HERESY?

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GodsGrace

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So that’s basically up to you and your tolerance level. If you have high tolerance for a person who’s screaming in your face and being completely evil to you and calling you all kinds of names while claiming that HE is right …. Then God has blessed you with a high tolerance level.
LOL
I don't talk to those folk.
 

GodsGrace

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When there is no effort and no desire to correct what is incorrect, admit it is incorrect, and get back on the right track. When heretics try to embed and entrench their false doctrines, and refuse to give them up, those teachings become heretical. And the Bible says that after the first and second admonition, the heretic must be rejected. Which would also mean removed from fellowship. The Gnostics went so far as to corrupt the Scriptures so that they could promote their heresies.
Of course gnostics were heretical.

But does one incorrect doctrine make a denomination heretical or just the specific teaching?
 

GodsGrace

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Hello Godgrace,

This is the Greek word for heresy.


139. hairesis
Strong's Concordance
hairesis: choice, opinion
Original Word: αἵρεσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: hairesis
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-ee-res-is)
Definition: choice, opinion
Usage: a self-chosen opinion, a religious or philosophical sect, discord or contention.
HELPS Word-studies
139 haíresis (a feminine noun derived from 138/hairéomai, "personally select, choose") – properly, a personal (decisive) choice.

139 /haíresis ("a strong, distinctive opinion") is used in the NT of individual "parties (sects)" that operated within Judaism. The term stresses the personal aspect of choice – and hence how being a Sadducee (Ac 5:17) was sharply distinguished from being a Pharisee (Ac 15:5; 26:5).

[As a feminine noun, 139 (haíresis) highlights the subjective (individual) nature of a specific(divisive) opinion.]


I’m someone who believes that Jesus done came back already, that Satan and his demons have been defeated, sin has been taken care of though we still have this flesh; but belief in the Gospel of Christ sets us free of bondage to our flesh and now we have the spirit to live by. Hell has been done away with having been tossed in the lake of fire with Satan and his angels, the beast, false prophet. I believe that their will be people who enter into the kingdom of heaven who have faith and love for God and others, and their will be people outside the kingdom gates because of no faith or love.

Thank you for reading, I would be considered in heresy by most people standards who are deeply committed to their own subjectively seen views.

God bless,
Matthew G.
Hey Matthew
I agree with much of what you've said, but the beginning set me back,,,a bit shocked to tell you the truth.

But we're not here to discuss that.

Thanks for the definition!
 

MatthewG

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So that’s basically up to you and your tolerance level. If you have high tolerance for a person who’s screaming in your face and being completely evil to you and calling you all kinds of names while claiming that HE is right …. Then God has blessed you with a high tolerance level.

Gary having been on forum sites for awhile, and with my beliefs I’ve exclaimed before, I would always tend to get upset when people would keep telling me that I am wrong. Now that have grown and matured in the faith now, still believing that everything has been accomplished it is a lot easier to avoid these things.


I am going back through a study on Mark 8:38 - which talks about the Son of Man and his return in glory from his father and the holy angels - along with Son of Man being ashamed of that generation back then he was speaking to.

It’s interesting studying the word itself it. Now I’m also to the point of just letting people believe how they will. Because ultimately they are going to. However you know if you ever have someone coming up to you that is struggling with problems and this and which normally tends to deal with the flesh just gotta straight up ask them, how much are you in the word?

The word is so awesome and beautiful to see and read, there are helpful study bibles out there and anyone can maybe pick a free one up at a church. There is much more grace in peace in our life when feast off the word be it 20 minutes, or more if a person desires to a day.

The Bible is important because of how it helps us grow and mature into Sons or Daughters of God growing up from being children of God. Loving and living by the spirit.

God is so awesome and good, I do cry sometimes at how awesome he really is.
 

MatthewG

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Hey Matthew
I agree with much of what you've said, but the beginning set me back,,,a bit shocked to tell you the truth.

But we're not here to discuss that.

Thanks for the definition!

You are welcome I would type the definition out from my Webster’s dictionary but I’m gonna go see my mom. You have a good day and hope that did help you understand. Write it down and you’ll not forget it.
 
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Desire Of All Nations

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Generally, we look to time-honored ecumenical church councils, where certain essential doctrines were discussed. The early Church Councils developed certain creeds which the Church in most all parts have generally agreed with. There has always been disputes over lesser matters like Baptism, Communion, and Church order--these things have more to do with tradition than with doctrine.

There have also been disputes on how spirituality should be demonstrated, to prove whether true holiness has been achieved. This enters into a discussion of how far God's grace goes, for example.

