.>>>

Noted.

<<<4..I am saying that being good and doing good is what Christians are repeatedly told to do.>>>

Yes. However, instructions such as that are really not for the true Christian who were justified, and through whom God does good, but for them who profess and claim to be true Christians yet are practicing sin.

<<<Being good and doing good is obedience to Christ. I mean really, what is the alternative that is being proposed here by some.>>>

Noted.

<<<5..I am saying that sinful lifestyles can lead to hell...whether they believe in Christ or not.>>>

Yes. However, sin, lifestyle or not, brings death. That is certain, for it is written, the wages of sin is death.

But whether they believe in Christ or not?

What then is the sense of the very words of Jesus when He said “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.”?

<<<6..I am not saying that sinful lifestyles cannot be forgiven. Even towards the end someone that has committed the worst of horrible sins or a sinful lifestyle can repent and be forgiven. That is all depends on sincerity and Christ will know the intentions and truths of the heart and will judge according. But that is Christ's choice to send that Christian to heaven or hell. I do contend that a change of heart at the last minute and expecting forgiveness is very risky, because, could someone like Hitler or serial killers change their character in that last few moments of their life? Not saying I know, but I would debate it.

7..I am saying that repentance is required to be initially saved. That repentance is not only acknowledging that you have sinned but a commitment to obey and be good and do good....the best you can. Salvation was not designed for perfection. Then after one is saved and commits sins, that repentance is required to get those sins forgiven. Again a commitment not to keep doing the same sin over and over again. It is not wrong for Christ to expect us to learn from our mistakes...we maybe slow learners but...>>>

All I could say relative to this is that Salvation is of God, by God, by grace. He creates anew. He transforms and conforms those whom He saves according to the counsel of His will. He works in them to that effect, and will finish and complete His work of salvation of them until the day of Jesus Christ.

<<<8..No one here is saying that you have to be perfect to go to heaven.>>>

Perfect? What do you mean?

<<<9..Then again, heaven is not going to be full of evildoers.>>>

Of course.

<<<10..No one is saying that being good and doing good is salvation. It is obedience to Christ.>>>

Salvation is of God, by God, by grace, through faith in God and in Jesus Christ.

<<<11..And the Bible says over and over again that we should obey Christ and our deeds will be judged, come Judgment Day.>>>

Yes, scriptures says that.

<<<12..Alternatively sins can lead to hell, particularly lifestyle sins because you cannot repent for something you intend to do or even continue to do. You cannot play Christ for a fool. You cannot con Christ, he know the heart and the intent.>>>

No true Christian practices sin. No true Christian would play Christ for a fool.

<<<13..I do contend that your average Christian will show up on Judgment Day and pass with flying colors.>>>

Average Christian?

<<<14..In regard to sins, what is being discussed here is mostly lifestyle sins.>>>

Noted.

But sin is sin, lifestyle or not.

<<<15..No one is saying that there is a biblical requirement to ask forgiveness for every sin or to remember every sin. Just ask forgiveness in one of your daily prayers.>>>

Noted.

Tong
R4234

 

[BloodBought 1953]

One of the scriptures that point to the fact that obeying Christ goes hand in hand with sanctification. Set one's self a side for the Good work of Christ.

Yes.....let’s set aside room for the Good Work That God actually created us for.....let’s just realize that that good stuff did not get us saved and it does not keep us Saved....done with either one of those attitudes.....they just become Dead Works.....let God Work THROUGH you......that’s what it is all about....

 

[Grailhunter]

Here is what He WAS.....” Paul, an Apostle - sent not by men— but by Jesus Christ and God The Father...” pretty good credentials, don't you think?

I did not say that Paul did not have good credentials. I said He does not have a Gospel...by "my Gospel" he maybe referring to the fact that his was the most correct. Very brilliant person.

Jesus said that we are to “follow Paul” as he follows Christ.

Jesus said that we are to “follow Paul” as he follows Christ?....LOL...more like Paul said...1st Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

1st Corinthians 3:4-5 When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world? What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes.....let’s set aside room for the Good Work That God actually created us for.....let’s just realize that that good stuff did not get us saved and it does not keep us Saved

Are you wanting that list again? No one is saying that being good or doing good gets us saved or saves us. You keep saying this silly stuff over and over again...hence the list to keep you honest. But I have shown to you that Christ said that not doing good for others can send you to hell.

they just become Dead Works

Show me where obedience to Christ or doing good for one another is dead works. You have it so wrong! It has to be a battle between you and the Word of God. So much you ignore. It is a disgrace.

 

[Tong2020]

We must do what Jesus commands us to do.....this side of the Cross, Jesus left His Followers with only TWO Commands......#1 Believe. #2 Love
Concentrate on just those two commands and watch everything else take care of itself...

