Here we go - Slavery

[Taken]

No, I find rules for one person to beat another and own them offensive.

Where is such RULE for such beatings of slaves Scripturally given?

Taken

 

[Vince]

You have a real problem. You want to blame a god you say doesn't exist. So then your problem is in your own mind.

Nope, me referencing your god does not mean I believe he exists. Whether he exists or not he is still your god. Your actions and thoughts are being informed by the bible and your version of the god that wrote it. So when I say your god I am referring to your god that you belie in. I don't have sufficient evidence to believe he exists.

 

[Vince]

Vince, if you want to believe that then I am not trying to change your mind, ok, but I suggest that pretty much every word ppl read is in a context other than that which one would "naturally" assume, based upon "hide wisdom from the wise" and some other passages.

Note that you found the vv with a preconceived context already in mind?
Hence "the context is clear," right.
You know who else insists "the context is clear" Vince?
ya.

So wadr I'll stick with "I actually don't have the first clue about what the context is, but a good first guess is the opposite of whatever some believer is insisting that it is" for now anyway.

Then as I have said before, how can we know anything of what the bible is saying. Different people with the same criteria come up with different meanings of the text. If this was written in any other book no one would be squabbling about context in my opinion.

 

[Dave L]

I would say no.

So in view of this, God made laws to protect slaves and would punish those who disobeyed them.

 

[Vince]

LOL. So your point is...RULES being made to Govern an Issue; (in this case Slavery) means, IF one is a slave OWNER, they can make up your own rules and beat the hell out of a slave?

Is that how it worked in your house-hold?

For example, say you made rules for the kids to not go in the street....but one of the kids could ignore your rules and make up their own rule, that they could push their sibling into the street...
And you are the one that should be chastized for not making a rule to not push a sibling into the street?

Taken

Give me sufficient evidence that this god exists and made these rules. The child knows that they would be disobeying their father. God has not made it clear that owning and beating slaves should not be done. He instead codified slavery.

 

[Vince]

So in view of this, God made laws to protect slaves and would punish those who disobeyed them.

Did you read the scripture? Protecting slaves is to tell the owner that they could beat them as long as they don't beat them in the eye or teeth or they die too soon?

 

[Dave L]

Did you read the scripture? Protecting slaves is to tell the owner that they could beat them as long as they don't beat them in the eye or teeth or they die too soon?

This was an improvement.

 

[Vince]

This was an improvement.

Why not just say "Don't enslave others"?

 

[Dave L]

Why not just say "Don't enslave others"?

People were far more wicked in those days. Even many in Israel having the Ten Commandments burned their kids alive sacrificing them to Moloch.

 

[icxn]

Ty, what is a gentile slave?

Gentile slave, if spoken without gender distinction is the body in as much as it is foreign (of a different nature) to the soul, which is always our point of reference. Μale gentile slave is anger (θυμός) and female gentile slave is desire (επιθυμία), both powers of our animal nature which we have in common with irrational animals. Male Hebrew slave is the reason (λόγος) and female Hebrew slave is διάνοια, which can be roughly translated as intention, thinking faculty or understanding. In the second verse there’s no ethnic distinction, so I chose to limit the interpretation to our bodily powers and avoid having to explain what διάνοια is since there’s no exact English translation for it. Having said that, it would have been more accurate to speak of the injuring of our inner reasoning and intentions with evil thoughts and motives, which is punishable if done willingly or forgivable if done on account of an outside temptation (one day), or if some struggle to resist it took place (a second day), before giving in.

Btw the Greek words for reason and anger are of male gender (grammatically), and that of διάνοια and desire are female. In other words they match the gender of their symbolic equivalents.

 

[bbyrd009]

Then as I have said before, how can we know anything of what the bible is saying. Different people with the same criteria come up with different meanings of the text. If this was written in any other book no one would be squabbling about context in my opinion.

Well to that I would say that slavery a la Bible is defined in other places, the borrower is slave to the lender, etc, so I don't think a slave can ever be a sandwich, even if the passage might have other valid interpretations, simply because the real laws of the universe work at every level.

Note the "different ppl" all have their own agendas, generally speaking, and you have come to ppl seeking to become immortal and go up to heaven when they die, as they will even admit to you, regardless of the direct declarations in the Bible to the contrary.

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there
male and female..." so see none of those even exist in the correct context, "slave" the way we define it is useless anyway

 

[ScottA]

Cannot god make it clear to us immature atheists?


