HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT: Why I believe this about the timing of the NHNE

[WPM]

Do you believe in Christ? Because none of the above supports Amil.

Do you believe the gospel?

Because if you do, you would not be conflating the gospel with your Amil false doctrines and believing that mixing truth with falsehood = truth.

So do you believe the gospel?

If so, why do you ask 15 gospel questions that have no support for your Amil false doctrine?

Answer your own questions yourself. I have no time for explaining to you what you cannot hear - the fact that mixing truth with error the way you do = Amillennialism.

Answer these questions for me:

Do you believe in Christ?
Do you believe that God's Word is above all things?
Do you place God's Word in Christ above all men's theologies and doctrines? (If you say yes, you are a liar - because you have placed your own theology and doctrines above the Word of God in Christ, as is plain by your theologies).

PS: I'm not going to reply to any more of your responses because in my opinion it's an annoying waste of time. I won't read any more of your posts. NOR do I need to answer your questions when you produce long posts mixing truth with falsehood - even though you then correctly call the result "Amillennialism".

1. Do you believe that God “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” (Ephesians 1:11)?
2. Do you believe that God's “counsel shall stand” and He “will do all” His good “pleasure” and because He has “spoken it’ He “will also bring it to pass” and because He has “purposed it” He “will also do it” (Isaiah 46:9-11)?
3. Do you believe “what” God’s “soul desireth, even that he doeth” – “he performeth the thing that is appointed for me” (Job 23:13-14)?
4. Do you believe that God “doeth according to his will … and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” (Daniel 4:34-35)? Or as the NKJV says: “No one can restrain His hand or say to Him, "What have You done?"
5. Do you believe that Jesus currently possesses “All power [or authority] … in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18)?
6. Do you believe that “All things that the Father hath are” Christ’s (John 16:15)?
7. Do you believe that the Father has indeed given Jesus “power over all flesh” (John 17:2)?
8. Do you believe that “All things are delivered” unto Jesus of His “Father” (Matthew 11:27) and that He has “given all things into his (Christ’s) hand” (John 3:35 and John 13:3)?
9. Do you believe that Jesus “is the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10)?
10. Do you believe that “angels and authorities and powers [are] being made subject unto him” (1 Peter 3:22 says)?
11. Do you believe that Christ has become "the ruler of God’s creation" (Revelation 3:14)?
12. Do you believe that our Lord is indeed "the ruler of the kings of the earth" (Revelation 1:5)?
13. Do you believe what it says in 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 and Ephesians 1:20- that God “hath put (present tense) all things under his feet” and what Hebrews 1:8 tells us that He “hast put all things (present tense) in subjection under his feet”?
14. Do you believe that Jesus has already "spoiled principalities and powers ... made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it (the cross)" (Colossians 2:15)?
15. Do you believe that Christ currently “openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" (Revelation 3:7)?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I see Zechariah chapters 12 & 14 as being A prophecy describing the events of the seventh trumpet and the conditions that follow, connected to Christ and His Kingdom that has come and His Kingdom that is coming (Zechariah 13) - which I see as metaphorically talking about the NHNE and New Jerusalem - meaning that it's not literally referring to the Feast of Tabernacles etc but is metaphorical language describing New Jerusalem and the NHNE.

Jesus quoted verses from Zechariah 12 and 13 as having a first coming fulfillment, not a second coming fulfillment. Do you not trust that Jesus knew the Old Testament better than any of us do?

Prophecy:

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

First coming fulfillment:

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Prophecy:

Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

First coming fulfillment:

Matthew 26:28 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. 32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee. 33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended. 34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.....56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

 

[WPM]

Do you even realize what is the hope Paul was talking about? It's doubtful. Because you do not seem to understand why those who had been given the covenants and the promises of the coming Messiah had that hope of something that lay in their future,

nor do you understand why that hope is not a different hope that Paul was talking to Gentile believers in the Messiah about

- and it's because you conflate that hope with darkness - which according to you had enough power over God before Jesus came to prevent any Gentiles from believing and converting to faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

What you say above about the darkness in the nations is still the case today. Altogether there are many more Hindus, Budhhists and Muslims in the world than Christians, so the status quo in the world regarding most of the world having no hope - because that hope is IN the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - is still what you describe above.

