HERESY?

[amigo de christo]

Yes Farouk, this verse is used a lot by those that believe in OSAS.
But look at what it says:
MY SHEEP HEAR My voice. Some stop hearing His voice. Hebrews 10:37-39
THEY FOLLOW Me. What if I stop following Jesus? Am I still a disciple?
I give to THEM eternal life...eternal life begins after our death...we must die first.
NO MAN shall pluck them out of My hand. But they can walk away on their own still being in possession of free will even after salvation.

Hebrews 10:37-39

Make sure ITS JESUS WE FOLLOW and not men .
But yeah , if we stop following CHRIST , then what we follow is our end . WE MUST continue IN HIM TO THE END .
TO THE END . JESUS SAID IT .

 

[farouk]

Make sure ITS JESUS WE FOLLOW and not men .
But yeah , if we stop following CHRIST , then what we follow is our end . WE MUST continue IN HIM TO THE END .
TO THE END . JESUS SAID IT .

If ppl don't continue, they never were truly saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

When it's so obvious that it contradicts Bible Scripture.

For example: some believe there won't be a second coming of Christ Jesus.

That idea is heresy, because there are many, many Bible Scriptures that declare the return of Jesus Christ back to this earth, Zechariah 14 and Acts 1 particularly.

Another example is man's Pre-tribulational Rapture theory -- it says Jesus comes to rapture His Church prior... to the great tribulation He warned of. But in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus showed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation. Thus the Pre-trib Rapture theory is heresy against God's written Word.

LOL
I agree with you on both counts!
Jesus is coming back or everyone that wrote, lied.
And He's coming back only one time...at the end of the world..whenever that will be.
Good on Matthew 24....

So you're saying a teaching that contradicts the bible, and I agree.
But even those that are wrong think they are agreeing with the bible...

Maybe an incorrect teaching IS a heresy.
Another poster said a teaching that could cause you to lose salvation...but I can't think of any...

 

[GodsGrace]

Heritical doctrine can infect the entire lump if it is not purged out fast .
And as paul once said ,there words do eat as a chancor to the soul . Thus let all who names the name of JESUS CHRIST
flee heretical teachings and correct any and all who might believe in them .

I would agree...
So who determines what is heretical?

My vote would be with the Early Church Fathers.
Would YOU agree?

 

[amigo de christo]

Assumptions in your comment that are not in the text. We can prolong this - and indeed I would encourage reading of the Word indeed - but we do not seem to agree remotely on this.

The parable of the sower shows that there are those who receive the word with joy, but have no root and fall away: this was never true, saving faith.

THEN HEED JESUS .
My advice is that we HEED JESUS .
IF JESUS warned on earth that EVEN HIS OWN had to continue to the end
AND THEN warns the beloved churches FROM HEAVEN they must do the same .
WHY On earth is it a sin for me to say , WE MUST CONTINUE IN JESUS TO THE END .
WE better all watch out for this word context . cause i have seen many within christendom
when trying to teach THEIR POINT say the same thing .
OSAS does it
CALVIN does it
MANY DO IT and yet not even their context agrees with each other .
NO, i say , we better read the bible for ourselves .
DO you really think when paul was writing or luke , or john , or peter , or james , or jude
they were writing in some hidden code only scholars could grasp . NOPE .
THEY WERE JUST WRITING SIMPLE LETTERS to said churches . MEN have duped us into believing
that we cannot understand the bible for ourselves . GUESS what ROME DID THE SAME THING .
AND NOW protestants do it as well . forthey say , YE CANNOT GRASP the bible lest ye sit under our scholars .
ROME DID the same . NOPE . I say GOD is merciful and whosever has the SPIRIT having all FAITH IN JESUS
would need THE HOLY GHOST and not wisdom of men scholars to understand what GOD INSPIRED .
WE need to read the bible for ourselves . GOD will give us the understanding of what HE INSPIRED .

 

[amigo de christo]

LOL
I agree with you on both counts!
Jesus is coming back or everyone that wrote, lied.
And He's coming back only one time...at the end of the world..whenever that will be.
Good on Matthew 24....

