HERESY?

[Wrangler]

You should be more concerned about what you will say when God and Christ ask you on what grounds did you reject the Trinity?

It's not in the Bible.

 

[Pythagorean12]

You should be more concerned about what you will say when God and Christ ask you on what grounds did you reject the Trinity?

It's the other way around actually.
They'll call Trinitarians, tri-theists, to answer why they believed God was three separate and distinct person's? After God told us he is one. And beside him there is no savior. Isaiah 43.

 

[Wrangler]

It's the other way around actually.
They'll call Trinitarians, tri-theists, to answer why they believed God was three separate and distinct person's? After God told us he is one. And beside him there is no savior. Isaiah 43.

Language usage. 'Him' is a singular pronoun, which does not refer to a 3is1 being.

 

[Pythagorean12]

Language usage. 'Him' is a singular pronoun, which does not refer to a 3is1 being.

News to Trinitarians.

 

[Enoch111]

Language usage. 'Him' is a singular pronoun, which does not refer to a 3is1 being.

Bible ignorance is on display. So let's set the record straight with Scripture.

GOD THE FATHER IS THE SAVIOR (Titus 1:3;3:4)
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS ALSO THE SAVIOR (Titus 1:4; 2:13; 3:6)
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Unless the Trinity is a spiritual reality, we could not have the Holy Spirit calling both the Father and the Son by the designation of "Saviour". Which means that the anti-Trinitarians hate the truth. [Note: In the New Testament "God" generally means "God the Father" and "the Lord Jesus Christ" means God the Son, called "the great God" also].

 

[Pythagorean12]

Bible ignorance is on display. So let's set the record straight with Scripture.

GOD THE FATHER IS THE SAVIOR (Titus 1:3;3:4)
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS ALSO THE SAVIOR (Titus 1:4; 2:13; 3:6)
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Unless the Trinity is a spiritual reality, we could not have the Holy Spirit calling both the Father and the Son by the designation of "Saviour". Which means that the anti-Trinitarians hate the truth. [Note: In the New Testament "God" generally means "God the Father" and "the Lord Jesus Christ" means God the Son, called "the great God" also].

Yes, ignorance by the yruckad. Yet tri-theisy trinitarians shall not be Bibleeducated no matter how we try.
Because they have no comprehension of God power. And that's sad indeed.

 

[Wrangler]

Bible ignorance is on display.

A sign you are losing the argument is you resort to personal attacks.

Simple explanation is God (the Savior) does things through others, be it Moses, Joseph, the prophets, his suffering servant, Paul, etc.

Moses is called “The Law Giver” even though God actually gave the law. The same with Jesus. It’s rhetoric, not mystical.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Bible ignorance is on display. So let's set the record straight with Scripture.

GOD THE FATHER IS THE SAVIOR (Titus 1:3;3:4)
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS ALSO THE SAVIOR (Titus 1:4; 2:13; 3:6)
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Unless the Trinity is a spiritual reality, we could not have the Holy Spirit calling both the Father and the Son by the designation of "Saviour". Which means that the anti-Trinitarians hate the truth. [Note: In the New Testament "God" generally means "God the Father" and "the Lord Jesus Christ" means God the Son, called "the great God" also].

Why do you get so hung up on words? God is a savior....Jesus is a savior....others were used by God as saviors. (Nehemiah 9:27)
Its a title or description of a "deliverer".

A savior is one who preserves or delivers others from danger or destruction. Jehovah is identified as the principal Savior, the only Source of deliverance. (Isaiah 45:21) He was the Savior and Deliverer of Israel, time and again. (Psalm 106:8, 10, 21; Jeremiah 14:8) He saved not only the nation but also individuals who served him. (2 Samuel 22:1-3) Often his salvation was through men raised up by him as saviors. (Nehemiah 9:27) During the period of the Judges, these special saviors were divinely selected and empowered to deliver Israel from foreign oppression. (Judges 2:16; 3:9, 15) While the judge lived, he served to keep Israel in the right way, and this brought them relief from their enemies. (Judges 2:18)

When Jesus was on earth, Jehovah was his Savior, supporting and strengthening him to maintain integrity through his strenuous trials. (Hebrews 5:7; Psalm 28:8)
You are treating the word "savior" as if it means "God"......it doesn't.

