Hidden in plain sight: Why I believe this about the Revelation

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20:2 makes clear, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations [Gr. ethnos] no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

Scripture often makes broad general sweeping statements. When Scripture tells us that the Gentiles would no longer be deceived it does not mean every single one of them, or even most of them, would be saved, just that the spiritual ignorance would be finally lifted from the darkened Gentiles. This relates to the Gospel light going out to the Gentiles (ethnos). Before the cross they were in darkness; now they are enlightened. They are without excuse. The answer to darkness every time is light.

With the Lord’s First Advent, the light began to shine brightly. Jesus confronted, overcame and dispelled the darkness at every turn. Satan was defeated on his own turf. Jesus bound Satan in spiritual chains. He limited his authority and influence over the Gentile nations and invaded his kingdom with the truth. Since the binding of Satan, the devil has not been able to prevent the spread of the Gospel to the nations, to keep the truth from shining bright on the once-blinded heathen or keep the Gentiles in spiritual darkness like they were in Old Testament times. Now the rest of the world has the opportunity to repent and receive deliverance and freedom. Satan's authority to deceive has been broken over countless millions since Calvary.

We see this with the special assignment that Jesus gave Paul in Acts 26:17-18: “Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

Did this mean the deception that blinded the Gentiles would be finally be lifted from all the darkened Gentiles? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Jesus, here, directly links the spiritual darkness enveloping the Gentiles to the power of Satan. He connects the Gentiles turning from darkness to light through the advance of the great commission to the deliverance of the Gentiles from the bondage or chains of Satan. This is how the gross darkness would be (and was) removed that hung over the Gentiles throughout the old covenant period. This is how they were delivered from the power of Satan to God to liberty in Christ.

Exactly. Premils can't understand this concept, though. It's just all or nothing with them. To them, Satan can either deceive everyone or no one. They don't understand how scripture makes general statements about things sometimes such as Paul saying that before Christ the Gentiles had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12). To Premils, that means he was saying that literally no Gentiles ever had any hope and none of them ever knew God. No, there are a few exceptions. Paul was making a general statement there and that's the case in Revelation 20 as well in relation to Satan deceiving the "ethnos" (it should say "Gentiles" or "heathen" instead of "nations" since they number "as the sand of the sea").

It's not saying Satan would literally not deceive anyone during the thousand years, but that his binding would prevent him from deceiving the world in the same way he was able to in Old Testament times when a vast majority of the world was in spiritual darkness. We should compare that to there being a great multitude that no one can count from all nations being saved (Rev 7:9) to see the impact that the preaching of the gospel has had on Satan's activities in NT times compared to OT times.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Prove it using the following to do so. Prove that any Gentile that gets cutoff from the good olive tree after having been graffed into it was never saved to begin with, was never a believer to begin with. IOW, prove that a Gentile can be graffed into the good olive tree without having to be a believer.

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee .
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off

Do some of you even know what an 'if' typically means? It means there are conditions that have to be met. If a Gentile continues in His goodness, this can never happen to that Gentile---thou also shalt be cut off

Obviously, it can't mean the same thing, that if a Gentile does not continue in His goodness, this Gentile will not be cutoff. The latter is basically mocking God, that even though God says He will cutoff a Gentile that does not continue in His goodness, He never really does that. If He never does that, then why did He even mention it to begin with? What is the point in that?

What I have underlined in Romans 11 above, no intellectually honest person is going to insist, that if that were to happen to a Gentile, they were never believers to begin with, were never saved to begin with. Only a deceiver would insist that since no one would argue to begin with that a Gentile can be graffed into the good olive tree without having to be a believer first. Keeping in mind a believer equals saved.

Well as the vine is not salvation it is an irrelevant example.

Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36​

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King James Version​

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36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Colossians 3:2-4​

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King James Version​

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2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Once again I ask you, how many of your sins did Jesus suffer and pay for with His blood and suffering.

 

[Davidpt]

It's not saying Satan would literally not deceive anyone during the thousand year

Yes it is saying that. After all, that is what the phrase 'no more' means throughout the book of Revelation.

For exaxple.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

The way you are interpreting 'no more' in Revelation 20:3 you would have us believe that verse 21 above should be understood like such?

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found some more but less than before. Rather than, shall be found no more at all, as in it no longer exists, end of story, nothing to debate, nothing to dispute.

