HERESY?

[Jane_Doe22]

I have no authority to dictate to people how they should identify themselves.

This was done in the creeds in the early church.

If we do this YOUR way, and anyone can believe what they want to and still call themselves a Christian,
the word would lose all meaning.

There are some basic tenets that we are to hold to.

If I believe in reincarnation, could I still call myself a Christian because I believe Jesus was a light from God?

Yes, anyone can call themselves a Christian, That doesn't truly mean they are all saved-- some will hear "Depart, I never knew you".

Heck, the guy sitting next to you in the pew Sunday can be the best outward proclaimer of all the right doctrine, all the right outer deeds, all the right outer convictions, and have his heart still be far from the Savior.

It's not our job to gatekeep who loves Christ.

 

[Wrangler]

I think, then, that you're watering down the word HERETIC if you think only one teaching will make the entire church heretical.

It’s just a definition thing. I’m OK with being a heretic, not a Christian or whatever term you want to proscribe to my beliefs that don’t align with yours.

Isn't this what you were speaking AGAINST?

Funny that for one reason, you want to call me not a Christian but suppose more than one reason is necessary to be a heretic.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I've often heard it said that wheat cannot become tares and V V...
but the point of the parable is that they are difficult to recognize at the beginning but easily recognizable by the end of their growth.

They are easy to recognise by the fact that they are not the same or even similar to one another any more. At the “harvest”, the differences are easily discernible......they are easily recognised by those differences, not their similarities. Jesus said that “few” are on the ‘cramped and narrow road to life’....(Matthew 7:14-14) This is why.

IOW, I understand this to mean that as we grow in our faith, we must be easily recognizable at harvest time (our death).
Haven't read the rest yet, but would you agree?

The “harvest” in the parable is not our death....it is the end of the present world system when Christ returns to cleanse the earth of all wickedness, and to introduce the blessings of his Kingdom to redeemed mankind. (Revelation 21:2-4)

"WHILE MEN WERE SLEEPING" I think Jesus meant that the Christians were not alert and let some heresy slip in.
I don't believe it means the death of the Apostles because heresies were already entering the church (the earthly institution) because we know for sure that John was very worried about the gnostics and this is who he was referring to in John when he wrote THEY LEFT US BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT OF US. 1 John 2:19

If you read 2 Thessalonians 2:7 you will see that the apostles were holding back the apostasy that Jesus foretold. The “weeds” were “pretend Christians” whose teachings and conduct betrayed a departure from what the Master taught. This apostasy resulted in major heresies that are taught to this day as truth. History is repeating, as it always does because we do not learn the lessons of the past. (Matthew 15:7-9) Introduced “traditions of men” are heresies which are taught as the truth.

Agreed.
Except I wouldn't say from the 2nd century onward.
The church began to fall apart when it became embroiled with affairs of the state.
I believe this started with the Council of Nicea in 325AD when Constantinople removed the illegality of practicing Christianity and then his successor made it the religion of the state in 380AD.

The preceding centuries allowed a slow and gradual acceptance of the doctrines that finally made it into official church doctrine in the 4th century. It didn’t happen overnight.
Full acceptance of false teachings resulted in a church so drunk with its own power, that it turned itself into something Jesus would never have recognised....to this day, not much has changed. All of the core doctrines of the “mother” church, adopted from pagan sources, are still taught even by Protestantism. The churches of Christendom have never been taught the truth....

God does not therefore see “denominations”...he sees only genuine Christians and false ones, clearly identified and separated by what they accept as truth. If you have been taught to love the lies, you will never see the truth.

I'm afraid you've lost me and I even wonder if you're a mainline Christian...

I left mainstream Christianity decades ago, completely disillusioned by its absolute hypocrisy.
The origins of its teachings are plain and easily researched, yet it justifies all manner of beliefs and behavior that God’s word condemns.
There is a long list....

I do believe the Early Church Fathers have the correct teachings.

The early “church fathers” were responsible for the gradual acceptance of the apostasy that Jesus said would result in a counterfeit “Christianity” that would disown Christ by its teachings, doing all manner of things contrary to everything that Jesus taught.
Come the judgment, Jesus will reject those outright as those he “never knew”....”NEVER” means “not ever”....(Matthew 7:21-23)

We had better get our facts straight if we desire salvation......after all, what we are “saved” from is God’s anger over what humans, under the influence of the sower of the “weeds”, have done to his worship and failing utterly in their role as custodians of his word.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, anyone can call themselves a Christian, That doesn't truly mean they are all saved-- some will hear "Depart, I never knew you".

Heck, the guy sitting next to you in the pew Sunday can be the best outward proclaimer of all the right doctrine, all the right outer deeds, all the right outer convictions, and have his heart still be far from the Savior.

It's not our job to gatekeep who loves Christ.