 

[Aunty Jane]

ya, like “Jesus, Returning” prolly

You think Jesus returning is heresy? He promised to do that, so I don’t think he lied.
What we are seeing in the world is proof that his return is not too far away. Bible prophesy continues to unfold and we see the fulfilment of Matthew 24:3-14 and 2 Timothy 3:1-5.

y’know, Yah is Love, and All sins will be forgiven, and i gotta say that i have that against the JW congregation. Contemplate Yah being as angry at us as a parent with a one year old, imo

Being made in God’s image gives us the range of his emotions. He is loving and kind but like all parents, his patience has limits.
What do you believe that we are getting saved from?

i do not like your angry god, aj, with the contrived name
and JWs never seem happy to me?

He is the same God that Jesus worshipped....Yahweh or Jehovah...he knows his name in all languages......it isn’t just translated into English you know. God doesn’t change and he demonstrated beyond a shadow of doubt that when he told his people to obey him, he meant it. Obedience is all that he has ever asked of his children because it shows that we respect his Sovereignty, we trust his judgments and appreciate that his laws are for our benefit. If you break them you can expect some correction. If you don’t accept the correction, then you can expect his displeasure.

JW’s have the hope of the new world to look forward to.....how could we not be happy about that? :)

 

[JohnPaul]

Hi Amadeus
Believing that the Communion is a REMEMBRANCE of the death of Christ is
less than believing that the host becomes the Body and Blood of Christ.

So, it is OK for a Catholic to receive in a Protestant church, although he really shouldn't since he does not believe in the bread being the remembrance only....but a Protestant should not receive in a Catholic church because he does not believe in transubstantiation.

IOW...transubstantiation requires a higher level of belief in what communion represents.

And also a Protestant has not done his Communion, so he cannot receive the Eucharist, you are only allowed to take part in the Holy Communion of receiving the Eucharist which is the body of Christ and drinking the wine which is Christ's blood, if you have made your Communion, one of the Sacraments.

 

[JohnPaul]

Amadeus,
We have differing doctrine in different denominations - or even just different ideas.
I don't think this comes about by sinning, does it??

How does not doing something a church states become a sin?
Like what for instance?
Do you mean like the CC states that missing Mass is a mortal sin?

I remember as kid even into adulthood I could not miss Mass, as long as I lived under my parents roof I had to attend, unless of course I was sick, but every Sunday I had to go no matter what, even if there was a blizzard going on as long as the Church doors were open, I had to go.

 

[JohnPaul]

Right.
Remember drive through communion?
Really,,,I wouldn't want to practice this...

Never heard of drive through Communion, that's plain silly, no offense.

 

[marksman]

Hi Mungo
This definition is causing my question.

Wouldn't this definition mean Every church/denomination is heretical in some way?

Heresy
"Commonly refers to a doctrinal belief held in opposition to the recognized standards of an established system of thought. Theologically it means an opinion at variance with the authorized teachings of any church, notably the Christian, and especially when this promotes separation from the main body of faithful believers."

One could say that the church, in general, is opposed to the teaching in scripture about what and who the church is and as a result has practices that you will not find in scripture and does not seem to want to emulate what the scripture teaches. It seems to place more emphasis on tradition and denominational rules than what the scripture says.

When I raised this with various denominational leaders they all said the same thing. Yes, I agree but.....

 

[Earburner]

Generally, we look to time-honored ecumenical church councils, where certain essential doctrines were discussed. The early Church Councils developed certain creeds which the Church in most all parts have generally agreed with. There has always been disputes over lesser matters like Baptism, Communion, and Church order--these things have more to do with tradition than with doctrine.

There have also been disputes on how spirituality should be demonstrated, to prove whether true holiness has been achieved. This enters into a discussion of how far God's grace goes, for example.

But the basic doctrines of the Church early focused on the oneness of God, on the fact Jesus was God, on the necessity of belief that Jesus is the source of our return to God, etc. And so, things like Trinitarianism and Christology are discussed, and formulated in words most all can sign up for.

Heresy is a direct attack on the beliefs that the Church has historically held to, apart from schismatic differences over tradition. For example, the historic Catholic Church would claim it is the true parent over all churches. But again, this is a conflict over tradition--not doctrine.

Protestants have long claimed that Scripture should be the rule over doctrine and practice, rather than historic tradition. And I would agree with this not just because I'm a Protestant, but also because the word of God is the basis of human judgment--not men.

