Here's some data on John 10:33

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,647
6,442
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
Desperat reach. The verse reads the people took what Jesus said to mean X. This is not a declarative statement of his nature.

I was responding to a person who stated that the Pharisees were not accusing Jesus of claiming to be God.

This Forum member was not telling the Truth, so, he needed a bit of exposure.

Maybe you can give it a try now, Wrangler.
-
-
New International Version
, making himself equal with God.

New Living Translation
making himself equal with God.

English Standard Version
making himself equal with God.

Berean Study Bible
making Himself equal with God.

Berean Literal Bible
making Himself equal to God.

King James Bible
making himself equal with God.

New King James Version
making Himself equal with God.

New American Standard Bible
, making Himself equal with God.

NASB 1995
making Himself equal with God.

NASB 1977
making Himself equal with God.

Amplified Bible
making Himself equal with God.

Christian Standard Bible
making himself equal to God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
making Himself equal with God.

American Standard Version
making himself equal with God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Learner

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
9,136
9,860
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your false insinuation is noted, again offered without a quote or any proof.
So, Try being honest, vs, just stating your warped opinion.
That would be something new for you to experience, apak.

So, when you are trying to agree with the words of Jesus that Prove His Deity...... just read 2 verses.
(you'll need a bible).

Read : John 1:10, which reveals Jesus as the creator of the World.

Then..

Read : Colossians 1:16, as its truly defines Jesus The Lord as Deity.

Just use those 2 anytime you run into a heretic who is trying to deny the Deity of Christ.
Here's one for you Behold, and there is no riddle in this verse of scripture.

(2 Cor 5:19) That is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses to them; and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. (NEV)

Now behold carefully, 'God was in Christ' not 'God was in God.' Yahshua is not God! Case closed. I hope you see my point as your is very blunt.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Learner

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,365
2,592
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What verse in Scripture says that?

To paraphrase Reagan’s quip about Liberals, trinitarians know so much that isn’t true. :D
John 1:1-3,14 KJV
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Irrefutable proof that the "Word" aka "Jesus" was right there in the beginning of Creation Week, and points before...ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE BEGINNING.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Learner

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,349
4,989
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John 1:1-3,14 KJV
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Irrefutable proof that the "Word" aka "Jesus" was right there in the beginning of Creation Week, and points before...ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE BEGINNING.
In no way is this "Jesus is God." v1 of John does not even refer to Jesus. Not until v 14 is Jesus referred. The most anti-trinitarian book in the whole Bible, John also explicitly tells us at 20:31 that everything he wrote was to prove something other than the idea that Jesus is God; namely, that Jesus is God’s Anointed. So, it is funny to see trinitarians try to twist 1:1 – and indeed, his entire Gospel - to have a purpose other than what John explicitly stated is the purpose of his Gospel!
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,349
4,989
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Maybe you can give it a try now, Wrangler.
-

Just because I reject imposing trinitarian dogma onto unitarian text does not mean that I am not being honest. It's so funny how you pretend my previous post below, did not respond to your litany.

Desperate reach. The verse reads the people took what Jesus said to mean X. This is not a declarative statement of his nature.
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,647
6,442
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
Here's one for you Behold, and there is no riddle in this verse of scripture.

(2 Cor 5:19) That is, that God was in Christ

And here is one for you apek.

"Christ" is not Jesus's Last Name.
Its a specific Title, related to who He is before the foundation of the world.
Jesus told you..."YOU are from below, I AM from Above".
 

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
9,136
9,860
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And here is one for you apek.

"Christ" is not Jesus's Last Name.
Its a specific Title, related to who He is before the foundation of the world.
Jesus told you..."YOU are from below, I AM from Above".
Simpleton speech. That is a laughable statement you made that Christ is not the Son's last name. Thank you I never knew that ....of course I did. I need to make my point even sharper then.

So let's say for your sake then that God was in Yahshua the Christ of 2 Cor 5:19. Does that change a thing. Of course not, because God was not in God the Son. That is a pagan concept.

I see you do not know scripture that well. You should before you go off preaching about the deity and or divinity of Yahshua, the Christ.

Let me entertain one scripture verse you inferred you know about concerning the so-called deity of Christ.