Why do you just ignore the above fact? You do so only so that you can imply that the Word of God that was in the world before Christ Himself came was not light - because that is INDEED what your argument implies. You are also implying by your invalid argument that all the non-Christians in the world today have the hope that Paul was describing in the passage whose meaning you have corrupted, because according to you "the darkness has been bound and has been unable to deceive the nations".

It's pointless pointing out the many fallacies and logical fallacies in all your Amil arguments though. Because by now I've realized that Amils are incapable of holding biblical scripture above Amil theology. You're all too brainwashed through your faith in falsehood.

1. Premillennialism strips Jesus of His sovereign authority over everything and everyone (including His enemies).
2. Premillennialism dethrones Jesus from His rule at the right hand of majesty on high.
3. Premillennialism rejects the victorious promises of Christ during the intra-Advent.
4. Premillennialism dismisses the success of the great commission.
5. Premillennialism undermines the power and authority of the Church.
6. Premillennialism exalts Satan and wickedness.

Premillennialism is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premillennialists are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premillennialism portrays a BIG devil and a small god; Scripture presents a small devil and a BIG God. In Premillennialism, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premillennialists are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Scripture, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Scripture is always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premillennialism portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Scripture sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Scripture Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Savior.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There you go again. More duplicity. You have no consistent hermeneutics. You're all over the place. You spiritualize the sacrifices when it suits your theology. That is because Premillennialism doesn't make sense. It is extra biblical. It is erroneous and contradictory. That is why Bible student should reject it as error.

Right. He often interprets figurative text literally and literal text figuratively and, like you said, there is no consistency in his hermeneutics. He interprets every verse with doctrinal bias, so even when something is clearly literal, like 2 Peter 3:10-12 or Matthew 24:15-21, he will spiritualize it to make it fit his doctrine. He interprets most of Zechariah 14 literally, but he knows he can't do that with Zechariah 14:16-21, so he says it can't be interpreted literally. Yet, at the same time, he can't even offer a guess as to what it means spiritually.

Also, the foundation of his doctrine is on some of the most difficult to interpret passages in all of scripture, including Zechariah 14. That's how shaky the Premill doctrine is. They have no clear, straightforward scriptures to base their doctrine on, but Amill is based entirely on clear, straightforward scriptures that we use to help interpret the more difficult passages.

 

[Davidpt]

There you go again. More duplicity. You have no consistent hermeneutics. You're all over the place. You spiritualize the sacrifices when it suits your theology. That is because Premillennialism doesn't make sense. It is extra biblical. It is erroneous and contradictory. That is why Bible student should reject it as error.

OK, so you don't spiritualize the animal sacrificing then. Ok, if you say so. I'm being sarcastic of course. In your mind then, why is it ok for you to spiritualize the animal sacrificing but it is not ok for me to do that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1. Premillennialism strips Jesus of His sovereign authority over everything and everyone (including His enemies).
2. Premillennialism dethrones Jesus from His rule at the right hand of majesty on high.
3. Premillennialism rejects the victorious promises of Christ during the intra-Advent.
4. Premillennialism dismisses the success of the great commission.
5. Premillennialism undermines the power and authority of the Church.
6. Premillennialism exalts Satan and wickedness.

Premillennialism is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premillennialists are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premillennialism portrays a BIG devil and a small god; Scripture presents a small devil and a BIG God. In Premillennialism, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premillennialists are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Scripture, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Scripture is always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premillennialism portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Scripture sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Scripture Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Savior.

Absolutely right. Premills repeatedly fail to acknowledge the tremendous impact that Christ's ministry, death, resurrection and gospel has had on Satan in New Testament times. They act as if nothing really changes as it relates to Satan in NT times compared to OT times, which is just utterly ridiculous. Amills see the difference and our doctrine is based on that. In OT times Satan held the power of death and Christ took it away through His death (Hebrews 2:14-15) after which He gave the world the hope of eternal life and that they could be set free from slavery to the fear of death. Premills have no understanding of passages like Hebrews 2:14-15, 1 John 3:8 and Acts 26:17-18 whatsoever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

OK, so you don't spiritualize the animal sacrificing then. Ok, if you say so. I'm being sarcastic of course. In your mind then, why is it ok for you to spiritualize the animal sacrificing but it is not ok for me to do that?

