Hidden in plain sight: Why I believe this about the Revelation

[WPM]

Don't Amils, such as yourself, realize that the LOF is a prison, for example? You seem to think there is no such thing as a prison that can imprison spirit beings. What about the lost when they die? Are they walking around among us in an unseen state since there is no such thing in another realm as prisons that can imprison spirit beings?

The abyss is not geographical place. It is a spiritual state of restraint.

 

[WPM]

Don't Amils, such as yourself, realize that the LOF is a prison, for example? You seem to think there is no such thing as a prison that can imprison spirit beings. What about the lost when they die? Are they walking around among us in an unseen state since there is no such thing in another realm as prisons that can imprison spirit beings?

You avoided this above, as you normally do.

Revelation 20:2 makes clear, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations [Gr. ethnos] no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

Scripture often makes broad general sweeping statements. When Scripture tells us that the Gentiles would no longer be deceived it does not mean every single one of them, or even most of them, would be saved, just that the spiritual ignorance would be finally lifted from the darkened Gentiles. This relates to the Gospel light going out to the Gentiles (ethnos). Before the cross they were in darkness; now they are enlightened. They are without excuse. The answer to darkness every time is light.

With the Lord’s First Advent, the light began to shine brightly. Jesus confronted, overcame and dispelled the darkness at every turn. Satan was defeated on his own turf. Jesus bound Satan in spiritual chains. He limited his authority and influence over the Gentile nations and invaded his kingdom with the truth. Since the binding of Satan, the devil has not been able to prevent the spread of the Gospel to the nations, to keep the truth from shining bright on the once-blinded heathen or keep the Gentiles in spiritual darkness like they were in Old Testament times. Now the rest of the world has the opportunity to repent and receive deliverance and freedom. Satan's authority to deceive has been broken over countless millions since Calvary.

We see this with the special assignment that Jesus gave Paul in Acts 26:17-18: “Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

Did this mean the deception that blinded the Gentiles would be finally be lifted from all the darkened Gentiles? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Jesus, here, directly links the spiritual darkness enveloping the Gentiles to the power of Satan. He connects the Gentiles turning from darkness to light through the advance of the great commission to the deliverance of the Gentiles from the bondage or chains of Satan. This is how the gross darkness would be (and was) removed that hung over the Gentiles throughout the old covenant period. This is how they were delivered from the power of Satan to God to liberty in Christ.

 

[Davidpt]

The abyss is not geographical place. It is a spiritual state of restraint.

Then you should be able to explain why the legion of demons feared to be sent to the abyss before their time if it is just simply a spiritual state of restraint rather than a literal place of some kind. Were the swine they were cast into and the lake the swine drown in, literal things and a literal place?

Are you going to argue that the Greek word 'abussos' means one thing in Luke 8:31 but means something entirely different in Revelation 20?

 

[WPM]

Then you should be able to explain why the legion of demons feared to be sent to the abyss before their time if it is just simply a spiritual state of restraint rather than a literal place of some kind. Were the swine they were cast into and the lake the swine drown in, literal things and a literal place?

Are you going to argue that the Greek word 'abussos' means one thing in Luke 8:31 but means something entirely different in Revelation 20?

Yes, a spiritual state of restraint. It was not their time to go to the abyss. That occurred after the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Logically and grammatically it cannot be seen that way, and the arguments that you Amil guys make in defense of what you say are neither logical nor grammatically correct, but are extremely weak - even to the point of being comically weak.

LOL! You have gone off the deep end with your nonsense.

The places where you place your division of the cycles that do indeed exist in the Revelation, are false because of your choice to believe what you say, despite what the scripture says.

With regard to grammar and the metaphor used, the metaphor which is being used in Revelation 20:1-3 regarding Satan's binding - chains, a key to the abyss and a seal set on him - implies that he is totally incapacitated in terms of his ability to 'speak' lying words of deception to the nations.

Those symbols do not imply that he is completely incapacitated. That's complete nonsense. Instead, they imply that he is indeed prevented from deceiving the nations, but what that means exactly is debatable. You obviously assume it is talking about his general ability to deceive and it results in him not being able to deceive, to persecute believers or to do anything at all. But, you seem to miss that the dragon is bound with "a great chain". If Satan was supposed to be completely incapacitated and unable to move or do anything, wouldn't it describe the dragon as being bound with a small or short chain instead? That he is bound with a great or large chain shows that his activity and mobility is not completely restricted as you falsely believe.

The other extremely weak argument you always bring up is what Jesus said about binding the strong man.

In Mark chapter 3 we read:

"The experts in the law who came down from Jerusalem said (of Jesus),"By the ruler of demons he casts out demons.", and "He is possessed by Beelzebul,". So he called them and spoke to them in parables:

"How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom will not be able to stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan rises against himself and is divided, he is not able to stand and his end has come. But no one is able to enter a strong man's house and steal his property unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can thoroughly plunder his house." (Mark 3:22-27)

Jesus was speaking to them in parables, but Amillennialists choose to take it up literally. Of course, "binding the strong man" is only being used as an illustration by Jesus. It has nothing to do with a binding of Satan "until" a specific time is up. What would happen to the man who was delivered of demon-possession when that time is up?

But of course "the house" in Jesus' parable represents the demon-possessed man out of whom Jesus had cast out demons (not "the nations"). It's an extremely weak argument.

Besides this, the casting out of demons was taking place before and after Jesus' death and resurrection - which is important to your argument - because the other extremely weak and nonsensical argument Amillennialists bring up, is the way you guys equate Satan's being bound for a period of time so that he will be unable to deceive the nations with the fact that Jesus through His own death for sins and resurrection of the dead destroyed Satan's power over death forever and ever (it's also not talking about a temporary period linked to the word "until" and to the loosing of Satan again after the period is finished).