Why do you think it is being consistent, thus not cherry picking, to interpret 9 passages in Revelation involving 'no more' in the same manner then treating the 10th passage in an entirely different manner altogether?

You contradict the fact that satan doesn't deceive the nations again until he is loosed from his prison. Yet, you have him still deceiving the nations while he is imprisoned, the fact reality 100% proves that nations are still being deceived as we speak. And that you have satan imprisoned as we speak. Why does he even need to be bound if he can do the same things when he is bound that he can do when he is not bound? Where is the logic in that, that there is no difference between being bound and being loosed, that they mean the same thing? That it isn't a contradiction that bound and loosed mean the same thing?

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes it is saying that.

No, it's not, David. It's talking about his ability to deceive the nations (obviously)... which means, David, deceiving people-groups, Gentile people-groups, not individuals. This was Jesus's commissioning of His disciples ~ and all of us, by extension ~ to "go therefore and make disciples of all nations" at the end of His public ministry and after His resurrection. And we see it again in Acts 1, where, just before Jesus's ascension to heaven at the right hand of the Father, He says to them, "you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

You contradict the fact that satan doesn't deceive the nations again until he is loosed from his prison.

The fact is that Satan never deceived the nations again. He will try, certainly, as I said, when he is loosed, but he will be unsuccessful... and defeated finally, by Christ Himself.

Yet, you have him still deceiving the nations while he is imprisoned...

Again, I can't speak for SI, but I don't think this is the case. For me, it's most certainly not.

, the fact reality 100% proves that nations are still being deceived as we speak.

Nope. They are not, else Gentiles would not be coming to Christ. If we are Gentile believers in Christ ~ which I am (and you may be) ~ we are (so I am, and if so then you are) proof-postive that the nations are not being deceived.

And that you have satan imprisoned as we speak.

He is. He is absolutely restricted from deceiving the nations (Gentile people-groups).

Why does he even need to be bound if he can do the same things when he is bound that he can do when he is not bound? Where is the logic in that, that there is no difference between being bound and being loosed, that they mean the same thing? That it isn't a contradiction that bound and loosed mean the same thing?

See above.

Interesting that you don't address me with these things. I mean... not that I need you to or anything like that, but, still... Yeah, interesting, but fair enough.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes it is saying that. After all, that is what the phrase 'no more' means throughout the book of Revelation.

Did you not read my post where I already addressed this? The phrase "no more" does not mean it's talking about Satan's general ability to deceive, as you believe. What it means for him to "deceive the nations" is debatable. Based on how I understand it, I believe he does it "no more" during the thousand years like he had done previously in Old Testament times and then he gets to do it again for a little season when the thousand years are over.

So, I am not interpreting the phrase "no more" any differently than you in the sense that I too believe he is able to deceive the nations no more during the thousand years. That is not what we are disagreeing about, but you can't ever get that through your head. Instead, we disagree about what it means for him to deceive the nations. You think it relates to his general ability to deceive and think his binding results in him being completely incapacitated. I, on the other hand, believe it relates to his ability to keep the world in spiritual darkness the way he was able to do in Old Testament times when he held the power of death and was able to keep people in slavery to the fear of death. He was able to keep the word of God from spreading throughout the world in those times. But, Christ took that power away from him (Hebrews 2:14-15) and the gospel has been spread throughout the world resulting in far more people being saved in NT times compared to OT times because of people bing aware of the hope of eternal life instead of having no hope and being afraid of death as was the case for a vast majority of the world in OT times.

You waste an incredible amount of time making straw man arguments like this one because you don't even understand what we actually disagree about. It's unbelievable.

For exaxple.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

The way you are interpreting 'no more' in Revelation 20:3 you would have us believe that verse 21 above should be understood like such?

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found some more but less than before. Rather than, shall be found no more at all, as in it no longer exists, end of story, nothing to debate, nothing to dispute.

Nope! That doesn't represent how I interpret Revelation 20:3 at all. What a tremendous waste of time for you to create this argument against your straw man. You rarely address what I believe. You do not understand what i believe and that causes you to misrepresent what I believe over and over and over again. So, you waste your time with straw man arguments repeatedly. You can't get that time back.