You completely missed his point. Are you even trying to see it? You interpret things literally when it suits your doctrine and figuratively when it suits your doctrine. There is no consistency in your hermeneutics, as he said. Why do you take everything before verse 16 in Zechariah 14 literally and then decide to interpret everything after that figuratively? You do the same thing in Matthew 24. You take everything literally up until verse 14, but then, suddenly, you spiritualize everything. You clearly interpret scripture with doctrinal bias. You have no consistent method of interpretation that you use. That is the point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. Checkmate! Premil is DEAD. The battle has been won. You have nothing to bring to the table anymore. For you to answer any of these questions honestly would absolutely decimate your error. I shared this privately with someone and then you throw the white flag up and hour later.

I will count this a great compliment. You have no rebuttal for Amillennialism. All you have is your the avoidance above. That is your MO. That is the Premil MO. It is the truth that demolishes your theories and speculations.

They never attempt to even answer one of the questions in your list. It's not like you would not find it to be acceptable if they at least answered one or two of the questions instead of all of them. But, they can't even answer any of them. There is so much scripture that their beliefs contradict. If they actually answered those questions honestly, they would be able to see that.

 

[Davidpt]

Right. He often interprets figurative text literally and literal text figuratively and, like you said, there is no consistency in his hermeneutics. He interprets every verse with doctrinal bias, so even when something is clearly literal, like 2 Peter 3:10-12 or Matthew 24:15-21, he will spiritualize it to make it fit his doctrine. He interprets most of Zechariah 14 literally, but he knows he can't do that with Zechariah 14:16-21, so he says it can't be interpreted literally. Yet, at the same time, he can't even offer a guess as to what it means spiritually.

Also, the foundation of his doctrine is on some of the most difficult to interpret passages in all of scripture, including Zechariah 14. That's how shaky the Premill doctrine is. They have no clear, straightforward scriptures to base their doctrine on, but Amill is based entirely on clear, straightforward scriptures that we use to help interpret the more difficult passages.

As to interpreting some of Zechariah 14 literally, and if the NJ is in view at the time, that would mean those that are to come up are not living in that region where the NJ is if they are living in the nations outside of it instead. But somehow, in your mind, verses 16-19 fit the here and now except you can't reasonably explain how they do. You can't explain how verse 12 has already been fulfilled. Until that verse is fulfilled first, nothing in verses 16-19 are fulfilled in the meantime. And if verse 16-19 are meaning after verse 12 is fulfilled in the future, you then can't explain why people would be threatened with plagues all throughout eternity if they fail to come up year to year. Equally, you can not explain how someone can come up from year to year in a single day? Per Amil, once Christ returns, there are no more days to fulfill any of these things.

As to coming up from year to year there is such things as delegates doing that for their nations. So it's not like it has to mean billions and billions of ppl have to come up from year to year.

 

[WPM]

OK, so you don't spiritualize the animal sacrificing then. Ok, if you say so. I'm being sarcastic of course. In your mind then, why is it ok for you to spiritualize the animal sacrificing but it is not ok for me to do that?

Spiritual Israelite summed you up brilliantly a few posts back:

"He interprets every verse with doctrinal bias, so even when something is clearly literal, like 2 Peter 3:10-12 or Matthew 24:15-21, he will spiritualize it to make it fit his doctrine. He interprets most of Zechariah 14 literally, but he knows he can't do that with Zechariah 14:16-21, so he says it can't be interpreted literally. Yet, at the same time, he can't even offer a guess as to what it means spiritually."

This is why we do not take you serious!