So you're saying a teaching that contradicts the bible, and I agree.
But even those that are wrong think they are agreeing with the bible...

Maybe an incorrect teaching IS a heresy.
Another poster said a teaching that could cause you to lose salvation...but I can't think of any...

That saying DONT contradict the bible . I TOO believe that JESUS will come again and its ONE TIME .
I got it FROM THE BIBLE . TIS MEN who claimed to know the bible that lied about this pre trib .
BUT I read the bible . I was never raised in any church . I READ IT and its very PLAIN .

 

[amigo de christo]

If ppl don't continue, they never were truly saved.

READ JOHN . GOD KNOWS WHO ARE HIS . THEY CAME OUT FROM AMONGST US CAUSE THEY WERE NOT TRULY OF US .
I KNOW THIS MY FRIEND . THE PROBLEM IS , IF WE WERE OF JESUS
THEN WE WOULD ALSO SOUND LIKE JESUS AND HE SAID YE MUST CONTINUE TO THE END .
HE DID NOT SOUND A THING LIKE TODAYS OSAS . SO WE BETTER NOT EITHER .
SEE A TRUE LAMB TAKES HEED TO ALL , NOT SOME , BUT ALL OF JESUS REMINDERS AND THE APOSTELS .
A TRUE LAMB WOULD NOT TRY AND TWIST ROMANS TEN , OR PETER , OR HEBREWS OR MANY OTHER SAYINGS TO SUIT AN ACROYNM.
BUT YEAH I DO AGREE , THEY NEVER KNEW HIM . NOT TRULY . THE QUESION IS , DO WE TRULY KNOW HIM .
IFWE DO , WHY TWIST HIS OWN WORDS .

 

[GodsGrace]

Its not the people in the church that bother me . ITS what is the LEADERS of said flock teaching those sheep .
My problem was never with the people . I expect lambs to not know it all and there will be problems that arise
that need correction amongst the people . BUT IF THE LEADERS are not mature , not well grounded in the bible
not blamless as PAUL said any leader ought to be , but rather they teach falsehoods ,THEN THAT Church is DOOMED .
ITS the leadership i had problems with . Even when i first had began seeking fellowship
By grace i knew what these leaders had long forgotten . WE CANNOT SIT UNDER TAINTED LEADERSHIP .
OR that church and all who do so will be leavened . We must get into our bibles and fast .
IT was the grace of GOD alone that put into my heart to SEEK HIM , to DESIRE HIM . HE PUT HIS LOVE into my heart
and it was a love for HIM above all and a love for the people . NO wonder GOD PUT ME IN THE BIBLE with such a love
for reading it . HE KNEW how to make one wise unto salvation through FAITH IN JESUS . SOUND BIBLE DOCTRINE .
GET IN IT MY DEAR FRIEND . I get so joyed up even reminding about it . Just look at all those big words of joy .
YE shall find HIM when ye shall seek HIM with all your heart . LET NOT SIN harden the heart .
LET us instead TRULY stir one another up by remembering what was first written in bible .

Agreed 100%
But everybody thinks they're right.
Maybe we need a Protestant Pope!
(I don't have a solution)

 

[amigo de christo]

Agreed 100%
But everybody thinks they're right.
Maybe we need a Protestant Pope!
(I don't have a solution)

That would be as bad as the catholic one . Heck kenneth copeland and others are already mini popes
and look at how false they are . WE dont need a pope , WE NEED JESUS .
I tell you what , i am gonna give you this new challenge .
EVEN IF you have read it many times , do this again .
PRAY and then go into the bible and read it daily for hours daily .
You wont need mens books to help explain it . JUST read it .
watch what happens . By grace GOD put me into the bible
back on may thirtieth of two thousand and six . WITH a hunger for the truth .
I could read that bible for hours daily . sometimes up to eight hours a day .
DO you know that has changed since those times . NOTHING , by grace i still read it and read it to others daily .
WE HAVE BEEN DUPED real bad . BUT GO back into the bible and pray and read and read and pray EVERY DAY
JUST watch what happens .