Men wrote the Scriptures but they were called and anointed by God to represent His word. And I think all true Christians hold that the apostles were reliable. Men are fallible, and unless they are clearly called by God for some task I think what they say should always be scrutinized.

Yes, the scriptures are given BY the INSPIRATION OF God, meaning that the scriptural and spiritual understandings are through "His thoughts, and His ways", which can only be interpreted correctly "by His Spirit" to us.

2 Timothy 3[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Isaiah 55:8-9
Zechariah 4:6
John 16:13

 

[bbyrd009]

You think Jesus returning is heresy? He promised to do that, so I don’t think he lied

He promised, yet you cannot Quote it from anywhere?

What we are seeing in the world is proof that his return is not too far away

which would somehow not be a kingdom that comes by observation at all? I hope you come to see Him as He is aj, or i mean just give us a date or something, if you are so committed to divining the future. But hopefully at some point it becomes apparent that our predecessors all pretty much experienced the same perspective at one point, going all the way back to the apostles entering jerusalem?

 

[Aunty Jane]

He promised, yet you cannot Quote it from anywhere?

Cannot quote Jesus saying that he was coming back?
John 14:1-3...
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God; exercise faith also in me. 2 In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be.”
Seems pretty clear to me.....

which would somehow not be a kingdom that comes by observation at all?

You are correct, the return of Christ was unseen by human eyes, but observable by the signs he gave which happened in rapid succession and continue to this day to fulfill the prophesies of Daniel and Revelation. Christ’s “presence” was revealed by the signs, whereas his “coming” as the judge appointed by his Father, will be something the whole world will be aware of. (John 5:21-22)

I hope you come to see Him as He is aj, or i mean just give us a date or something, if you are so committed to divining the future.

Matthew 24:36...
“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.”

The future is in God’s hands and he knows exactly when the time is right to act as he says he will. We are having our patience tested. As Jesus said, we are to “keep on the watch” because we do not know when the Master will arrive....but we will be ready, never letting ourselves be lulled into spiritual drowsiness. (Matthew 24:43-44)

But hopefully at some point it becomes apparent that our predecessors all pretty much experienced the same perspective at one point, going all the way back to the apostles entering jerusalem?

God’s counting of time is very different to us earth-bound humans....he will take as long as it’s necessary....when every last sheep is in the pen.

 

[Cooper]

Why do you get so hung up on words? God is a savior....Jesus is a savior....others were used by God as saviors. (Nehemiah 9:27)
Its a title or description of a "deliverer".

A savior is one who preserves or delivers others from danger or destruction. Jehovah is identified as the principal Savior, the only Source of deliverance. (Isaiah 45:21) He was the Savior and Deliverer of Israel, time and again. (Psalm 106:8, 10, 21; Jeremiah 14:8) He saved not only the nation but also individuals who served him. (2 Samuel 22:1-3) Often his salvation was through men raised up by him as saviors. (Nehemiah 9:27) During the period of the Judges, these special saviors were divinely selected and empowered to deliver Israel from foreign oppression. (Judges 2:16; 3:9, 15) While the judge lived, he served to keep Israel in the right way, and this brought them relief from their enemies. (Judges 2:18)

When Jesus was on earth, Jehovah was his Savior, supporting and strengthening him to maintain integrity through his strenuous trials. (Hebrews 5:7; Psalm 28:8)
You are treating the word "savior" as if it means "God"......it doesn't.

Jesus, our Saviour with a capital 'S' as in God, saves us eternally from spiritual perils.

Others with a small 's' save our mortal bodies from earthly perils.

The names of Jesus, the Saviour, has no comparison with earthly saviours.

All the Names of Jesus - Bible Resources
.

 

[bbyrd009]

Cannot quote Jesus saying that he was coming back?
John 14:1-3...
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God; exercise faith also in me. 2 In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be.”
Seems pretty clear to me.....

well, Jesus did not speak in English, so you might be changing your mind there, someday…i would at least maybe keep an open mind there, maybe not speak as if i was quite so sure?