How about John 1:10 of your post #60. I need to provide a short commentary as John uses a poetic and symbolic style of writing in his prologue here. And it does tie into 2 Cor 5:19

Now Verse 10 says that God Almighty, the Father or the He, was in the world, and he made the world not his Son, Jesus Christ. The Son had not been introduced yet by John.

The ‘He’ in this verse 10 is a reference to the Father, not his Son. The context from verse 6 says, “There came a man who was sent by God.” Now as ‘God is light,’ and it was revealed through his Son and thus caused him to be this same light. ‘the light of the world.’

God was always in the world and then through His Son, and yet the world did not recognize him. He came unto his own by sending his exact image, Yahshua the Christ. And they did not receive God, in that they rejected His emissary or proxy, his Son. The fact that the world did not receive Him is made more profound in the context as Scripture reveals how earnestly God reached out to them—He made expression, voice, his plan and purpose known through the flesh that shined His light through his Son so as to reach out to the world, and they still did not receive Him, even though He was offering eternal life as being the children of God’ as noted in verse 12.

Besides being called the true light of his Father in verses 7-9 Yahshua is not implicitly introduced until verse 14, when the Father's (W)word and Spirit in power, came into him, he became the word of God, his Father. And that also says the same or similar thing in 2 Cor 5:19.

(2Co 5:19) That is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses to them; and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Do you now see the LIGHT, of the Father?!

I hope that helps you understand verse John 1:10 better and more clearly. Nothing about the Son's deity I'm afraid.

(Joh 1:6) It happened that a man of God was sent. His name was John.

(Joh 1:7) This one came as a witness to testify about the light, so that all might believe in the light.

(Joh 1:8) John was not the light, but was sent that he might testify concerning the light-

(Joh 1:9) the true light, who by coming into the world enlightens every man.

(Joh 1:10) He was in the world, and though the world had originated on account of him, the world recognised him not.

(Joh 1:11) He came to his own people, and they of his own people rejected him.

(Joh 1:12) But whoever accepts him, those who believe in his name, to them he gave the right to become children of God.

(Joh 1:13) These were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

(Joh 1:14) For this, the word became flesh, and indwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. (NEV)
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,647
6,442
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
How about John 1:10 of your post )

As i was telling someone..
When a denier of the Deity of Christ wants to understand what they do not understand, then just show them :

John 1:10, that Says that Jesus Made the World.
Then Show them that Jesus is the WORD..... Who was "with God" and "Is God", according to John who wrote John 1:10.
Take them to John 1, having now established that Jesus is the Word... and show them John 1:3, that says the WORD who was with God = made all of Creation.
Now, as we see that Jesus is the WORD.... of Creation, John 1:3, then take them to Colossians 1:16, and this is Paul explaining the Deity of Christ, when He said of Jesus that all was made by Him.....everything that was made.

Show them all that, apek, and you can help them out of their deception.
 

Peterlag

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2022
2,738
823
113
68
New York
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Peterlag,

You should actually read the verse., as the reality is... Jesus made Himself "equal to God", is why they wanted to murder Him.
But i think you did read it. Your problem is that you dont want Jesus to be Deity (God), as you have been badly taught to have this mindset by those who are just like you.
Here are a few more BIBLES to help you see the LIGHT.
-
-
New International Version
, making himself equal with God.

New Living Translation
making himself equal with God.

English Standard Version
making himself equal with God.

Berean Study Bible
making Himself equal with God.

Berean Literal Bible
making Himself equal to God.

King James Bible
making himself equal with God.

New King James Version
making Himself equal with God.

New American Standard Bible
, making Himself equal with God.

NASB 1995
making Himself equal with God.

NASB 1977
making Himself equal with God.

Amplified Bible
making Himself equal with God.

Christian Standard Bible
making himself equal to God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
making Himself equal with God.

American Standard Version
making himself equal with God.

To call yourself the son of God was in that culture and even today in America the same is understood. That you share and have rights in the house where the family lives. Even a son in America can say everything that his dad has is his also and the Jews saw that as making himself on the same playing field in that household. Now did I read this correctly? That it was the Jews that said he was making himself equal with God. And not Jesus who said it?
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,647
6,442
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
That it was the Jews that said he was making himself equal with God. And not Jesus who said it?