 

[WPM]

As to interpreting some of Zechariah 14 literally, and if the NJ is in view at the time, that would mean those that are to come up are not living in that region where the NJ is if they are living in the nations outside of it instead. But somehow, in your mind, verses 16-19 fit the here and now except you can't reasonably explain how they do. You can't explain how verse 12 has already been fulfilled. Until that verse is fulfilled first, nothing in verses 16-19 are fulfilled in the meantime. And if verse 16-19 are meaning after verse 12 is fulfilled in the future, you then can't explain why people would be threatened with plagues all throughout eternity if they fail to come up year to year. Equally, you can not explain how someone can come up from year to year in a single day? Per Amil, once Christ returns, there are no more days to fulfill any of these things.

As to coming up from year to year this is such things as delegates doing that for their nations. So it's not like it has to mean billions and billions of ppl have to come up from year to year.

Zechariah 14 presents more questions and problems for Premil than it creates answers; none more so than confirming the identity and quality of mortal that will inherit the Premil millennial earth. Whilst Premil tries to depict the millennial mortals as righteous or righteous-leaning individuals their support texts present a contrary picture. The mortals that are welcomed onto the new earth in the Premil paradigm are those in Zechariah 14:16-21 who are described as “the families of the earth” who are “left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem.” These are clearly the basest of men that were involved and committed to the destruction of Jerusalem and the cause of God before being ushered into the Premil new earth.

The passage above shows that it will be mandatory for representatives of all the nations to attend the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem every year. If a nation doesn't attend, they will suffer drought.

 

[WPM]

As to interpreting some of Zechariah 14 literally, and if the NJ is in view at the time, that would mean those that are to come up are not living in that region where the NJ is if they are living in the nations outside of it instead. But somehow, in your mind, verses 16-19 fit the here and now except you can't reasonably explain how they do. You can't explain how verse 12 has already been fulfilled. Until that verse is fulfilled first, nothing in verses 16-19 are fulfilled in the meantime. And if verse 16-19 are meaning after verse 12 is fulfilled in the future, you then can't explain why people would be threatened with plagues all throughout eternity if they fail to come up year to year. Equally, you can not explain how someone can come up from year to year in a single day? Per Amil, once Christ returns, there are no more days to fulfill any of these things.

As to coming up from year to year this is such things as delegates doing that for their nations. So it's not like it has to mean billions and billions of ppl have to come up from year to year.

Zechariah 14:16-21 says, “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.”

Strangers/uncircumcised are prohibited here from Jerusalem and the temple!

Joel 3 and Zechariah 14 are two supposed Premillennialist proof-texts. Yet when we compare them, we see they totally conflict. Premils present these as support for their beliefs. You are now trying to answer a question with a question, which I will be happy to do, but please address the contradictions here please. I asked you first.

How can this millennium Premillennialists imagine have “every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles" (Zechariah 14:16-17) yet at the same time because Jerusalem is "holy" place a prohibition that "there shall no strangers pass through her any more" (Joel 3:17) and “No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel” (Ezekiel 44:9)?

Whatever way you look at Premillennialism, it is self-destructive. That is because it is extra-biblical.

Premil contradicts itself at every turn. It doesn't add up. You are avoiding the contradictions existing within Premil in regard to these 2 proof-text passages.

It is talking about salvation coming to Israel "in Christ" 2,000 years ago. It is in turn talking about the spiritual and natural blessings that would come to the Gentiles who embraced Christ. The prophets looked through a glass darkly and described things in terms their listeners could understand.

The inhabitors rather than being believers are actually enemies of Israel that just attacked Jerusalem. Moreover, they are described in this text as “the heathen.”

The term “heathen” (vv 14 & 8) and “nations” (vv 2, 3, 16, 19) in Zechariah 14 actually relate to the same Hebrew word. The word is gowy meaning a foreign nation, the heathen or a Gentile. This word is repeatedly used throughout the Old Testament to describe the broad unregenerate non-Hebrew people. It is the main word used to describe the Gentiles – coming up 561 in the Old Testament.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As to interpreting some of Zechariah 14 literally, and if the NJ is in view at the time, that would mean those that are to come up are not living in that region where the NJ is if they are living in the nations outside of it instead. But somehow, in your mind, verses 16-19 fit the here and now except you can't reasonably explain how they do. You can't explain how verse 12 has already been fulfilled. Until that verse is fulfilled first, nothing in verses 16-19 are fulfilled in the meantime. And if verse 16-19 are meaning after verse 12 is fulfilled in the future, you then can't explain why people would be threatened with plagues all throughout eternity if they fail to come up year to year. Equally, you can not explain how someone can come up from year to year in a single day? Per Amil, once Christ returns, there are no more days to fulfill any of these things.

