HERESY?

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Randy Kluth

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Hello Randy,
Will be dipping out of this conversation of this thread after this post.
I would disagree. It is a very subjective decisive decision on my part to believe it, and the Bible talks heavily about it being done.

Thank you for the friendly note, but my choice is to believe we don't have rights. We *must* believe our Creator in matters of truth and doctrine. He's Lord. You'll never go wrong when you're willing to live a life being corrected by Him.
 

Randy Kluth

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Ultimately, if you want to know what is True for yourself, you got to do the work yourself: study and prayerfully ask God Himself if this is His Truth. And then keep listening for decades+ as He keeps teaching you-- He is gracious and will keep that refiner's fire going.

Seeking any other source of "Truth" (relying on Creeds, popular vote, the radically different denominations, commentaries) is not God and falls short.

As to the difference between "Heretical" versus "Incorrect": I find that when Person A is very passionate about this particular subject and Person B disagrees with him, A will call be B a heretic and attack. When it's a subject viewed of lesser importance, A will just call B "incorrect". That's fallen men. God is different & gracious, continuing to teach & save us horribly wayward wretched sinners.

Well, one is a "street attack," and the other is a difference in convictions. These differences inevitably become hostile because calling one a "heretic" is a term of derision. We shouldn't call someone who disagrees on a minor point a 'heretic." But we must in fact identify if one is teaching gross error in the church.

For example, in Revelation we read of a woman who taught that fornication was okay in the church. A man was kicked out of the church by Paul for doing just that.

So beliefs do matter. And I would disagree that creeds aren't valuable in determining "truth." The creeds are consolidated manuals of truth based on the Bible in a form most all Christians in history would agree with, if indeed they're true Christians.

I do agree we should study to show ourselves approved, so that we can understand what we believe for ourselves. Only then can we explain to others what salvation means.
 

Randy Kluth

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Your premise is completely contradictory and all over the place. First you say Christians are supposed to get their doctrines from ecumenical councils(and what are basically the heresies that became orthodox over the first few centuries), then you end it by saying you believe scripture should take precedence over historic tradition and that the Bible should be the judge of what a Christian does. By saying heresy is a direct attack on the beliefs that the "Church" historically held to, you are by default agreeing with Catholics saying that their church is historically the true church.

No, I'm not all over the place--I'm just covering several bases that are involved in the subject. There is no contradiction. The creeds are based on the Scriptures, and so I, as a Protestant, believe that even Catholic traditions should be judged by the Scriptures. The creeds do not cover all the issues that Scripture overall does. But they are helpful in imposing Scriptural belief in Christian history.

Protestantism literally makes no sense because it claims to practice true Christianity while priding itself on believing what the Catholic councils enforced as Christian doctrine. The widely believed version of the trinity wasn't even formed until about 300 years after Christ's ascension(and even then, it was literally invented by Catholics), so it's not even remotely accurate to claim it is taught in the Bible. That's just one example of how Orthodox Christianity tries to rewrite history.

The doctrine of the Trinity was the product of people trying to make the truth of the 3 Persons of God understandable to Christians. The word "Trinity" helps in this regard. It suggests that all of the Persons of God are God, and share the divine substance. It also suggests that they have individual Personhood, such that they can be expressed as a Trinity.

The belief that there are 3 individual Persons in the one true God are derived from Scriptures. The creeds therefore believe they are conveying biblical truth in a format that people can both understand and agree with.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Well, one is a "street attack," and the other is a difference in convictions. These differences inevitably become hostile because calling one a "heretic" is a term of derision. We shouldn't call someone who disagrees on a minor point a 'heretic." But we must in fact identify if one is teaching gross error in the church.

For example, in Revelation we read of a woman who taught that fornication was okay in the church. A man was kicked out of the church by Paul for doing just that.

So beliefs do matter. And I would disagree that creeds aren't valuable in determining "truth." The creeds are consolidated manuals of truth based on the Bible in a form most all Christians in history would agree with, if indeed they're true Christians.

I do agree we should study to show ourselves approved, so that we can understand what we believe for ourselves. Only then can we explain to others what salvation means.
I do very much disagree with you here.
 

bbyrd009

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It's not really confusing, or rather, *shouldn't* be confusing. Salvation comes by Christ, period. Those who claim to be Christians and do not actually believe and practice this, and teach against it, are heretics.

It requires divine revelation to understand what Christian salvation is. Therefore, it may take Christian revelation for you to understand fully what heresy is. It is opposition to what you *know* is Christian salvation.
its like this, its like that...i dont mean this to be taken wrong, but a Christian/ordained Christian pastor (even) would be like the very last person i would trust to teach me anything about Christianity.
I know the wolves will rush in as soon as I leave...
 

Randy Kluth

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I do very much disagree with you here.