 

[Wrangler]

I have much to do with the CC and have never heard them refer to Protestants as heretics, at least not here where I live.

I was raised RCC. Protestants were not allowed to even share communion and that was put in writing in every pew. The reason was the Protestants heretical view of not acknowledging the RCC as our mediator to Christ.

Maybe they are not advertising that these days but I doubt they changed their policy.

 

[Wrangler]

Steve Ciocalanti can't make up his own meanings to words!
We have enough trouble trying to communicate between ouselves.

I respect Steve Ciocalanti. His point was to reserve the inflammatory word usage for what really matters. Otherwise, every denomination is a heretic to ones own and such language is not conducive to unity.

Heresy means any teaching that is not in keeping with the accepted doctrines of a religion.
But we also have churches that teach different doctrine...does that make them heretical?

Yes, absolutely. It makes them heretical by definition.

When my former pastor's husband died, she talked about her husband being with the Lord since he's absent from the body. At the same time, she acknowledged there are those - like me - who hold to soul sleep. Either way, it is not a major theme in sermon's, etc at the church.

 

[GodsGrace]

GOD led me out of falsehoods .
DID you know that i once too could profess JESUS by mouth , but i was lost and followed SATAN .
May that scare the socks of your feet . I once was as many now are within christendom .LOST .
DOCTRINE DOES MATTER . cause WHEN GOD draws us , HE DRAWS US TO JESUS .
TO JESUS . And sheep hear HIS VOICE not the doctrines of contrary men .
My best guess is over ninety eight or nine percent of christedom itself follows the same god as does any other false religion
SATAN .
DOCTRINE DOES MATTER . SEE , the HOLY SPIRIT IS REAL . AND IF IT IS WITHIN ONE , THEN THEY FOLLOW CHRIST and not men .
THEY WOULD embrace truth and not mixtures .
Most folks , and i mean even within christendom , would HATE THE TRUE JESUS , or paul , or james , or jude or peter , or john .
THEY TOO BUSY loving what popes , or mormons or whoever else has taught them . LIES .

I hear say that mormons are not really Christian, as we could say about JWs.
I don't know enough about the mormons, but I agree that JWs are not Christian.
I DO know the doctrine of the CC and I can't think of a doctrine they teach that would lead one to lose their salvation...
Could you give an example?
They teach that we are to obey Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

An interesting point from @Wrangler in post no. 79 is that some incorrect doctrine can be seen in some verses in the N.T.
but will not be accepted by all churches...IOW, some incorrect doc trine could be supported by scripture.

Yea, the "supported" by Scripture is not the same thing as an explicit teaching. One leader called explicit teachings "dogma" and denominational "doctrine" as that which is merely "supported."

An example of dogma, explicit teaching in Scripture is that man was created on the 6th day.

An example of doctrine not explicitly found in Scripture is the trinity. I know this is controversial and some here have even asserted it as the central message of Scripture. Others have told me you cannot be saved or even be a Christian without accepting the trinity. None of this is in Scripture. In fact, it contradicts Scripture, which says 'For us there is one God, the Father.' Trinitarianism is, therefore, an incorrect teaching.

There is no verse in Scripture that says anything like, "The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the F, S & HS who are co-substantial, co-eternal and co-equal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but will be damned to hell forever."

 

[Wrangler]

I don't know enough about the mormons, but I agree that JWs are not Christian.

They call themselves Christian. They read and follow the Bible. That's good enough for me.

 

[GodsGrace]

Assumptions in your comment that are not in the text. We can prolong this - and indeed I would encourage reading of the Word indeed - but we do not seem to agree remotely on this.

The parable of the sower shows that there are those who receive the word with joy, but have no root and fall away: this was never true, saving faith.

Sure Farouk,,,
We won't agree.

However, my remarks are not assumptions...they are clearly stated in the verse..it's just that those that believe in OSAS do not want to see what is written beyond what they want to believe.

As to the parable of the sower...
again...JESUS said they believed but it was TEMPORARY.

This means that someone could be temporarily saved...
plus all the other verses I stated...

But yes, we are still brothers in Christ and I'm not here to argue.

