Here's some data on John 10:33

[Wrangler]

"Antitrinitarian" John declares in his epistle "There are Three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these Three are One".

No. The Gospel of John does not say this. However, neither does 1 John 5:7. The Trinity Delusion: 1 John 5:7

 

[Phoneman777]

Nonsense. What you have bold and underlined is an idol, a man-made fabrication not found in Scripture.

It is important to recognize the colorful language of Scripture does not say God was made incarnate, only his words. This fulfills what God said he would do in Debt 18:15-18.

Words ain't divine - Beings are. You need to learn that.

"For if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall DIE in your sins".

 

[Phoneman777]

No. The Gospel of John does not say this. However, neither does 1 John 5:7. The Trinity Delusion: 1 John 5:7

I didn't say the GOSPEL of John said that. I said the EPISTLE of John says it.

"There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and These three are One." - 1 John 5:7 KJV

I don't need some foolish commentary telling me what I read so plainly in this verse is not so. As for the champions of the Critical Text who claim the verse never existed, they are deeply entrenched in satanic deception and need to escape from it, lest they partake of the same plagues which will destroy "Babylon".

 

[Phoneman777]

No, that's not what it is called. Whose voice said this is my son? Not a cooperative.

You mean the voice that said that to Jesus AFTER His incarnation? That was the Father.

Who's voice said, "Behold, I will send My messenger and he shall prepare the way before ME"?

That's right...JESUS, the God of the OT.

 

[Peterlag]

Here's some data on the word "logos" from John 1:1...

It is imperative that the serious student of the Bible come to a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as "Word" in John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that the word logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most versions of John logos is capitalized and translated "Word" (some versions even write "Christ" in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it.) When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translator's decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture. As it is used throughout Scripture, logos has a very wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind like "reason" (thus "logic" is related to logos) and the other is the expression of that reason as a "word," "saying," "command," etc. The Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meaning logos has, and some of the ways it is translated in Scripture are: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, saying, sentence, speaker, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word, and words. I had thought you would have picked a verse that had not a wide range of meanings.

 

[Kermos]

We are looking for the "glory" of God, which is stated clearly as being "Jesus Christ." The glory will come at the appearing, but Scripture says clearly that both the glory of the Son and the glory of the Father will appear (Luke9:26). It has been stated that the grammar of Titus 2:13 forces the interpretation that Jesus is God because of the Granville Sharp Rule of grammar. I believe such a rule has been challenged.

Look again, Peterlag, at Lord Jesus Christ's words:

"For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory and of the Father and of the holy angels" (Luke 9:23).

That is one glory mentioned in Luke 9:23, so you are dead wrong about your conveyance that two glories are mentioned in the verse.

In fact, technically, you added to the Word of God by your thoughts that "the glory of the Son and the glory of the Father" are a glory here and a glory there according to Luke 9:23. You committed an evil sin by adding to the Word of God.

 

[Kermos]

We are looking for the "glory" of God, which is stated clearly as being "Jesus Christ." The glory will come at the appearing, but Scripture says clearly that both the glory of the Son and the glory of the Father will appear (Luke9:26). It has been stated that the grammar of Titus 2:13 forces the interpretation that Jesus is God because of the Granville Sharp Rule of grammar. I believe such a rule has been challenged.

Now that Luke 9:23 has been examined in Truth (John 14:6), let's return to Titus 2:13.

Jesus is the King of glory according to Spiritual Truth, even in Titus 2:13.

"Who is this King of glory? YHWH of hosts, he is the King of glory." (Psalm 24:10).

Look at the preceding stanza of Psalm 24 which identifies King Jesus who is the King of glory:

"Lift up your heads, Oh gates; and lift them up, Oh ancient doors; and the King of glory shall come in!" (Psalm 24:9).

Regarding "shall come in" (Psalm 24:9), it is written that Jesus "having been exalted to the right hand of God" (Acts 2:33); therefore, the Apostle Peter expouses the entry ("come in") of Jesus. See that the King of glory enters after overcoming death by crucifixion (Acts 2:31-33).

James identifies Jesus as "the Lord of glory" (James 2:1) which is synonymous with "the Master of glory", so Jesus is YHWH God.

The King of glory says "the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:5), so Jesus declares His glory, even Jesus being the King of glory.

And, King Jesus is the King of the Kingdom of God, and King Jesus is the King of glory according to His own words (John 18:36-37):

36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say [correctly] that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."
(John 18:36-37)

The "glory" mentioned by Paul in Titus 2:13 is unequivocally inclusive of Jesus Christ, and people thinking otherwise is evil.

THE SPIRITUAL TRUTH (JOHN 14:6) IS THAT THE APOSTLE PAUL INDISPUTABLY CALLS JESUS "THE GREAT GOD" WITH "LOOKING FOR THE BLESSED HOPE AND THE APPEARING OF THE GLORY OF THE GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR OF US, CHRIST JESUS" (TITUS 2:13).