Why do you think it is being consistent, thus not cherry picking, to interpret 9 passages in Revelation involving 'no more' in the same manner then treating the 10th passage in an entirely different manner altogether?

That's not what I'm doing. You just aren't able to understand what I believe and how I interpret scripture for whatever reason. So, you end up wasting your time making one straw man argument after another instead of addressing what I actually believe.

You contradict the fact that satan doesn't deceive the nations again until he is loosed from his prison.

No, I don't. I never said that at all. I disagree with you about what that means for him to deceive the nations. I do not claim that he does so before he is loosed.

Yet, you have him still deceiving the nations while he is imprisoned, the fact reality 100% proves that nations are still being deceived as we speak.

No, I do not. Not according to how I understand what that means. that's only the case based on how you understand it. You are misrepresenting my view and I'm getting tired of it. In the way I understand it, he does not deceive the nations during the thousand years. I don't care how you understand it or if my view disagrees with that. But, you have no right to act as if I'm purposely going against what the text says. I'm not. I'm just interpreting it differently than you are.

And that you have satan imprisoned as we speak. Why does he even need to be bound if he can do the same things when he is bound that he can do when he is not bound?

Here is your problem! You do not understand why he had to be bound. Do you really think that in NT times he has been doing all the same things that he did in OT times with no difference at all? Do you understand that Jesus took the power of death away from him, as it says in Hebrews 2:14-15? What do you think that means and what effect do you think that had on Satan? Do you know that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8)? Do you thnk He failed to do that? If not, then what do you think that means exactly? How did he destroy the works of the devil?

Where is the logic in that, that there is no difference between being bound and being loosed, that they mean the same thing?

Who is saying that? No one. Why do you wast so much time making straw man arguments? Do you just enjoy wasting your time?

That it isn't a contradiction that bound and loosed mean the same thing?

Yes, it would be if anyone actually claimed that, but no one is claiming that. You are arguing with your imaginary straw man about that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Again, I can't speak for SI, but I don't think this is the case. For me, it's most certainly not.

No, I don't have Satan deceiving the nations while he is imprisoned, either. No one does. That would obviously contradict what it says in Revelation 20 when it indicates that he is bound from deceiving the nations during the thousand years. David misrepresented my view (the Amill view that you also have) throughout his post. He does not seem to put any effort into understanding what we Amills believe, so he just makes one straw man argument after another.

 

[PinSeeker]

He does not seem to put any effort into understanding what we Amills believe, so he just makes one straw man argument after another.

I disagree with that; I think David's posts are at least fairly thoughtful, as opposed to... well, several on here.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I disagree with that; I think David's posts are at least fairly thoughtful, as opposed to... well, several on here.

So, what do you think is the reason he misrepresents Amillennialism so often then?

 

[rebuilder 454]

l

No need to project some imagined emotionalism. I told you . . . I'm out. I'm not interested.

Much love!

Put all Three of them on ignore.

Let them fellowship in their own goooo

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

l
Put all Three of them on ignore.

Let them fellowship in their own goooo

Yes, put those who can actually exegete scripture and make coherent arguments on ignore, so you all can share your unintelligible gibberish with each other while believing whatever you want to believe instead of what is taught in scripture.

 

[Zao is life]

No, it's not, David.

Yes, it is @PinSeeker

It's giving the reason why John is seeing Satan being bound, saying that Satan will be able to deceive the nations NO MORE - then it uses the word UNTIL: Until the thousand years are finished.

The father of lies was only ever able to deceive any human beings through the power they give his lying words through their belief in his lying words.

If Satan is bound from deceiving the nations it means there will be only the Word of God being taught in the world.

You Amil guys think that because you choose not to believe scripture without corrupting its meaning, you can pull the wool over our eyes too.

If Satan is currently bound so that he is no more able to deceive the nations then you are ascribing to human beings who teach lying words that contradict the Word of God, the name "Satan". Together they all make up the spirit of Satan, according to your doctrine.

Satan being unable to deceive has NOTHING to do with Christ's defeat of Satan's power over death (which will last for ever and ever).

THOSE WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST VS THOSE WHO DO NOT WORSHIP THE BEAST. THE END OF THE AGE SUMMARIZED.