Exactly.....Paul’s words to Timothy remain true....
“Make every effort to present yourself before God as one who is worthy of his approval, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, but who imparts the word of truth without any alteration. Avoid idle and worldly chatter, for those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly . . .
However, the foundation that God has sealed remains firm, and it bears this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his own,” and “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”. . .
A servant of the Lord should not engage in quarrels but should be kind to everyone. He should be a good teacher and patient, correcting with gentleness those who oppose him. For God may grant them repentance so that they may come to recognize the truth and regain their senses, enabling them to escape the snare of the devil who had held them captive and subjected them to his will.” (2 Timothy 2:15-16,19,24-26 -NCB)

Being “saved” is not just about our beliefs but about our actions in “doing the will of the Father”. Belief is not passive, it is active.....”faith without works is dead”. (James 2:18-26)
What “works” was James alluding to? Backing up what we believe by our actions....like Abraham did. It means obedience to God even when we don’t understand the reason. We can’t pick and choose our beliefs, nor can we add or subtract from what Jesus taught. It’s all or nothing.

 

[amadeus]

No but that true burn your talking about does have its flaring. It’s from our flesh. It is when we like to be right in our mind and heart instead of just letting someone else believe how they will and let those whom are babes in Christ mature by giving them a helping hand every once in awhile by pointing things out.

I remember myself when I was a babe in Christ, I was not lead completely by the spirit but my flesh. That seed had to be watered and nurtured but God gave the increase.

There two types of Christians newborn babes, and mature Christians I think, what are your thoughts?

Oh, you are right. There is the calling of the unbeliever. He can hear little or nothing else good, but he can hear that call. Once he has really answered and gets on the milk diet then he needs to grow toward the mature child of God, the one who is able to partake of and properly digest the meat of the Word of God.

 

[Earburner]

"Power" I think we call can agree with.
I do, however, disagree with your criticism of the church fathers.
If we can't trust the early church fathers...who can we trust?*
They learned from the Apostles.

Thanks for your honest appraisal.

"Who can we trust?"
We can trust in the Holy Spirit to guide and direct us into all truth. John 16:13.

For the Apostles, we DO KNOW that they did HAVE the Lord's Holy Spirit and were led by Him, but as for the "early church fathers", not so much.
Though I have read some of their writings, I am no historical authority in the slightest. From what I percieve of them, they were theologins and intellectuals of the early church. By and large, they were mostly Religionists, applying their natural intellect and wills into what would be the correct and universal way Christians should worship God as a body of believers, thus establishing "traditions" of worship.

Most of their beliefs primarily were centered around Rome and the Catholic church.
Dogmas and "creeds", such as the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed, are still used by the Catholic church and main line Protestant churches, which were derived by "the early church fathers".
I do not hold the "early church fathers" in any high regard as many do.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I do, however, disagree with your criticism of the church fathers.
If we can't trust the early church fathers...who can we trust?

They learned from the Apostles.

God. Follow Him.

Do not follow any man-- they are wretched sinners and follow short of the glory of God. That includes Church Fathers. If you have God Himself confirm to you that a man is there to help you on your walk with Christ, that's great- help is fantastic! After all, that was the Apostles roles and many others. But first and foremost ask God Himself and keep on listening to Him.

"By My Spirit"....agreed, but then how come we get so many differing ideas??

Because we are still imperfect and so far from the glory of God. Thankfully, God doesn't reject us because of that fact.

 

[amigo de christo]

Agreed.
Being Christian used to mean something...now it doesn't.
I like to say that I'm a believer.
Some say born again, converted, etc.

It's unfortunate that the term Christian means nothing these days.

Oh the term christain sure does have meaning . its just most who profess to be one , aint one .
There is no such thing as lip love without heart love . And there is no such thing as heart love if one lips not His name either .
Many can lip his name , OH But they only follow parts of what he taught and thus its LIP service only .
Many more now believe folks that dont even lip his name yet have some kind of good works and love are saved , YEAH that aint heart love either
ITS False . Mount up cause this all inclusive monster is growing more tails and latching hold of many hearts . AND ITS FALSE .

 

[amigo de christo]

CLING TO CHRIST and all orignal sound doctrine . CLING to the one and only original gosple and beleive no other gospel .
And DO SO QUICKLY before its too late to do so .

 

[amadeus]

...
"By My Spirit"....agreed, but then how come we get so many differing ideas??...

Mixtures resulting from people who have received the Spirit of God only then to regularly quench the Spirit received and to follow the ways of their own carnal minds or the ways of some other carnal man or men.

Apostle Paul warned against this here:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

And all of us probably have done it. The churches teach people to do it when they set up their own rules and traditions to worship and conduct meetings called services or masses. Is God leading or are men leading?

Is God incompetent? Some people treat Him that way when they make their hard and fast rules about who can do what and when...