John 1:10 says that Jesus made the World.

When Thomas first saw Jesus after He was resurrected, Thomas kneeled before the God-Man and said... my Lord and my God".

Jesus didn't correct Him, and that is because God would not correct the Truth, as you would try to do on a public forum, Peterlag

Jesus said that before Abraham was, "I AM".....and that term, is the same term that God used for Himself when talking to Moses from the burning bush and Moses asked him... who are you..? = God, in Both cases, gave the same RESPONSE.

Colossians 1:16, verified John 1:3. = Jesus, pre-incarnate, GOD....who was "manifested in the Flesh" Virgin born... 1 Timothy 3:16......who is the "WORD" of Creation.

"GOD".

Jesus is fully man and fully God.
Believe it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Learner

Peterlag

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2022
2,738
823
113
68
New York
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John 1:10 says that Jesus made the World.

When Thomas first saw Jesus after He was resurrected, Thomas kneeled before the God-Man and said... my Lord and my God".

Jesus didn't correct Him, and that is because God would not correct the Truth, as you would try to do on a public forum, Peterlag

Jesus said that before Abraham was, "I AM".....and that term, is the same term that God used for Himself when talking to Moses from the burning bush and Moses asked him... who are you..? = God, in Both cases, gave the same RESPONSE.

Colossians 1:16, verified John 1:3. = Jesus, pre-incarnate, GOD....who was "manifested in the Flesh" Virgin born... 1 Timothy 3:16......who is the "WORD" of Creation.

"GOD".

Jesus is fully man and fully God.
Believe it.

We can go through these verses but one at a time. John 1:10 first...
My Bible does not say Jesus made the world. It says He was in the world,
This verse is a reference to the Father, not to Christ. A study of the context reveals that this section opens in verse 6 by telling us, "There came a man who was sent by God..." We are told "God is light" and that God's light shown through Jesus Christ and made him the light of the world. Though God was in the world in many ways, including through His Son, the world did not recognize Him.
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,647
6,442
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
My Bible does not say Jesus made the world. It says He was in the world,
This verse is a reference to the Father, not to Christ.

If you're bible dies not say that " He was in the world and the world was created by Him", so that you can get the context of "God manifested in the FLesh", from 1 Timothy 3:16, and EVERYTHING WAS MADE BY JESUS... Colossians 1:16 then you need to get a real bible.
Owning a real bible can really help you, Peterlag.

Try one of these..

-
New International Version
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, .

New Living Translation
He came into the very world he created, .

English Standard Version
He was in the world, and the world was made through him, .

Berean Study Bible
He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, .

Berean Literal Bible
He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, .

King James Bible
He was in the world, and the world was made by him,.

New King James Version
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him,.

New American Standard Bible
He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, .

NASB 1995
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, .

NASB 1977
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, .

Amplified Bible
He (Christ) was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, .

Christian Standard Bible
He was in the world, and the world was created through him, .
 

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,365
2,592
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In no way is this "Jesus is God." v1 of John does not even refer to Jesus. Not until v 14 is Jesus referred. The most anti-trinitarian book in the whole Bible, John also explicitly tells us at 20:31 that everything he wrote was to prove something other than the idea that Jesus is God; namely, that Jesus is God’s Anointed. So, it is funny to see trinitarians try to twist 1:1 – and indeed, his entire Gospel - to have a purpose other than what John explicitly stated is the purpose of his Gospel!
The WORD that was made flesh was "God" and was there "in the beginning". There's simply no other way to understand the passage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cassandra

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,349
4,989
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The WORD that was made flesh was "God" and was there "in the beginning". There's simply no other way to understand the passage.
The truth is the opposite. It is absurd that trinitarians demand word means a person rather than an attribute of a Being/person. In the beginning, God said, 'let there be light." Very famous. The idea that another 'person' must say that because the all-powerful, God our Father cannot speak is ridiculous.