I think only one, that is, to Love. For I take the first, that is, to believe, as a given in His followers.

Tong
R4235

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Definitely a short sighted perception of the New Testament.
Let me guess, you think the New Testament is about sin and sin some more and go to heaven.
And love God and love each other is not relevant to obeying everything else in the New Testament.
And I have pointed this out to you before....the two commandments you are talking about was Christ talking to Jews about Judaism...He sums up the Mosaic Law by saying....on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Reading comprehension! Focus!

Can’t you go even 15 minutes without embarrassing yourself with your Biblical Ignorance?


The New Testament Is all about OVERCOMING sin, sin , sin.....it’s by showing that the Law is good , but it has NO POWER to conquer Sin....it can only Reveal it to us....The Gospel is the thing that has the POWER to fight Sin.....

YOU are the one that is “ Confused” ......Jesus told the Jews to Love God with all of your heart , mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself.....that is NOT what I said.....I am quoting John’s Command NOT to Unsaved Jews but to Believers in Jesus Christ....John told the Believers that after the Cross and the Ascension Of Jesus back to Heaven , Jesus only left us with Two Commands.....NOT the same two that He gave the Unsaved Jews in Matthew......John said that the only Commands that Jesus left us with were Two—-Believe and Love... ( 1John 3:23 ) Two entirely different stories....Two entirely different audiences....seems like you were “confused”..FOCUS!

 

[Grailhunter]

Can’t you go even 15 minutes without embarrassing yourself with your Biblical Ignorance?

you so funny!

The New Testament Is all about OVERCOMING sin, sin , sin.....it’s by showing that the Law is good ,

LOL What does the Law have to do with Christians? You want to focus on Paul, of all the Apostles he had the worst things to say about the Law. And it was the Law that caused the most problems in his ministry.

Jesus only left us with Two Commands.

You could say that...but still they are summaries that encompass everything in a general way.
Do we love God when we do not disobey Him?
Do we love one another when we commit adultery?
Do we love one another when we murder each other?
Do we love one another when we steal from one another?
Do we love one another with perverted sexual practices?

It looks like you are suggesting that the two commandments limits our obligation to obey, that it limits our obligation to do good.
What it actually does is expand our obligations to limitless boundaries.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Believers do put their faith in the Blood of the Lamb....but that still does not give them a license to sin.



Sinning to me has all of the appeal of sticking my hand in a fire.....New Creations with New Hearts tend to agree on that....who wants a “ License “ to do that ? I would turn down a License to sin faster than I would turn down a License for a free Drano Enema......

Anybody who thinks they can take Grace and turn it into a Sin License is welcome and free to give it a shot ...... I dare you to try it.....see how it works out.....do you like Many Stripes?

 

[Grailhunter]

Believers do put their faith in the Blood of the Lamb....but that still does not give them a license to sin.



Sinning to me has all of the appeal of sticking my hand in a fire.....New Creations with New Hearts tend to agree on that....who wants a “ License “ to do that ? I would turn down a License to sin faster than I would turn down a License for a free Drano Enema......

Anybody who thinks they can take Grace and turn it into a Sin License is welcome and free to give it a shot ...... I dare you to try it.....see how it works out.....do you like Many Stripes?

Get this clear, this is not about you. I do not know what you do or don't do. Not my business. I do not care what you believe. It is not about if I like you or not. It is all about a perverse theology. My concerns are for those that you can ruin their lives and lead them to hell.

 

[Tong2020]

Believers do put their faith in the Blood of the Lamb....but that still does not give them a license to sin.



Sinning to me has all of the appeal of sticking my hand in a fire.....New Creations with New Hearts tend to agree on that....who wants a “ License “ to do that ? I would turn down a License to sin faster than I would turn down a License for a free Drano Enema......

Anybody who thinks they can take Grace and turn it into a Sin License is welcome and free to give it a shot ...... I dare you to try it.....see how it works out.....do you like Many Stripes?

Yes sin does not appeal to those whom God had created anew in Christ Jesus. Though sin does appeal well to the flesh, that Paul calls the body of death, it does not appeal nor can it have any thing to do to the inward man, the spirit in the child of God.

So, any one who profess and claims to be a child of God, a Christian, who looks at the gospel of grace as a license to sin, is mistaken big time. In taking it as a license to sin, He is manifested to be a liar and a hypocrite, to be not who he profess and claim he is. Anybody who thinks they can take Grace and turn it into a Sin License is either a deceived one or is a hypocrite.

Tong
R4236

 

[Ferris Bueller]

fwiw idk you much yet, but you have a ministry, and many read/agree/follow you that might never acknowledge as much, imo. Also, any reply you render is now searchable, and might come up in a search even ten years from now, or even after you are dead

Thank you. I appreciate that. Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

There is nothing to support the belief that heaven will be full of those of poor character....the sinful....the evildoers. It is the most basic understanding that these will go to hell.