But the basic doctrines of the Church early focused on the oneness of God, on the fact Jesus was God, on the necessity of belief that Jesus is the source of our return to God, etc. And so, things like Trinitarianism and Christology are discussed, and formulated in words most all can sign up for.

Heresy is a direct attack on the beliefs that the Church has historically held to, apart from schismatic differences over tradition. For example, the historic Catholic Church would claim it is the true parent over all churches. But again, this is a conflict over tradition--not doctrine.

Protestants have long claimed that Scripture should be the rule over doctrine and practice, rather than historic tradition. And I would agree with this not just because I'm a Protestant, but also because the word of God is the basis of human judgment--not men.

Men wrote the Scriptures but they were called and anointed by God to represent His word. And I think all true Christians hold that the apostles were reliable. Men are fallible, and unless they are clearly called by God for some task I think what they say should always be scrutinized.
Your premise is completely contradictory and all over the place. First you say Christians are supposed to get their doctrines from ecumenical councils(and what are basically the heresies that became orthodox over the first few centuries), then you end it by saying you believe scripture should take precedence over historic tradition and that the Bible should be the judge of what a Christian does. By saying heresy is a direct attack on the beliefs that the "Church" historically held to, you are by default agreeing with Catholics saying that their church is historically the true church.

Protestantism literally makes no sense because it claims to practice true Christianity while priding itself on believing what the Catholic councils enforced as Christian doctrine. The widely believed version of the trinity wasn't even formed until about 300 years after Christ's ascension(and even then, it was literally invented by Catholics), so it's not even remotely accurate to claim it is taught in the Bible. That's just one example of how Orthodox Christianity tries to rewrite history.
I think we should be less critical of doctrine and be more focused on fulfilling Jesus’ commands. We need to love each other. The world hates its fellow man now.
Half of the apostles' ministries consisted of criticizing and attacking false doctrines or the people who were spreading them around. Christ can definitely be seen doing this throughout John and Matthew. Showing love towards fellow people includes telling them the truth so they can be protected from lies and the people who shamelessly tell them. God's people are compelled to tell the truth(Eph 4:25, Isa. 58:1), especially if someone doesn't want to hear it. Matter of fact, that's when telling the truth should become more of a priority. How can anyone be warned away from whatever sins they aren't repenting of if nobody is telling them what they need to hear?
Well if we knew the correct doctrine we would have one church with no denominations no?
The problem isn't that Protestant and Catholics can't know what the correct doctrine is. The problem is that they all want to do their own thing and believe whatever they want even if those customs and doctrines are condemned in the Bible. All a person has to do is look at how Christmas and Easter are widely revered in the "Christian" world to know that there isn't a single Protestant or Catholic that really cares what God has to say about anything, even though most of them own at least 1 bible.
 

GodsGrace

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Gary having been on forum sites for awhile, and with my beliefs I’ve exclaimed before, I would always tend to get upset when people would keep telling me that I am wrong. Now that have grown and matured in the faith now, still believing that everything has been accomplished it is a lot easier to avoid these things.


I am going back through a study on Mark 8:38 - which talks about the Son of Man and his return in glory from his father and the holy angels - along with Son of Man being ashamed of that generation back then he was speaking to.

It’s interesting studying the word itself it. Now I’m also to the point of just letting people believe how they will. Because ultimately they are going to. However you know if you ever have someone coming up to you that is struggling with problems and this and which normally tends to deal with the flesh just gotta straight up ask them, how much are you in the word?

The word is so awesome and beautiful to see and read, there are helpful study bibles out there and anyone can maybe pick a free one up at a church. There is much more grace in peace in our life when feast off the word be it 20 minutes, or more if a person desires to a day.

The Bible is important because of how it helps us grow and mature into Sons or Daughters of God growing up from being children of God. Loving and living by the spirit.

God is so awesome and good, I do cry sometimes at how awesome he really is.
This post was a blessing to me.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Well if we knew the correct doctrine we would have one church with no denominations no?

No, that's not true. There is an initial coming to the Lord, which does require a few basic truths necessary to experience spiritual birth. And then there's growth in knowledge and in experience. Some things are confirmed by experience. There is an "orthodoxy" that most conservative believers adhere to. Liberal Christians by definition depart from orthodoxy, and are not part of the true Church, as I see it. No more would I see Mormons and JW's as part of the Church.

Denominations do tend to have their own peculiarities doctrinally, but generally hold to the creeds, the fundamental beliefs of Christianity, whether they actually practice them or not. Denominations simply means "names," which happens when the Gospel message spreads out into different families, communities, and nations. Different names do not imply different orthodoxies.

Each sect tends to be divided the same way nations are, by geographical boundaries, language barriers, preferences etc. As such, denominations do not reflect *doctrinal divisions* as much as geographical and various cultural divisions.
 