 

[farouk]

As to the parable of the sower...
again...JESUS said they believed but it was TEMPORARY.

No; it was those who proved to be the good ground in which the seed of the word took root that were the truly saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Make sure ITS JESUS WE FOLLOW and not men .
But yeah , if we stop following CHRIST , then what we follow is our end . WE MUST continue IN HIM TO THE END .
TO THE END . JESUS SAID IT .

Amen.
But not everyone sees what seems to be so plain and simple to us (you and me).
And so it goes...

You're correct though...I used to listen to Charles Stanley and he's one that teaches OSAS.
We have to be careful about who we listen to...they might be great preachers, but we should block out some things they say.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I don't know you, but why are you on this forum?
Everyone here has some view or other that may disagree with yours. No big problem.
What if you come across a view that is against biblical teaching?
Do you just walk away from it?

James 5:20

On this forum? There are MANY views I found downright anti-Biblical posted here, such as using humans to declare who's in God's kingdom. I acknowledge that, I talk to people about different topics respectfully, and almost always the conversation ends with no one changing their views. And that's that. It's not my job to go and burn the heretic at the stake

 

[GodsGrace]

Heretics I believe has only ONE mention in Scripture.
I believe a Scriptural “heretic” is trusting to believe, what man proclaims, OVER the Word of God.

More ‘modernly’ (for Centuries), the calling of an other “a heretic”, is more like, NOT agreeing with a “mans” long standing (doctrine and tradition) preaching and teaching.

We certainly are familiar, of “long standing” preaching, teaching, doctrine and traditions OF MEN, who grouped together, Calling “their meeting places” “Catholic Churches”, and Calling “themselves” “Catholics”.
* THEY ^ BTW, are also quite “partial” to the term “HERETIC”, and DO call men, in objection to “THEIR long standing, preaching, teaching, doctrines, traditions....Heretics”.

It is “suppose” to be derogatory and intimidating and shameful TO BE CALLED a “Heretic”.
However the FACT IS: A “Heretic”, is a person WHO “believed and followed along with a “particular” groups ... preaching, teaching, doctrines, traditions...
And THEN STOPPED.

Personally, I never Followed, preaching, teaching, doctrines, traditions OF a Group Calling themselves “Catholic”, or their meeting places, Called “CATHOLIC Churches”...
IF you did, then stopped, being called “a heretic”, simply is notification,
You have come to REJECT Catholic preaching, teaching, doctrines, traditions AS a viable means for you to accept.

IF you Never followed a Catholic preaching, teaching, doctrine, tradition...being CALLED a “heretic”, BY a Catholic, is a False accusation.

I think being called a heretic is more than just not agreeing with some teaching of a man's long standing tradition, preaching and teaching.
The dictionary states that a heresy is a teaching that is against the orthodox teaching of any religion.
That sounds like more than just not agreeing with a man-made doctrine.

Someone that stopped following a teaching is called an apostate, not a heretic.

And you do sound very adverse to the Catholic faith.
I don't know that the CC calls Protestants heretics...

 

[GodsGrace]

Identifying oneself as a CHRISTIAN, simply means, the individual is PRESENTLY believing Jesus IS the Christ.
It DOES NOT “automatically” mean, one has heartfully CONFESSED their True Belief TO the Lord God...(which is HOW an individual BECOMES “CONVERTED”, effected BY the POWER and WORKS of God)....WHO thereafter would “expressly” Identify oneself AS A “Converted Christian”...or “BORN AGAIN Christian”.

Some people...ignore the “specifics” IN Scripture....expressly the terms;
“Born Again”....or “Converted”....and instead use a dull general term that has no “specific” meaning.....of such term being “a TRUE Christian”...

Using “non specific man-made up terms”...can certainly make “Christianity”...
Appear “wishy washy”. And to many “foreigners”, generationally steeped in Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc., Christianity IS confusing, especially when using “man made up” general terms.

Agreed.
Being Christian used to mean something...now it doesn't.
I like to say that I'm a believer.
Some say born again, converted, etc.

It's unfortunate that the term Christian means nothing these days.