1. This is gibberish nonsense. And you have not explained one thing. How does a rule that an owner can beat a slave to death (just not immediately) thousands of years ago free me from some spiritual slavery? Where is your supporting evidence for this claim? Is it in the bible?

More gibberish nonsense. Why is it when Christians are asked why god allowed beating of slaves to death they get all philosophical and cannot make reasoned arguments?

How does beating a slave so they don't die immediately but is OK after 2 days limiting abuses of slaves? Why didn't god anywhere in the bible just say something like "Don't make slaves of one another". Why is this issue so different than other issues he made direct commands for? He says don't lie but makes no special rules for lying.

What does this mean?

Give me sufficient evidence that god exists then maybe you have a point here.

So the people that are the ones being owned and beaten is to teach me a lesson about how to live? This also depends on the reality that god exists.

1. He is. By life, or by death.
2. Says the toddler. Yes, of course it is gibberish to you, I didn't say Googoo even once. But Googoo is not the answer. I gave you an adult answer...and obviously you are not ready for it.
3. More lack of Googoo. More adult language over your head.
4. It keeps them alive long enough for both parties to come to a greater grasp of the negative reality of slavery by their own example, like touching the stove. And if you don't follow that or understand, you may have to wait until you mature.
5. It means you are not ready for the truth.
6. Gimme, gimme. No, sorry, I have told you this before. It doesn't work that way. No cookie.
7. Everything in the worldly experience is the manifestation of things in the spirit realm. Thus, slavery is manifest to show the crime of slavery that one commits against themselves. By example, we/you are suppose to be prompted to do what is right, rather than make the same mistakes again that got us here. The big mistake was to turn away from God. This is your second chance. Here in the manifest world, God has placed before us life and death, and told us what to choose. But you are not listening. Not a good choice.

 

[Vince]

People were far more wicked in those days. Even many in Israel having the Ten Commandments burned their kids alive sacrificing them to Moloch.

So instead of actually correcting the problem he just made it a little better? Tell that to the slaves that were beaten. No where in the bible does god or Jesus condemn slavery, god and Jesus just set up rules to govern slavery. God should have said don't enslave another. Do you believe slaves today should be free?

 

[Dave L]

So instead of actually correcting the problem he just made it a little better? Tell that to the slaves that were beaten. No where in the bible does god or Jesus condemn slavery, god and Jesus just set up rules to govern slavery. God should have said don't enslave another. Do you believe slaves today should be free?

Slavery is part of the curse God placed people under along with sickness, war and all forms of death. But he uses it for good when believers are slaves which was common in both the Old and New Testaments.

 

[Vince]

Says the toddler. Yes, of course it is gibberish to you, I didn't say Googoo even once. But Googoo is not the answer. I gave you an adult answer...and obviously you are not ready for it.

You gave an answer that was not internally consistent and was circular. That is not a mature argument. It is the kind of argument my 8 year old makes.

It keeps them alive long enough for both parties to come to a greater grasp of the negative reality of slavery by their own example, like touching the stove. And if you don't follow that or understand, you may have to wait until you mature.

So instead of telling your kids to not touch the stove, teaching them why with reason you would tell them to touch it with no explanation. Your support of slavery and gods rules for beating slaves shows how twisted religion has make you.

It means you are not ready for the truth.

You have not supported anything you have said. You have no truth.

Gimme, gimme. No, sorry, I have told you this before. It doesn't work that way. No cookie.

I asked for evidence god exists and you say this. This is evidence to me that you have none.

Everything in the worldly experience is the manifestation of things in the spirit realm. Thus, slavery is manifest to show the crime of slavery that one commits against themselves. By example, we/you are suppose to be prompted to do what is right, rather than make the same mistakes again that got us here.

Where is this supported in the bible? In the mean time god allowed people to Own each other and to be beat slaves for whatever reason the Owner sees fit and then doesn't tell us that is what he is doing? This is an immoral act.

 

[Vince]

Where is such RULE for such beatings of slaves Scripturally given?

Taken

It was in my first post.

"Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing." (Ex 21:1-2, ESV)

"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money." (Ex 21:20-21 ESV)

 

[bbyrd009]

So iow never mind that there are no slave or free, and let's keep pretending that Scripture is discussing literal slaves, let's keep reading like believers do, etc. ok.

 

[Taken]

It was in my first post.

"Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing." (Ex 21:1-2, ESV)

"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money." (Ex 21:20-21 ESV)

Look, you brought up Slavery, which has a broad spectrum, but you lodged your complaint against God for having made Rules ABOUT Slavery.

If you are NOT one of Gods People;
Gods Rules about Slavery do not apply to you, so it doesn't really matter to me if you like the rules or think they are just, or not.

If you are a potential Slave, you should make yourself aware IF there are any rules that would apply to you, effected by your Slave owner.

If you are a potential Slave buyer, you should make yourself aware IF there are any rules that would apply to you, from a legal rule making authority in your jurisdiction.

If your standard, By your own decisive belief, is that Slavery is Immoral, that's you. You don't hold the authority to make the rules FOR God, or FOR the worlds population.

Not particularly news, the world is DIVIDED in what they choose to Believe.

Slavery comes is all kinds of forms, called by all kinds of names. Sometimes slavery is forced, sometimes slavery is agreed to by the one serving another.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[ScottA]

You gave an answer that was not internally consistent and was circular. That is not a mature argument. It is the kind of argument my 8 year old makes.

So instead of telling your kids to not touch the stove, teaching them why with reason you would tell them to touch it with no explanation. Your support of slavery and gods rules for beating slaves shows how twisted religion has make you.

You have not supported anything you have said. You have no truth.

I asked for evidence god exists and you say this. This is evidence to me that you have none.

Where is this supported in the bible? In the mean time god allowed people to Own each other and to be beat slaves for whatever reason the Owner sees fit and then doesn't tell us that is what he is doing? This is an immoral act.

1. How was my answer "not internally consistent" and "circular." I only ask, because regardless of how you may see it, you are wrong and that is the problem - you are looking at it all wrong. So, if you want to get to the bottom of it, let's hear the details of your objection.
2. You are not being honest or fair. I told you very clearly that slavery is soooo wrong that God has had to step in, and that it only exists because He intends to save us from our own self destruction.
3. All the world and history are a witness to the truth I have told you. You not seeing the elephant in the room, is what is lacking.
4. Again, you have refused to see the obvious...literally the whole world. I nor God have left anything unanswered. You refusing it, is the problem. But my refusal to entertain your questions after you refuse to see or hear or reason, is on you - it is me holding up a mirror. It is also appropriate because, as I have repeatedly said and you have repeatedly refused, that is not how it works. How evidence from God works, is you open your eyes and ears and be honest. But you don't even give God what you give those things you do believe in. Two can play at that. Don't you see (again as I have already repeatedly said), these are your terms...and you are only getting what you yourself will allow for. You have set the limits on God, and that is all He is giving you. But back to how this works. Pay attention: "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." In other words, you look around you and see acts of God and hear the witness of His word, and then that word, that "evidence" comes to you from God. Circular. Yes. But if you have a problem with that, you will get nothing and die at the end of your organic existence.
5. "In the beginning God created..." Its all a creation. "God is spirit." The only actual non-created reality is spirit. But what you see as immoral, is not. It would be immoral to let us get what we deserved. He's not doing that, but is rescuing us...at least those who will receive it. If you don't like the accommodations. Fine. Jump back in the water.

 

[Vince]

Look, you brought up Slavery, which has a broad spectrum, but you lodged your complaint against God for having made Rules ABOUT Slavery.

No I object to the specific rules not that there are rules for slavery. The only rule I would not object to about slavery would be for god to say stop enslaving others.

If you are NOT one of Gods People;
Gods Rules about Slavery do not apply to you, so it doesn't really matter to me if you like the rules or think they are just, or not.

If you are a potential Slave, you should make yourself aware IF there are any rules that would apply to you, effected by your Slave owner.

If you are a potential Slave buyer, you should make yourself aware IF there are any rules that would apply to you, from a legal rule making authority in your jurisdiction.

If your standard, By your own decisive belief, is that Slavery is Immoral, that's you. You don't hold the authority to make the rules FOR God, or FOR the worlds population.

I am not making rules for slavery. I am objecting to gods rules for slavery. If I could make rules for slavery I would abolish the practice. The fact that you think that it is OK for people to be slaves and treated badly because they are not chosen by god is sick.

Slavery comes is all kinds of forms, called by all kinds of names. Sometimes slavery is forced, sometimes slavery is agreed to by the one serving another.

Yes, but we should try to abolish it in all forms in my opinion. God never tried to do that according to your bible. Should we try to free the estimated 40 million slaves living today?