FHII

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1 Corinthians 11:18-19 KJV
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. [19] For there must be also heresies h among you, that they which are approved may be made i manifest among you.

Galatians 5:19-21 KJV
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, i which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, j [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Peter 2:1 KJV
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Acts 24:14 KJV
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Titus 3:9-11 KJV
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. [10] A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; [11] Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

These are the verses that I know of in the Bible that use the term heretic. I noted three with bold print. The first and second come close to something of a definition. It involves divisions in the first one, but denying the Lord in the second.

The Acts reference is interesting... Paul seems not to mind the charge of being a heretic, but claims he isn't. In other words, he is saying, "they call me a heretic, but I am the one following the bible!"

I have been called a heretic because of my stance on a certain subject was "not orthodox". I don't mind that one bit, and it seems Paul didn't either.

I had an interesting exchange with #Breadoflife once on this topic. He explained to me that people who are of the Protestant denominations from birth are not heretics; but former Catholics who become such are heretics. If I am mistaken, my apologies.

I'll continue later...
 

Randy Kluth

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I’m someone who believes that Jesus done came back already, that Satan and his demons have been defeated, sin has been taken care of though we still have this flesh; but belief in the Gospel of Christ sets us free of bondage to our flesh and now we have the spirit to live by. Hell has been done away with having been tossed in the lake of fire with Satan and his angels, the beast, false prophet. I believe that their will be people who enter into the kingdom of heaven who have faith and love for God and others, and their will be people outside the kingdom gates because of no faith or love.

Matthew, your view is not the typical "heresy," as in anti-Trinitarianism, belief that Jesus was just a man, etc. But it does fall into the category of "false prophecy." Most Christians would view it false prophecy to say that Jesus has already returned, or that his Kingdom has, in some way, already begun.
 

Wrangler

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when does an incorrect teaching become heretical?

heresy is merely a teaching that deviates from ones standard (denomination). An example is OSAS.

Incorrect teaching is one that goes against the Word of God. An example is salvation by means other than through Gods Anointed.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Thanks for such a well thought out reply RK.
Your last sentence reminds me of the Bereans in Acts 17:11.

I agree that a heretical teaching is more in line with basic Christian beliefs, as you've stated.

It's the definition of heresy that confuses me.

There are, I'm sure, long lists of historical heretical groups. It does get confusing when we all agree that redemption came by Christ alone, but then groups otherwise in accord claim that human will does or does not play a role in our salvation. I sympathize. I indulge in a lot of these discussions about the operation of grace and free human will. The historic conflict was over Arminianism and Calvinism. Often, the confusion is strictly over language. And sometimes it's just a matter of looking at different sides of the coin. But how we view such things can get into matters of not trusting in Christ alone for our salvation, and then can be damaging to the Christian.
 

Randy Kluth

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It's not really confusing, or rather, *shouldn't* be confusing. Salvation comes by Christ, period. Those who claim to be Christians and do not actually believe and practice this, and teach against it, are heretics.

It requires divine revelation to understand what Christian salvation is. Therefore, it may take Christian revelation for you to understand fully what heresy is. It is opposition to what you *know* is Christian salvation.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Not sure where this should be...
the study of God seemed appropriate (maybe).

Every denomination has some teaching or doctrine that we would not agree with.

How would you explain the difference between an
incorrect teaching
and
a heretical teaching...?

IOW,,,when does an incorrect teaching become heretical?

Thanks.
No, that's not true. There is an initial coming to the Lord, which does require a few basic truths necessary to experience spiritual birth. And then there's growth in knowledge and in experience. Some things are confirmed by experience. There is an "orthodoxy" that most conservative believers adhere to. Liberal Christians by definition depart from orthodoxy, and are not part of the true Church, as I see it. No more would I see Mormons and JW's as part of the Church.

Denominations do tend to have their own peculiarities doctrinally, but generally hold to the creeds, the fundamental beliefs of Christianity, whether they actually practice them or not. Denominations simply means "names," which happens when the Gospel message spreads out into different families, communities, and nations. Different names do not imply different orthodoxies.

Each sect tends to be divided the same way nations are, by geographical boundaries, language barriers, preferences etc. As such, denominations do not reflect *doctrinal divisions* as much as geographical and various cultural divisions.


Ultimately, if you want to know what is True for yourself, you got to do the work yourself: study and prayerfully ask God Himself if this is His Truth. And then keep listening for decades+ as He keeps teaching you-- He is gracious and will keep that refiner's fire going.

Seeking any other source of "Truth" (relying on Creeds, popular vote, the radically different denominations, commentaries) is not God and falls short.