 

[Kermos]

We are looking for the "glory" of God, which is stated clearly as being "Jesus Christ." The glory will come at the appearing, but Scripture says clearly that both the glory of the Son and the glory of the Father will appear (Luke9:26). It has been stated that the grammar of Titus 2:13 forces the interpretation that Jesus is God because of the Granville Sharp Rule of grammar. I believe such a rule has been challenged.

Now that Luke 9:23 and Titus 2:13 have been examined in Truth (John 14:6), let's return to consistent Apostolic testimony.

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the God" with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours by the righteousness of the God of us and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The Apostle Matthew attests that Jesus is "God with us" Immanuel (Matthew 1:23) thus Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us the children of God (Revelation 1:8).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "God" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

The Apostle Jesus (Hebrews 3:1) calls Jesus the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) by saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) and "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20) thus declaring Himself eternal, and the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) is exclusively eternal; therefore, Jesus declares Himself the One True God, YHWH!

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT JESUS WAS CREATED.

Jesus is YHWH God according to consistent Apostolic testimony.

 

[Peterlag]

Look again, Peterlag, at Lord Jesus Christ's words:

"For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory and of the Father and of the holy angels" (Luke 9:23).

That is one glory mentioned in Luke 9:23, so you are dead wrong about your conveyance that two glories are mentioned in the verse.

In fact, technically, you added to the Word of God by your thoughts that "the glory of the Son and the glory of the Father" are a glory here and a glory there according to Luke 9:23. You committed an evil sin by adding to the Word of God.

Luke 9:23 does not say Jesus is God. I know you want it to be there, but it's not.

 

[The Learner]

The problem I have with this is that the Bible does not say Jesus is fully God and fully man. In fact, it does not say anywhere that he is God.

https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

 

[The Learner]

Where are you on this...
The Bible teaches there is one God, the Father, and one Messiah and Lord, Jesus Christ, who is the divinely conceived Son of God. Jesus Christ is the fully human “Son of God” and not “God the Son.” For clarity’s sake, it's helpful to understand what the Trinity is. The orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and the three of them are co-equal, co-eternal, and share the same essence and together those three individual “Persons” are one triune God. The doctrine of the Trinity that Jesus is both 100% God and 100% man and that both the divine nature and his human nature live together in his flesh body may be widely believed, but is never stated in the Bible.

https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

 

[The Learner]

"
This rule applies to this verse. You have two nouns connected by the word "and." Those two nouns are God and Saviour. The first noun has the article in front of it ("the") and the second noun does not (there is no "the" before Saviour). This means that the two nouns are identified as the same individual. So according to the rules of Greek grammar, the "great God" is identified as "our Saviour Jesus Christ."

But you don’t need to know Greek grammar to come up with this same conclusion. Just use your common sense and think about what the verse is saying.

Who is the One who is coming again? Who is the One who is going to appear in a glorious way and in a visible way? God the Father is not going to appear. This verse is not talking about the coming of God the Father, it’s talking about the coming of Jesus Christ, our Saviour. He’s the One it’s talking about and He is the one who is described as "THE GREAT GOD.""
Titus 2:13 and the Deity of Christ

"
In review, why does this verse teach that Jesus Christ is God?

1. The grammar. The one article "the" links the phrase "the great God" with "our Saviour Jesus Christ." Who is the Great God? He’s our Saviour Jesus Christ.

2. The great God is described as appearing, and according to Biblical teaching, we are looking for Jesus Christ to appear but not God the Father.

3. The term "great God" is consistent with what Jesus is called in other places. He’s called "the mighty God" and "the true God." If He is called GOD elsewhere in the Bible, then why not in this passage as well?

4. The term "great" in the New Testament is used to describe Jesus Christ several times but it is never used to describe God the Father."
Titus 2:13 and the Deity of Christ

"The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent." Is Jesus called “God” in Titus 2:13?

"Moreover, grammatically, both of these nouns (“God and Savior”) modify Christ. There is a grammatical rule in NT Greek that whenever the article (“the”), a substantive (“noun”), kai (translated “and, but, even, also, namely”), and a substantive (noun) are used, they always refer to the same person.[1] This is called the TSKS construction.[2] Thus this expression (τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος) must all refer to Jesus. Greek grammarian Daniel Wallace affirms, “There is no good reason to reject Titus 2:13 as an explicit affirmation of the deity of Christ.”[3]"
(Titus 2:13) Does this passage support the deity of Christ? | Evidence Unseen

The above statements are made by well know Greek Scholars. It was proved in Court that France did not know biblical lanuages as he claimed he did. He could not read a verse a first grader can read.

 

[The Learner]

Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as "I am" (Acts 26:29). Thus, we conclude that saying "I am" did not make Paul God. "I am" does not identify Jesus with God, but it does draw attention to him in the strongest possible terms. "I am the one... the one you must look at, and listen to, if you would know God. The phrase "I am" occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as "I am he" or "I am the one I claim to be". They were not going to stone him because he said he was God, but rather that he said he was the son. The Jews would have just thought he was insane had they believed he said he was God. But they wanted to stone him because he said he was the son.