KEY WORDS

* The battle of that great day of God Almighty / Armageddon.
* River Euphrates.
* Year, month, day, and hour.
* Fire, smoke and brimstone coming out of the mouths of the horses.
* Unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouths of the beast, false prophet, and dragon.
* One third of men killed.
* The rest who were not killed by these plagues.

REVELATION 9 (6th TRUMPET)

13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

REVELATION 16 (6th PLAGUE)

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

REVELATION 14 (THOSE WHO WORSHIPED THE BEAST)

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

REVELATION 9 (6th TRUMPET)

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

REVELATION 19:20-21 & 20:1-3 (CHRIST RETURNS)

The rest are killed, the beast and false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone, and Satan is bound for a thousand years:

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the rest were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

REVELATION 20 (THOSE WHO DID NOT WORSHIP THE BEAST)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes, it is @PinSeeker

It's giving the reason why John is seeing Satan being bound, saying that Satan will be able to deceive the nations NO MORE - then it uses the word UNTIL: Until the thousand years are finished.

Yes, 'until.' You can read what I said to David regarding 'until,' Zao, in this post in a related thread.

From the rest of what you say here, I'm going to pick out one thing:

REVELATION 19:20-21 & 20:1-3 (CHRIST RETURNS)

You will probably disagree with this, but, generally speaking, John's visions in Revelation are cyclical and concurrent from Revelation 6 through Revelation 21, and to Revelation 19 and 20 specifically. So:

a) I agree that we see Christ returning in Revelation 19...

...(actually starting in verse 11 ~ some have interpreted the imagery as a reference to the spread of Christ’s rule through submission to the gospel, but the parallels with Revelation 16:14, 16; Revelation 17:14; and Revelation 20:7-10 show that the final battle is primarily in view...​

...so Revelation 19:11-21) symbolically portrayed,

b) I hold that in Revelation 20:1-3 we see Christ's first coming. now 2000-plus years ago, symbolically portrayed. This is the context in which He said, "if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man?"... and just before His ascension says to His disciples (and all of us by extension, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Even in disagreeing with what I say here, you really cannot with any credibility say that it cannot be logically or sensibly or reasonably or even grammatically ~ or maybe rather stylistically ~ be seen this way.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

No, I don't have Satan deceiving the nations while he is imprisoned, either. No one does. That would obviously contradict what it says in Revelation 20 when it indicates that he is bound from deceiving the nations during the thousand years. David misrepresented my view (the Amill view that you also have) throughout his post. He does not seem to put any effort into understanding what we Amills believe, so he just makes one straw man argument after another.

Come on now, quit pretending here that reality, thus in the real world, does not expose that you are doing that. In the real world, as we speak, nations are still being deceived by satan and that you have satan in the pit at the same time. It doesn't matter per your view that the pit is not literal. That is not the point. The point is that satan is bound so that he can't deceive the nations again until he is no longer bound. Except you have him still deceiving the nations while he is bound, the fact reality shows, that in the real world, nations are still being deceived as we speak. That logically equals satan is deceiving the nations while he is bound, which then makes no sense that you are denying it means that. When I say you have him deceiving the nations while he is bound is because reality proves you do, unless you are going to move the goal post and now start arguing that not one nation is being deceived by satan during your millennium, which then contradicts reality.

For some reason you think only the nations he doesn't deceive during your proposed millennium is relevant. Then disregard the nations he deceives during your proposed millennium, that this is not relevant. Why isn't the latter relevant? Though, the former might not contradict this---that he should deceive the nations no more, you can't use that same argument and insist the latter also doesn't contradict it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Come on now, quit pretending here that reality, thus in the real world, does not expose that you are doing that. In the real world, as we speak, nations are still being deceived by satan and that you have satan in the pit at the same time.

David, stop being so ignorant. I'm talking from my Amil perspective and you know it. What I said is true from my Amil perspective. I don't care if it contradicts your Premil perspective. That is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter per your view that the pit is not literal. That is not the point. The point is that satan is bound so that he can't deceive the nations again until he is no longer bound. Except you have him still deceiving the nations while he is bound, the fact reality shows, that in the real world, nations are still being deceived as we speak.