As to the difference between "Heretical" versus "Incorrect": I find that when Person A is very passionate about this particular subject and Person B disagrees with him, A will call be B a heretic and attack. When it's a subject viewed of lesser importance, A will just call B "incorrect". That's fallen men. God is different & gracious, continuing to teach & save us horribly wayward wretched sinners.
 

MatthewG

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Matthew, your view is not the typical "heresy," as in anti-Trinitarianism, belief that Jesus was just a man, etc. But it does fall into the category of "false prophecy." Most Christians would view it false prophecy to say that Jesus has already returned, or that his Kingdom has, in some way, already begun.

Hello Randy,

Will be dipping out of this conversation of this thread after this post.

I would disagree. It is a very subjective decisive decision on my part to believe it, and the Bible talks heavily about it being done.

God bless you, and all people here.
Continue to trust in God, having faith in the Lord who came, died, was buried, and resurrected.

Read your Bible. Don’t put it to the side, take some time and study, and chew through the meaty steak that is. Don’t give up! It is important, if someone tells you that is not important. They are wrong about that.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Every denomination has some teaching or doctrine that we would not agree with.

How would you explain the difference between an
incorrect teaching
and
a heretical teaching...?

IOW,,,when does an incorrect teaching become heretical?
Great questions, but I would have to start with a definition of “the church”, when it was clear from Jesus’ teachings that the devil was going to sow seeds of false Christianity in “the world”, and that his true disciples (the “wheat”) would be “growing” in the same “field” right along with these “weeds” (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42).....so how were we to tell the difference?

Getting into the details of this parable, we can learn some important aspects in our identification of the “weeds”. The particular “weed” used in Jesus’ illustration was assumed to be “Bearded Darnell” which was a common (and poisonous) pest in the Middle East among farmers, because in the early growing stages, it was very difficult to tell them apart from genuine wheat. In fact some farmers would sabotage a neighbor’s crop with this weed to spite them.

So when the farm workers asked their Master if they should remove the weeds, he said no!...in case they were to uproot the wheat along with the weeds, so they were to “grow together” until the “harvest time” when the reapers would be able to recognise the weeds (which were now very different to the wheat in appearance) and gather them first, and burn them in the fire to destroy them before they could produce more seed. Only then would the farmer gather his wheat into his storehouse.

Now with that in mind, when were these weeds sown? Jesus said that it happened “while men were sleeping”....so this might mean the death of the apostles, who were acting as a restraint even back then when some were trying to introduce false ideas. (2 Thessalonians 2:7)
The other kind of ‘sleeping’ that the Bible speaks of is spiritual sleep, not being awake and prepared for the things Jesus spoke about. (10 virgins)
In any case, it indicated that false Christianity would result, and that is was to take root as soon as the apostles passed away. Nothing would then restrain this tide of apostate thinking, turning “the church” into something Christ said he was never a part of. (Matthew 7:21-23)

So, looking into the history of “the church” from the second century onward, what do we see...?
We see a very corrupt system which was responsible for much bloodshed...even torture...all in the name of Christ, who never sanctioned such a thing in the first place. (Matthew 5:43-44)

Jesus would be with the “peacemakers”...”the pure in heart”.....those who did not teach doctrines that he never mentioned....and ”the meek” he said, “would inherit the earth”....not heaven.

So what “the church” became after the death of Christ and his apostles, was foretold, and it should come as no surprise that the power it took on in those early centuries corrupted the daylights out of it.
Jesus said “by their fruits” we would recognise his true disciples, who would be following through on his teachings, being hated and persecuted just as Jesus was by the very ones who claimed to worship the same God as he did. (John 15:18-21)

The “heresies” according to the church, were those against what it taught, when they themselves, like the Pharisees before them, were guilty of “teaching the commands of men as doctrines”. (Matthew 15:7-9) The heretics were so busy pointing fingers at those who dared to challenge their doctrines, that they had completely lost the plot and did what the Pharisees before them had done...they murdered those who dared to correct them, but not before torturing a confession out of them for justification. Would Jesus have done that? That is the ‘mother church’ who gave birth to many daughters, all as corrupt as herself because they took the core of her teachings with them...none of which were scriptural.

The Jews to this day, deny Jesus as the Christ, and Christendom to this day has followed in their footsteps.....teaching all manner of falsehoods and even placing God’s son on equal footing with his God and Father.....breaking the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

Heretics will not recognise their heresies because to them, they are truth....and “a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”....The truth that Jesus taught “divides” people as it should. (Matthew 10:34-36) God’s word is the truth that lets us come to really “know” God and his Son. (John 17:3; Hebrews 4:12-13)

So it is a deep question, but one that the Bible answers for those whose minds and hearts are not closed.
 
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