It's a free country, but you can only call yourself a true Christian if you actually believe what the Scriptures say. And I quoted the Scripture which says, "Study to show yourself approved."
 

Randy Kluth

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its like this, its like that...i dont mean this to be taken wrong, but a Christian/ordained Christian pastor (even) would be like the very last person i would trust to teach me anything about Christianity.
I know the wolves will rush in as soon as I leave...

You should know my brother, an ex-pastor. He is a great teacher, as well. And he is a great Christian, as well. I have no idea why you have this distrust in pastors or Christians trained in ministry? I'm not in ministry myself, and do take into consideration the fact that schools tend to instill a certain dogmatic perspective. We just have to be aware.
 
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bbyrd009

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You should know my brother, an ex-pastor. He is a great teacher, as well. And he is a great Christian, as well. I have no idea why you have this distrust in pastors or Christians trained in ministry? I'm not in ministry myself, and do take into consideration the fact that schools tend to instill a certain dogmatic perspective. We just have to be aware.
sure, lot of great pastors; i didnt mean that i would necessarily dismiss one out of hand just bc they were ordained…just that i would avoid them for the first three years or so?
Most Christians would view it false prophecy to say that Jesus has already returned, or that his Kingdom has, in some way, already begun
ah and i see you already understand why :)

only Yah knows when, huh
 

Jane_Doe22

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It's a free country, but you can only call yourself a true Christian if you actually believe what the Scriptures say. And I quoted the Scripture which says, "Study to show yourself approved."
God is the Judge.

Not the Creeds or other things of man. And I fully expect you to come back and say "but the Creeds are support by scripture and the tentpole of what it means to be a Christian for hundreds of years!". A response that just makes me shake my head.
 
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Randy Kluth

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sure, lot of great pastors; i didnt mean that i would necessarily dismiss one out of hand just bc they were ordained…just that i would avoid them for the first three years or so?

;)

ah and i see you already understand why :)
only Yah knows when, huh

Yea, and I can handle people having disagreements with me, and even with the church. It's just that both parties have to be willing to discuss it with a sincere desire to know what God's truth is. Thanks for the conversation.
 

Randy Kluth

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God is the Judge.

Not the Creeds or other things of man. And I fully expect you to come back and say "but the Creeds are support by scripture and the tentpole of what it means to be a Christian for hundreds of years!". A response that just makes me shake my head.

You have no idea what I'd say. Except maybe you should explain what the "things of man" are? You don't believe in the things of Man? As opposed to what--the things of God? And who is to determine what the things of God are? You?

Not that I'm trying to be disagreeable. I just don't understand what lies behind your system of truth?
 

Earburner

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If it means at variance with the essential teaching of Any church, then it seems to me that Christianity can be twisted to mean whatever we want it to.
God spoke through Zechariah about such an issue for the interpretation of His meaning, in His use of our language(s).
He placed it among two other factions that are directly in conflict with it, and are known by Him as being ineffective and undesireable for our undertanding of Him.
We can read of it in KJV- Zechariah 4:6.
[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
1. "Might" is on a personal level, having to do with our internal mental effort.
Through the use of our own fleshly mind, we all can attempt to interpret God's meaning, in his use of our language(s) of words, but it always come down to "what we think", and not how God thinks.
I remind you all of Isaiah 55:8-9, Proverbs 3:5.
Iows, everyone can achieve a human undertanding about God, that is solely derived from their own mind, being unsupported by God's Holy Spirit.

2. "Power" is from the external of ourselves. It most often comes to us through the outward influence of religious and doctrinal persuasion. Such an influence is often an unintentional mix of truth with error, due to the "church fathers" and "biblical scholars" leaning heavily on item number one above. Such a combination of truth mixed with error, ultimately generates discord of understanding between churches and professing christians, causing division.
3. "By my Spirit" is how the Lord communicates to us His meaning, in His use of our words of language(s). As a result, what our words may mean to us is not necessarily what He means from His spiritual perspective.
Jesus helps us this way: John 8[23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath [flesh]; I am from above [Spirit]:
ye are of this world;
I am not of this world.
Again, Isaiah 55:8-9.
 

Jane_Doe22

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You have no idea what I'd say. Except maybe you should explain what the "things of man" are? You don't believe in the things of Man? As opposed to what--the things of God? And who is to determine what the things of God are? You?

Not that I'm trying to be disagreeable. I just don't understand what lies behind your system of truth?
I ask God for Truth and listen to His answers. Men can help, but God Himself is the be-all-end-all.
I recommend everyone else do the same.
 
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bbyrd009

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;)



Yea, and I can handle people having disagreements with me, and even with the church. It's just that both parties have to be willing to discuss it with a sincere desire to know what God's truth
why, oh why, would you deem that “the Church” anyway?

pretty sure the God’s Honest Truth would kill me lol
 
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