27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.

28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

30 And when he had thus spoken, the king rose up, and the governor, and Bernice, and they that sat with them:

31 And when they were gone aside, they talked between themselves, saying, This man doeth nothing worthy of death or of bonds.

32 Then said Agrippa unto Festus, This man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar.

From the context, no one wanted to stone him for calling himself God.
Please, stop riductous proof texting. You are making yourself look bad.,

 

[The Learner]

Okay I can respond to all your verses. Lets start with the first one which (Titus 2:13) is that the Apostle Paul did not call Jesus "the great God". My Bible says "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

When someone said or wrote something dumb, He would say, "that's a winner"

 

[Kermos]

Luke 9:23 does not say Jesus is God. I know you want it to be there, but it's not.

I did not write that Luke 9:23 says that Jesus is God in any post.

You, on the other hand, lied by writing "Scripture says clearly that both the glory of the Son and the glory of the Father will appear (Luke9:26)" as if it's a glory here and a glory there, yet Lord Jesus declares "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory and of the Father and of the holy angels" (Luke 9:23).

That is one glory mentioned in Luke 9:23, so you are dead wrong about your conveyance that two glories are mentioned in the verse.

In fact, technically, you added to the Word of God by your thoughts that "the glory of the Son and the glory of the Father" are a glory here and a glory there according to Luke 9:23. You committed an evil sin by adding to the Word of God.

 

[The Learner]

Yeah we are not on the same page.

so what?

 

[The Learner]

In no way is this "Jesus is God." v1 of John does not even refer to Jesus. Not until v 14 is Jesus referred. The most anti-trinitarian book in the whole Bible, John also explicitly tells us at 20:31 that everything he wrote was to prove something other than the idea that Jesus is God; namely, that Jesus is God’s Anointed. So, it is funny to see trinitarians try to twist 1:1 – and indeed, his entire Gospel - to have a purpose other than what John explicitly stated is the purpose of his Gospel!

ROFL, The word was God refers to his Divine nature of being God. The Watchtower even quotes translations that reads "The word was Divine"

"
Definition of divine
(Entry 1 of 3)

1religion
a: of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God (see GOD entry 1 sense 1) or a god (see GOD entry 1 sense 2)divine inspirationdivine lovepraying for divine intervention
b: being a deitythe divine Saviora divine ruler
c: directed to a deitydivine worship
2a: supremely good : SUPERBThe meal was just divine.
b: HEAVENLY, GODLIKE
divine

noun
Definition of divine (Entry 2 of 3)

1religion : CLERGYMANa Puritan divine
2religion : THEOLOGIAN
divine

verb
divined; divining
Definition of divine (Entry 3 of 3)

transitive verb

1: to discover by intuition or insight : INFERdivine the truth
2: to discover or locate (something, such as underground water or minerals) usually by means of a divining rod
intransitive verb

1: to seek to predict future events or discover hidden knowledge usually by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers : to practice divination : PROPHESY
2: to perceive intuitively
"
Definition of DIVINE

 

[The Learner]

Jesus is God in the highest sense of the word, friend.

• He was there in Eden speaking everything into existence.
• He was there with Abraham throughout his sojourn.
• He was there wrestling through the night until dawn with Jacob.
• He was there with Moses at the burning bush.
• He was there guiding Israel as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.
• He was there with Joshua before the taking of Jericho.
• He was there bearing solemn news before Manoah and his wife.

Pick any one of these points and I'll prove it is so from the KJV Bible.

Colossians 1:17
King James Version
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 1:17
Easy-to-Read Version

17 The Son was there before anything was made.
And all things continue because of him.

17 And He Himself existed and is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. [His is the controlling, cohesive force of the universe.]

 

[The Learner]

No. The Gospel of John does not say this. However, neither does 1 John 5:7. The Trinity Delusion: 1 John 5:7

In Hebrew School the word Only is NOT in your poor protexting.

Deuteronomy 6:4
King James Version

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:


Some first edition of other translations adds the word only like this [only] which indicates that the word only is not in the Hebrew text.

 

[Wrangler]

ROFL, The word was God refers to his Divine nature of being God.

ROFL. That's certainly what trinitarians demand the verse be taken to mean but it does not hold up to scrutiny.

It is just a colorful way of saying that God's words have the power and weight of he whose words they are, 'Thus saith the LORD.' Words are not a Being. So, you know John is speaking metaphorically.

This passage draws on Deut 18:15-18 with God fulfilling this prophecy by putting his words into one of the people. Jesus said as much in John 12:49. Being told what to say and how to say it is not an attribute of a deity. And I see you just ignore 20:31 as it goes against your doctrine, making hilarious trinitarians to see trinitarians try to twist 1:1 – and indeed, his entire Gospel - to have a purpose other than what John explicitly stated is the purpose of his Gospel! The purpose of his Gospel is to prove Jesus is not God but the Son of God.


I don’t speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it.
John 12:49