LOL. This is nothing less than hilarious. Do you ever read anything I say carefully at all? I have said many times that Zechariah 14 is one of the most difficult to interpret passages in all of scripture. Can you not remember me ever saying that to you? I know you forget at least 99% of what I say to you, but come on. No, I am not sure how to explain some of what is written in Zechariah 14. I have acknowledged that many times before.

But, what I have also said is that the foundation of our doctrine should be based on clear, straightforward passages that we can then use to try to help interpret these more difficult passages. You apparently do not share that perspective since Zechariah 14 is probably at the top of the list of the passages you use to try to support Premil other than an assumed literal, chronological interpretation of Revelation 20. You are willing to twist other more clear passages of scripture in favor of your interpretation of Zechariah 14 and other more difficult scriptures. I just think that's a terrible approach to interpreting scripture.

Please tell me the top 5 passages of scripture that you use to support your Premill view. Or the top 2 or 3. Whatever you're willing to do.

As to coming up from year to year this is such things as delegates doing that for their nations. So it's not like it has to mean billions and billions of ppl have to come up from year to year.

See how you try to make scripture say what you want it to say? Nowhere does it say anything about only sending delegates. Where are you getting that from? Where does it even hint at saying that? Nowhere. You're not going to convince anyone of anything with the way you twist Zechariah 14 to fit your doctrine, so why not use other, more clear scripture to support your doctrine instead? Is it because you don't have any? I think so.

Also, what are you saying here? Are you saying that you take Zechariah 14:16-19 literally except that it only applies to delegates from all nations rather than all people? So, are you saying that you think delegates from all nations have to literally go to Jerusalem and literally keep the feast of tabernacles in the future? If not, then explain exactly how you interpret the passage, or, at least, what you think it might mean, so that I don't have to guess.

 

[WPM]

As to interpreting some of Zechariah 14 literally, and if the NJ is in view at the time, that would mean those that are to come up are not living in that region where the NJ is if they are living in the nations outside of it instead. But somehow, in your mind, verses 16-19 fit the here and now except you can't reasonably explain how they do. You can't explain how verse 12 has already been fulfilled. Until that verse is fulfilled first, nothing in verses 16-19 are fulfilled in the meantime. And if verse 16-19 are meaning after verse 12 is fulfilled in the future, you then can't explain why people would be threatened with plagues all throughout eternity if they fail to come up year to year. Equally, you can not explain how someone can come up from year to year in a single day? Per Amil, once Christ returns, there are no more days to fulfill any of these things.

As to coming up from year to year there is such things as delegates doing that for their nations. So it's not like it has to mean billions and billions of ppl have to come up from year to year.

Zechariah 14:16-21 says, “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.”

In keeping with the Amil understanding of this reading, Egypt continued to exist after the First Advent. Those within that ancient nation that refuse to yield to Christ will one join that rebellion throng throughout time that are condemned at the final judgment. It should be noted, Jerusalem will be holy and no strangers will pass through her anymore. The word interpreted “strangers” means foreigner or profane. Yet the Premil understanding of Jerusalem is quite the contrary. It sees countless rebellious strangers visiting it from the nations will go from year to year. Egypt is alive and kicking here!

Joel 3:12-19 says, “Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness"

There is no avoiding the fact that there will be no Egypt left to populate a future millennium at Christ's second coming. This is a constant point in Scripture. You need to acknowledge this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Zechariah 14:16-21 says, “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.”

In keeping with the Amil understanding of this reading, Egypt continued to exist after the First Advent. Those within that ancient nation that refuse to yield to Christ will one join that rebellion throng throughout time that are condemned at the final judgment. It should be noted, Jerusalem will be holy and no strangers will pass through her anymore. The word interpreted “strangers” means foreigner or profane. Yet the Premil understanding of Jerusalem is quite the contrary. It sees countless rebellious strangers visiting it from the nations will go from year to year. Egypt is alive and kicking here!