In my understanding of what that means, which is different than yours, he is not doing that. In Old Testament times he basically had no restrictions on what he was allowed to do. He was able to keep a vast majority of the world in slavery to the fear of death (Hebrews 2:14-15). He was able to keep the light of the word of God from shining on most of the world. That all changed after Jesus, the light of the world, came to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8) by bringing light into an almost completely dark world that previously had "no hope" and was "without God in the world" (Eph 2:11-12). Jesus took the power of death away from Satan (Heb 2:14) so that people could then have the hope of eternal life and not have to fear death anymore.

That logically equals satan is deceiving the nations while he is bound, which then makes no sense that you are denying it means that.

What I'm denying is your understanding of Revelation 20.

When I say you have him deceiving the nations while he is bound is because reality proves you do, unless you are going to move the goal post and now start arguing that not one nation is being deceived by satan during your millennium, which then contradicts reality.

You are being foolish here. You are acting as if I claim that Satan has been bound from deceiving at all and you know that is not what I claim. Why do you never address what I actually believe and instead make nothing but straw man arguments?

 

[PinSeeker]

What "deceiving the nations," as John presents it in Revelation 20, really doesn't have anything directly to do with one's view of God's millennium and its true timeframe, whatever one thinks it is. I would say, though, that if one understands correctly what "deceiving the nations" there is will ~ should, anyway ~ strongly influence one's understanding of the timeframe of the millennium.

@Davidpt Maybe it's... in response <smile> ...but I sense your tone, um, changing... I mean, certainly, no one here has to answer to me or any other poster here, and I mean this for me as much as anyone else here, but, well, grace is grace, and we're supposed to be Christians, and... you get it, I'm sure.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Zao is life]

Even in disagreeing with what I say here, you really cannot with any credibility say that it cannot be logically or sensibly or reasonably or even grammatically ~ or maybe rather stylistically ~ be seen this way.

Grace and peace to you.

Logically and grammatically it cannot be seen that way, and the arguments that you Amil guys make in defense of what you say are neither logical nor grammatically correct, but are extremely weak - even to the point of being comically weak.

The places where you place your division of the cycles that do indeed exist in the Revelation, are false because of your choice to believe what you say, despite what the scripture says.

With regard to grammar and the metaphor used, the metaphor which is being used in Revelation 20:1-3 regarding Satan's binding - chains, a key to the abyss and a seal set on him - implies that he is totally incapacitated in terms of his ability to 'speak' lying words of deception to the nations.

The other extremely weak argument you always bring up is what Jesus said about binding the strong man.

In Mark chapter 3 we read:

"The experts in the law who came down from Jerusalem said (of Jesus),"By the ruler of demons he casts out demons.", and "He is possessed by Beelzebul,". So he called them and spoke to them in parables:

"How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom will not be able to stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan rises against himself and is divided, he is not able to stand and his end has come. But no one is able to enter a strong man's house and steal his property unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can thoroughly plunder his house." (Mark 3:22-27)

Jesus was speaking to them in parables, but Amillennialists choose to take it up literally. Of course, "binding the strong man" is only being used as an illustration by Jesus. It has nothing to do with a binding of Satan "until" a specific time is up. What would happen to the man who was delivered of demon-possession when that time is up?

But of course "the house" in Jesus' parable represents the demon-possessed man out of whom Jesus had cast out demons (not "the nations"). It's an extremely weak argument.

Besides this, the casting out of demons was taking place before and after Jesus' death and resurrection - which is important to your argument - because the other extremely weak and nonsensical argument Amillennialists bring up, is the way you guys equate Satan's being bound for a period of time so that he will be unable to deceive the nations with the fact that Jesus through His own death for sins and resurrection of the dead destroyed Satan's power over death forever and ever (it's also not talking about a temporary period linked to the word "until" and to the loosing of Satan again after the period is finished).

Besides this, In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind.

Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."

The reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world"; and in Ephesians 2:2 Paul calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13).

The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" (John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

All of which was written to the new converts decades before the Revelation was even given. And once the Revelation was given, Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray Satan having great rage once he had been cast to the earth because he knows that his time is limited, and the warning of woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea is given as a result, and this current status quo spans the entire present Age in Revelation chapters 12-13, culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).

Logically and grammatically, to change the meaning of Satan being bound SO THAT he should deceive the nations NO MORE UNTIL the thousand years during which he will be bound is finished, is to mess with all the scriptures which talk about Satan's deception of the world and his activities in the world. And this is what Amillennialists ALL do - using comically weak arguments as they stumble along trying to prove their position, even while believing that you are sailing along "proving your position".