Tell me, does the binding of the strong man result in him being completely incapacitated? Clearly not, right? So, why do you think that has to be the case for Satan in Revelation 20?

Besides this, In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind.

Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."

The reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world"; and in Ephesians 2:2 Paul calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13).

The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" (John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

All of which was written to the new converts decades before the Revelation was even given. And once the Revelation was given, Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray Satan having great rage once he had been cast to the earth because he knows that his time is limited, and the warning of woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea is given as a result, and this current status quo spans the entire present Age in Revelation chapters 12-13, culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).

Logically and grammatically, to change the meaning of Satan being bound SO THAT he should deceive the nations NO MORE UNTIL the thousand years during which he will be bound is finished, is to mess with all the scriptures which talk about Satan's deception of the world and his activities in the world. And this is what Amillennialists ALL do - using comically weak arguments as they stumble along trying to prove their position, even while believing that you are sailing along "proving your position".

Well you've all pulled the wool over your own eyes - but you cannot pull the wool over the eyes of anyone who sees how illogical your arguments are and how your arguments defy grammar and mess with scripture as you go along changing the meaning of what is written in scripture so as to attempt to have scripture comply with Amil theology.

LOL. Nothing but hot air here. There's no spiritual discernment to be found in your words whatsoever. You use human wisdom to interpret text in a highly symbolic book as literally as possible. A very unwise approach, to say the least.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is all noise.

A brick prison cannot hold spirits, physical metal chains cannot inhibit spirits.

Right. Premills don't understand that it's talking about a dragon being bound with a great chain in a prison. Why would they take that literally? Satan is not a physical being and cannot be literally bound with a literal chain in a literal prison or bottomless pit (abyss). All of that symbolizes his spiritual binding. Premills just don't get that at all. They also ignore that the dragon is bound with a great chain. They act as if he is bound with a small chain that completely restrains his movement and activity. But, it specifically mentions that it's "a great chain" to show that it's not talking about Satan being completely incapacitated, as Premills falsely believe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Don't Amils, such as yourself, realize that the LOF is a prison, for example? You seem to think there is no such thing as a prison that can imprison spirit beings. What about the lost when they die? Are they walking around among us in an unseen state since there is no such thing in another realm as prisons that can imprison spirit beings?

Do you actually think it's talking about him being bound with a literal chain? Why would a spirit being need to be literally chained up? If he is bound in a literal place wouldn't there be boundaries of that literal place that he couldn't cross? I would think so. So, why would there be a need for a literal chain? There wouldn't be.

I'm sure you don't think he will be literally chained up in the lake of fire, yet no one would claim that he can escape from there. So, unless you think he will have to be literally chained up in the lake of fire, why would you think he has to be literally chained up in order to be bound in a prison that has a seal over it? You are missing the symbolism there. His binding has nothing to do with being literally chained up in a literal place that prevents him from doing anything at all.

And, speaking of the chain, why would it be "a great chain" if it supposedly will completely incapacitate him and make him immobile and unable to do anything? Wouldn't it make more sense for it to be a small chain instead that can't be extended at all?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then you should be able to explain why the legion of demons feared to be sent to the abyss before their time if it is just simply a spiritual state of restraint rather than a literal place of some kind. Were the swine they were cast into and the lake the swine drown in, literal things and a literal place?

Are you going to argue that the Greek word 'abussos' means one thing in Luke 8:31 but means something entirely different in Revelation 20?

In Luke 8:31 the abyss (Greek: abussos) was contrasted with the man's body that they were possessing. Being cast out of his body would result in them being cast into the abyss. So, the abyss seems to just be the area outside of the man's body that they would dwell. The abyss might just be the spiritual realm outside of heaven which Satan and his angels were cast out of long ago. It does not have to refer to some very distant place apart from the earth that they would go to, as some people assume.

But, instead of Jesus just casting them out of the man into the abyss, he allowed them to go into the pigs instead. Which means being in the pigs was what meant that they were not in the abyss. That suggests that the abyss was just the surrounding spiritual realm and not some distant place.

In the parallel account in Mark 5, it indicates that they were not wanting to be cast out of that particular area, so the idea that the abyss refers to some very distant place is not supported by the text.

Mark 5:9 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” ”My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” 10 And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area. 11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

The demons were apparently fearful of being cast out of that area into other areas where it would be more difficult to find people that they could possess.

 

[WPM]

Right. Premills don't understand that it's talking about a dragon being bound with a great chain in a prison. Why would they take that literally? Satan is not a physical being and cannot be literally bound with a literal chain in a literal prison or bottomless pit (abyss). All of that symbolizes his spiritual binding. Premills just don't get that at all. They also ignore that the dragon is bound with a great chain. They act as if he is bound with a small chain that completely restrains his movement and activity. But, it specifically mentions that it's "a great chain" to show that it's not talking about Satan being completely incapacitated, as Premills falsely believe.

... and Satan is not a real dragon or a real serpent. Hello! This is figurative language.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

... and Satan is not a real dragon or a real serpent. Hello! This is figurative language.

Right. It's all figurative. A dragon being chained up with a great chain in a prison is all figurative language to describe Satan's binding. If not for doctrinal bias, no one would miss that. Premills also ignore that he is bound with "a great chain". They interpret it instead as a very small or short chain that can't be extended at all which prevents him from being able to move or do anything at all.

But, "a great chain" implies that he is mobile. It implies that he is restrained to a certain extent, but not completely. Prisoners in a prison can't go beyond the prison walls, but they are allowed to go outside and walk around and work out and so on. They can go to the cafeteria to eat. They can have visitors. They are allowed to do certain things, but are restrained and limited in what they can do rather than being completely incapacitated. That is how Satan's binding is portrayed, but Premills don't acknowledge it.