Yep:

To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life. 7The one who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.8But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur." Revelation 21:6-8

26And into the city will be brought the glory and honor of the nations. 27But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who practices an abomination or a lie..." Revelation 21:26-27

 

[BarneyFife]

♫Trust and obey♫
♫'Cause there's no other way♫
♫To be happy in Jesus♫
♫But to trust and obey♫

 

[BarneyFife]

The water was not fit to drink....everybody drank beer....

Yeah, I've heard that one, too. I'm afraid it's not true.

 

[BarneyFife]

Give me a break , will ya ? I am obviously just making a point....

You need a break? You go with both barrels nearly all the time. Why do you need a break from me? lol

 

[BarneyFife]

Paul not a Savior ? .. you get the “ duh” award for 2021....
Paul certainly was not a Savior....
Here is what He WAS.....” Paul, an Apostle - sent not by men— but by Jesus Christ and God The Father...” pretty good credentials, don't you think?

Jesus said that we are to “follow Paul” as he follows Christ....did Jesus ever say “ Follow James”..... there’s nothing wrong with James , but nobody else ever got the authority and the “feather in his cap “ that Paul did....

Paul was “God’s Chosen Vessel” and Messenger to the Gentiles.....

They Mysteries of the Ages were revealed to Paul....Jesus never even revealed these things to the disciples—- the Church Age.....The Body Of Christ....the Gospel .....The Rapture......salvation wide- open to the Gentiles.....the list Goes On.....

No apostle should be elevated above that which God intended. Again, he writes things that are hard to be understood, including things that could incorrectly be interpreted to mean that he was somehow preferred over the other apostles. It is warned to be a sign of instability or unlearnedness to do so.

That Paul was exceptionally gifted, there can be no doubt, but Jesus did not say to follow Paul. Paul said that, and only as he followed Christ. In other words, we are to follow Christ. It is a mistake to attribute the words of an apostle or a prophet to the Lord Jesus Christ. The words of Christ are clearly delineated in most Bibles.

Christ did speak of the His body (the church), His second coming, the Gospel, and the house of Israel being left desolate. He gave the Gospel to a Samaritan woman.

The original twelve apostles were also sent, not by men, but by Jesus Christ, Who is One with the Father.

Paul was not only the apostle to the Gentiles:

1 Corinthians 9
19For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

 

[BarneyFife]

the Law was given to SHUT YOUR MOUTH —— NOBODY CAN KEEP IT!

If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15)

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (John 15:10)

I and my Father are one. (John 10:30)

God ain’t gonna Save ANYBODY that is TRYINg to get to Heaven

Strive (75. agónizomai) to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. (Luke 13:24)

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (2716. katergazomai) your own salvation with fear (5401. φόβος phobos) and trembling (5156. τρόμος tromos). (Philippians 2:12)

Les Feldick.....Ralph “Yankee” Arnold ......the Guy at “Jesus Without Religion” .....Andrew Farley....
Rene Roland.....Paul Ellis at the magnificent site “ Escape to Reality” .....there are plenty/more....

How can we be sure they are gifted and are teaching the truth?

 

[marks]

No...I am thinking the scriptures will do for now.

Eternal life isn't knowing the Scriptures, eternal life is knowing God. Through the Scriptures we know Him. I'm not praying to my Bible, I'm praying to it's Author. And the Bible isn't Who lives in me, the Holy Spirit does. And He is not a silent partner!

People talk about "why should God let you into heaven" as if we're sitting outside somewhere, trying to convince the Master to let us in.

I suppose I've spent the greater portion of my life feeling like I was "outside", failing to realize that there is a Person Who is here with me, Who loves me fully, and Who will share my life with me. God's participation with me in my life is a big part of Why I was created, I think. At least according as I read the Scriptures.

I don't think God intends that we just memorize a book and trust in an abstraction.

"I will not leave you alone, but I will come to you", Jesus promised them. Does He do the same with us?

Jesus spoke of the disciples leaving Him, but He said He won't be alone, because the Father is with Him. In what way was the Father with Jesus that He wouldn't be alone though everyone with Him leaves?

The Father's presence in Jesus' life wasn't an abstraction, He wasn't alone. The Father was in fact with Him.

Jesus is with me, and I am not alone.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

Please elaborate ....I take that as an insult....

I actually think it’s a two-way thing.....after all the Holy Spirit is our “Helper” , not our “ Doer” so it must be something we do hand in hand.....

Nothing serious. It's just that there's something about the underlined terms that suggest you're cooperating with your sanctification, which is fine if that's what you mean, but it just doesn't sound like you.