You are correct

am i?

the return of Christ was unseen by human eyes

”was?”

but observable by the signs he gave which happened in rapid succession and continue to this day to fulfill the prophesies of Daniel and Revelation. Christ’s “presence” was revealed by the signs, whereas his “coming” as the judge appointed by his Father, will be something the whole world will be aware of. (John 5:21-22)

prolly not, ok? i mean imo at least prepare for the possibility, being as how that passage does not ever say what you just said

The future is in God’s hands and he knows exactly when the time is right to act as he says he will. We are having our patience tested. As Jesus said, we are to “keep on the watch” because we do not know when the Master will arrive....but we will be ready, never letting ourselves be lulled into spiritual drowsiness. (Matthew 24:43-44)

well, there is a pretty good argument for Yah being at rest now i think, and my guess is our patience has nothing to do with it, but you might be right. But what if you are not? You got a “Yah is testing our patience” v? Who is this “we” btw?

God’s counting of time is very different to us earth-bound humans....he will take as long as it’s necessary....when every last sheep is in the pen.

but you are not addressing my post, aj; we are not even having a conversation?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus, our Saviour with a capital 'S' as in God, saves us eternally from spiritual perils.

Others with a small 's' save our mortal bodies from earthly perils.

The names of Jesus, the Saviour, has no comparison with earthly saviours.

All the Names of Jesus - Bible Resources
.

Cooper, Greek had no capital letters. So putting a capital on “God” or “Savior” in the Greek scriptures doesn’t mean a thing. It’s up to the translators to do that, and to alter phraseology to suit the language into which it is translated. Bias can turn a translation into something other than what the original language meant, which is why it is good to do word studies. Translation is a very important assignment in which the translators own biases must not alter the meaning of a word or text. Interpretation is another thing that gets in the way of the truth, which is why we must compare all of scripture rather than to rely on a quoted verse out of context.

Yahweh, who sent Jesus, is also a savior. Just as the one who sends the rescuer is also a rescuer.
Jesus identified his Father as “the only true God” and said that he had been “sent” by him. (John 17:3)

Not once in all of scripture is Jesus called “Yahweh”.
Why would Jesus call his “Father” by that designation and call himself his “Son” if that was not the relationship between them? Yahweh is said to have “sons” (plural) whereas Jesus is said to have “brothers”. Jesus cannot be the father of his own brothers.

Jesus is said to be God’s “servant”.....(Acts 3:13) so how can God be his own servant?

If they were equals then sonship does not exist. The pre-human Jesus was “the Son of God” before his life was transferred from heaven to the womb of Mary. The Bible indicates a long history between Father and Son well before man’s creation. These are two entirely separate entities, only one of which the Bible described as “immortal”. Only after his successful mission on earth did his Father reward his Son with a new name and immortality. (Romans 6:9)

When the “son of man” was given his kingship, Daniel 7:13-14 says...
“I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a son of man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, Honor, and a kingdom, So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. (NASB)
Jesus was crowned as King of God’s Kingdom and was “GIVEN” dominion over nations and peoples of all languages....if he was God, who can give God these things? This is a scene in heaven....Jesus is no longer a human but raised as a spirit, because humans cannot exist in the spirit realm. The Ancient of Days” is his God and Father, granting him authority over things that he did not already have.

God’s immortality made it impossible for him to come to earth and die at the hands of man. It would mean that mere humans can kill God. Jesus was not an immortal being in heaven which allowed him to come and offer his life for us. After his death, Jesus relied on his Father to resurrect him, as foretold after 3 days. (Acts 2:32)

The whole of scripture must guide what we believe or we will fall into the trap that Satan has set for those who blindly accept what is fed to them.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You think Jesus returning is heresy? He promised to do that, so I don’t think he lied.
What we are seeing in the world is proof that his return is not too far away. Bible prophesy continues to unfold and we see the fulfilment of Matthew 24:3-14 and 2 Timothy 3:1-5.


Being made in God’s image gives us the range of his emotions. He is loving and kind but like all parents, his patience has limits.
What do you believe that we are getting saved from?


He is the same God that Jesus worshipped....Yahweh or Jehovah...he knows his name in all languages......it isn’t just translated into English you know. God doesn’t change and he demonstrated beyond a shadow of doubt that when he told his people to obey him, he meant it. Obedience is all that he has ever asked of his children because it shows that we respect his Sovereignty, we trust his judgments and appreciate that his laws are for our benefit. If you break them you can expect some correction. If you don’t accept the correction, then you can expect his displeasure.

JW’s have the hope of the new world to look forward to.....how could we not be happy about that? :)

You are a JW, @Aunty Jane ? (No judgement, I’m just trying to get to know people).