Joel 3:12-19 says, “Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness"

There is no avoiding the fact that there will be no Egypt left to populate a future millennium at Christ's coming. This is a constant point in Scripture. You need to acknowledge this.

Good point. If they want to base their doctrine primarily on OT scriptures like these then they need to show how these scriptures can be reconciled. One passage talks about the families of Egypt going to Jerusalem and another talks about Egypt being a desolation. But, Premills relate both passages to the thousand years. Obviously, no families from Egypt can go to Jerusalem if it is desolate, so it's not possible that Zechariah 14 and Joel 3 could be talking about the same time period.

 

[WPM]

Good point. If they want to base their doctrine primarily on OT scriptures like these then they need to show how these scriptures can be reconciled. One passage talks about the families of Egypt going to Jerusalem and another talks about Egypt being a desolation. But, Premills relate both passages to the thousand years. Obviously, no families from Egypt can go to Jerusalem if it is desolate, so it's not possible that Zechariah 14 and Joel 3 could be talking about the same time period.

Welcome to Premillennialism! It is a manipulation of Scripture. Anything that gets in the way is explained away or spiritualized away.

 

[WPM]

Good point. If they want to base their doctrine primarily on OT scriptures like these then they need to show how these scriptures can be reconciled. One passage talks about the families of Egypt going to Jerusalem and another talks about Egypt being a desolation. But, Premills relate both passages to the thousand years. Obviously, no families from Egypt can go to Jerusalem if it is desolate, so it's not possible that Zechariah 14 and Joel 3 could be talking about the same time period.

Another is Isaiah 56:6-7: “the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.”

Premil "proof-texts" contradict each other. In one breath Premils have Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16-21) and the temple (Isaiah 56:6-7) opened up to the Gentiles (Strangers/uncircumcised) for their millennial celebrations, yet in other passages they are expressly forbidden entry.

Of course, in reality, this is a First Advent passage.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Another is Isaiah 56:6-7: “the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.”

Premil "proof-texts" contradict each other. In one breath Premils have Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16-21) and the temple (Isaiah 56:6-7) opened up to the Gentiles (Strangers/uncircumcised) for their millennial celebrations, yet in other passages they are expressly forbidden entry.

Of course, in reality, this is a First Advent passage.

Agree. That reminds me of how most Premills who interpret Zechariah 14 as occurring after Christ returns while relating it to Revelation 20 also see Zechariah 12 and 13 as having a future fulfillment. Yet, verses like Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:7 are quoted by Jesus as having a first coming fulfillment. But, will they acknowledge that? Of course not. They still insist that Zechariah 12 and 13 have a future fulfillment in relation to the second coming despite the scriptural evidence being against it. So, clearly, no matter what we say about Zechariah 14 they will still insist that it has a future fulfillment. But, do they have any clear, straightforward scriptures to confirm that? No. Not at all.

 

[Zao is life]

LOL. Checkmate!

That's your problem, and the reason why I don't read what you say. You just proved yet again that you do not have enough respect for the scriptures not to realize it's not a matter of playing chess. Hence your abuse of the way you use scripture, in that most of the time the scriptures you quote do not say what you assert they are saying, but you assert the false doctrine based on your seemingly deliberate misinterpretations anyway, because you love your false doctrines more than scripture, and you think the Bible is your chess board.

 

[Zao is life]

You need to believe the words of CHRIST = "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit he CANNOT enter the Kingdom of God."

I believe the above words without corrupting their meaning. You believe the corruption of the above words.

Being born is not being raised from the dead - whether of the flesh, or being born anew of the Spirit.

I believe the Word of God and I believe IN the Word of God and I know that my soul was not "resurrected from the dead" when the eternal Spirit of God gave me eternal life IN CHRIST in the day I was born of His Spirit.

You continue to hang onto the false doctrine that equates the above with a resurrection from the dead. No one's going to stop you.