Well you've all pulled the wool over your own eyes - but you cannot pull the wool over the eyes of anyone who sees how illogical your arguments are and how your arguments defy grammar and mess with scripture as you go along changing the meaning of what is written in scripture so as to attempt to have scripture comply with Amil theology.

 

[PinSeeker]

Logically and grammatically it cannot be seen that way...

It can. But stubbornly it cannot... <smile> ...or will not.

Maybe David will respond; I'd like to hear from him on it. But if he doesn't... <shrug>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

The places where you place your division of the cycles that do indeed exist in the Revelation, are false because of your choice to believe what you say, despite what the scripture says.

In your... humble <smile> ...opinion. Yeah, ummm... noted.

Grace and peace, Zao!

 

[WPM]

Logically and grammatically it cannot be seen that way, and the arguments that you Amil guys make in defense of what you say are neither logical nor grammatically correct, but are extremely weak - even to the point of being comically weak.

The places where you place your division of the cycles that do indeed exist in the Revelation, are false because of your choice to believe what you say, despite what the scripture says.

With regard to grammar and the metaphor used, the metaphor which is being used in Revelation 20:1-3 regarding Satan's binding - chains, a key to the abyss and a seal set on him - implies that he is totally incapacitated in terms of his ability to 'speak' lying words of deception to the nations.

The other extremely weak argument you always bring up is what Jesus said about binding the strong man.

In Mark chapter 3 we read:

"The experts in the law who came down from Jerusalem said (of Jesus),"By the ruler of demons he casts out demons.", and "He is possessed by Beelzebul,". So he called them and spoke to them in parables:

"How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom will not be able to stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan rises against himself and is divided, he is not able to stand and his end has come. But no one is able to enter a strong man's house and steal his property unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can thoroughly plunder his house." (Mark 3:22-27)

Jesus was speaking to them in parables, but Amillennialists choose to take it up literally. Of course, "binding the strong man" is only being used as an illustration by Jesus. It has nothing to do with a binding of Satan "until" a specific time is up. What would happen to the man who was delivered of demon-possession when that time is up?

But of course "the house" in Jesus' parable represents the demon-possessed man out of whom Jesus had cast out demons (not "the nations"). It's an extremely weak argument.

Besides this, the casting out of demons was taking place before and after Jesus' death and resurrection - which is important to your argument - because the other extremely weak and nonsensical argument Amillennialists bring up, is the way you guys equate Satan's being bound for a period of time so that he will be unable to deceive the nations with the fact that Jesus through His own death for sins and resurrection of the dead destroyed Satan's power over death forever and ever (it's also not talking about a temporary period linked to the word "until" and to the loosing of Satan again after the period is finished).

Besides this, In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind.

Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."

The reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world"; and in Ephesians 2:2 Paul calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13).

The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" (John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

All of which was written to the new converts decades before the Revelation was even given. And once the Revelation was given, Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray Satan having great rage once he had been cast to the earth because he knows that his time is limited, and the warning of woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea is given as a result, and this current status quo spans the entire present Age in Revelation chapters 12-13, culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).

Logically and grammatically, to change the meaning of Satan being bound SO THAT he should deceive the nations NO MORE UNTIL the thousand years during which he will be bound is finished, is to mess with all the scriptures which talk about Satan's deception of the world and his activities in the world. And this is what Amillennialists ALL do - using comically weak arguments as they stumble along trying to prove their position, even while believing that you are sailing along "proving your position".

Well you've all pulled the wool over your own eyes - but you cannot pull the wool over the eyes of anyone who sees how illogical your arguments are and how your arguments defy grammar and mess with scripture as you go along changing the meaning of what is written in scripture so as to attempt to have scripture comply with Amil theology.

This is all noise.

A brick prison cannot hold spirits, physical metal chains cannot inhibit spirits.

 

[Davidpt]

This is all noise.

A brick prison cannot hold spirits, physical metal chains cannot inhibit spirits.

Don't Amils, such as yourself, realize that the LOF is a prison, for example? You seem to think there is no such thing as a prison that can imprison spirit beings. What about the lost when they die? Are they walking around among us in an unseen state since there is no such thing in another realm as prisons that can imprison spirit beings?