The most anti-trinitarian book in the whole Bible, John also explicitly tells us at 20:31 that everything he wrote was to prove something other than the idea that Jesus is God; namely, that Jesus is God’s Anointed. So, it is funny to see trinitarians try to twist 1:1 – and indeed, his entire Gospel - to have a purpose other than what John explicitly stated is the purpose of his Gospel!
 
  • Like
Reactions: APAK

Peterlag

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2022
2,738
823
113
68
New York
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you're bible dies not say that " He was in the world and the world was created by Him", so that you can get the context of "God manifested in the FLesh", from 1 Timothy 3:16, and EVERYTHING WAS MADE BY JESUS... Colossians 1:16 then you need to get a real bible.
Owning a real bible can really help you, Peterlag.

Try one of these..

-
New International Version
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, .

New Living Translation
He came into the very world he created, .

English Standard Version
He was in the world, and the world was made through him, .

Berean Study Bible
He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, .

Berean Literal Bible
He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, .

King James Bible
He was in the world, and the world was made by him,.

New King James Version
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him,.

New American Standard Bible
He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, .

NASB 1995
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, .

NASB 1977
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, .

Amplified Bible
He (Christ) was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, .

Christian Standard Bible
He was in the world, and the world was created through him, .

The first Bible that you mention is the NIV and it does not support the Trinity in this verse...

1 Timothy 3:16 (NIV)
Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
 
  • Like
Reactions: APAK and Wrangler

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,365
2,592
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The truth is the opposite. It is absurd that trinitarians demand word means a person rather than an attribute of a Being/person.
"Attributes" don't get turned into flesh - they are merely the characteristics of the Second Person in the Godhead Who became flesh and took the name "Jesus".
In the beginning, God said, 'let there be light." Very famous. The idea that another 'person' must say that because the all-powerful, God our Father cannot speak is ridiculous.
It's called "cooperation". Jesus was the Divine "active Agent" of the Godhead in Creation, "by Whom He made the worlds".
The most anti-trinitarian book in the whole Bible, John also explicitly tells us at 20:31 that everything he wrote was to prove something other than the idea that Jesus is God; namely, that Jesus is God’s Anointed.
"Antitrinitarian" John declares in his epistle "There are Three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these Three are One".

Notice how John makes "Word" have nothing to do with "attribute", but places "Word" on par, on the same level, makes the "Word" equal to, makes the "Word" one with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, capisce?
So, it is funny to see trinitarians try to twist 1:1 – and indeed, his entire Gospel - to have a purpose other than what John explicitly stated is the purpose of his Gospel!
There is no twisting John 1:1 KJV except on the part of those who deny Jesus' pre-incarnate existence.

"...that Rock was Christ" Who was with Israel during the Exodus.

"All things were made by Him (Jesus) and without Him was not anything made that was made".

"Behold, I will send MY messenger (John the Baptist) and he shall prepare the way before ME" - it was the Son Who came to us in Bethlehem, not the Father.

"But unto the Son (Jesus) He (the Father) saith, Thy throne, O God (Jesus) is forever and ever."
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Learner

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,365
2,592
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Here's one for you Behold, and there is no riddle in this verse of scripture.

(2 Cor 5:19) That is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses to them; and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. (NEV)

Now behold carefully, 'God was in Christ' not 'God was in God.' Yahshua is not God! Case closed. I hope you see my point as your is very blunt.
Jesus is God in the highest sense of the word, friend.
  • He was there in Eden speaking everything into existence.
  • He was there with Abraham throughout his sojourn.
  • He was there wrestling through the night until dawn with Jacob.
  • He was there with Moses at the burning bush.
  • He was there guiding Israel as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.
  • He was there with Joshua before the taking of Jericho.
  • He was there bearing solemn news before Manoah and his wife.
Pick any one of these points and I'll prove it is so from the KJV Bible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Learner

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,349
4,989
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"Attributes" don't get turned into flesh - they are merely the characteristics of the Second Person in the Godhead Who became flesh and took the name "Jesus".
Nonsense. What you have bold and underlined is an idol, a man-made fabrication not found in Scripture.

It is important to recognize the colorful language of Scripture does not say God was made incarnate, only his words. This fulfills what God said he would do in Debt 18:15-18.
 
  • Like
Reactions: APAK