 

[Taken]

I think being called a heretic is more than just not agreeing with some teaching of a man's long standing tradition, preaching and teaching.
The dictionary states that a heresy is a teaching that is against the orthodox teaching of any religion.
That sounds like more than just not agreeing with a man-made doctrine.

Someone that stopped following a teaching is called an apostate, not a heretic.

And you do sound very adverse to the Catholic faith.
I don't know that the CC calls Protestants heretics...

Orthodox....IS long standing.
Heretic is a person, Heresy is teaching against a Long standing tradition.
True, I do not agree with a host of things Catholics preach and teach.
Yes, it has occurred on many occasions on this forum of Catholics calling non-Catholics “heretics”.

 

[Taken]

Agreed.
Being Christian used to mean something...now it doesn't.
I like to say that I'm a believer.
Some say born again, converted, etc.

It's unfortunate that the term Christian means nothing these days.

Born Again, is regarding the “spirit of man”, and part of Conversion IN Christ.
Converted “IN” Christ, is expressly concerning:
Forgiveness of sin, covering of sin, freeing from sin, the Body, the soul,
the spirit, sanctification, justification, preservation, forever with the Lord God.

Believer, indicates who one believes, but (who is NOT Converted).

Jesus used the term “Converted”, which is all Encompassing of the free will “confession” of the individual and the Lord Gods Works of “changing” the individual.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Stumpmaster]

Well if we knew the correct doctrine we would have one church with no denominations no?

Did you hear about the motion put forward at the AGM of The True Church . . . "that unanimous agreement be reached on everything believed to be true." ?

They couldn't unanimously agree on what what was believed to be true about everything because no-one knows that except God.

 

[Wrangler]

I think we should be less critical of doctrine and be more focused on fulfilling Jesus’ commands. We need to love each other. The world hates its fellow man now.

Loving others. The simple Gospel of Christ.

It's really too simple and too hard for us. Too simple philosophically and too hard practically. So, we invent doctrinal complexity to hide behind. We make universal agreement on the doctrine we make up a pre-requisite to loving others. This is a standard designed to fail.

In my study of Scriptural covenant, the power and challenge is that it is NOT conditional. We do like our little get out of jail free cards. 'I was a victim' is popular today. A careful analysis of the facts reveals that another's sins does not absolve us of ours; namely our failure to love unconditionally.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actual "Mormon" here.

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (nicknamed "Mormons") 100% believe that Jesus Christ 100% divine, the Son of God. It's literally the first Article of Faith. Yes, I'm a Christian. Not a Protestant or Catholic, but Christian nonetheless.

Nice to meet you Jane Doe.
Maybe I'll learn some more about Mormons...

 

[GodsGrace]

Strawman. A Christian has something to due with God’s Anointed. This is why they are not called Peterians or Godians.

I don't understand your point OR about a strawman.
To me this is a way of not answering a question.
But I don't mind if you don't.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Nice to meet you Jane Doe.
Maybe I'll learn some more about Mormons...

Feel free to ask me any time. I'm super hard to offend and have ZERO desire of proselytizing in any type.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I don't understand your point OR about a strawman.
To me this is a way of not answering a question.
But I don't mind if you don't.

I think @Wrangler's point is that a Christian is a disciple of Christ, versus a particular human teacher/denomination.

 

[Wrangler]

I don't understand your point OR about a strawman.
To me this is a way of not answering a question.
But I don't mind if you don't.

An Appeal to Strawman is a logical fallacy where one re-states his opponents argument in weaker terms - then attacks that weaker argument. The metaphor is like fighting with a scare crow rather than an actual man.

To be a Christian does NOT mean you believe he is God. To be a Christian is to follow Christ.

This is how we use language. Other examples: Aristotlean, Reaganesque, Trumpster are all terms where people follow the ideas of the man. In no case, do the followers of the man believe he is God. Hence, Christ followers are not called Godian.

Trinitarians usurp the term Christian and want it to mean Godian, demanding one believe a man is God.

 

[bbyrd009]

the ‘cramped and narrow road to life’.

is that NWT? love it

The “harvest” in the parable is not our death....it is the end of the present world system when Christ returns to cleanse the earth of all wickedness, and to introduce the blessings of his Kingdom to redeemed mankind

sing it with me one more time
“toooooooooooooooooooooooooo-morrow, tomorrow…”

This apostasy resulted in major heresies that are taught to this day as truth

ya, like “Jesus, Returning” prolly

We had better get our facts straight if we desire salvation......after all, what we are “saved” from is God’s anger over what humans, under the influence of the sower of the “weeds”, have done to his worship and failing utterly in their role as custodians of his word

y’know, Yah is Love, and All sins will be forgiven, and i gotta say that i have that against the JW congregation. Contemplate Yah being as angry at us as a parent with a one year old, imo

i do not like your angry god, aj, with the contrived name
and JWs never seem happy to me?