Homosexuality and The Church

[Robbie]

Remember this homey, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

"He is"

 

[Joshua David]

Nope... I confess my sin... I say, "God be merciful to me a sinner" unlike the pharisee who trusted in himself that he was righteous.... I would say someone is more defending their sinful lifestyle when they aren't even willing to acknowledge their sin... actually believing they're living a sin free life... so what I'm doing is acknowledging the sinful state of humanity and recognizing that apart from Christ becoming our righteousness by covering our sins with His blood there is no hope of reconciliation.

Because of this I give Him all the GLORY because I recognize my salvation is only because of Him... this is not defending sin... this is recognizing sin... and seeing the need for salvation... and recognizing that is only possible by Christ becoming my righteousness.

If anyone wants to think they can enter the Kingdom based on their own righteousness I'd recommend they rethink that one... chances are someone who's a worst sinner than them will be justified before them if they simply are more willing to recognize their need.

Amen!!!!! Go on brother, and preach it.

I do wish more Christians would recognize that we all struggle.. If Paul struggled with his sin even after being saved, then we all struggle, but like you said, some of us are more willing to admit it than others.

Joshua David

 

[Duckybill]

Remember this homey, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

"He is"

There is no sacrifice for willful sin. The warning is clear.

Hebrews 10:26-31 (NKJV)
[sup]26 [/sup]For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, [sup]27 [/sup]but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. [sup]28 [/sup]Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [sup]29 [/sup]Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? [sup]30 [/sup]For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people."[sup]31 [/sup]It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Robbie]

He's not talking about struggling with sins... He's talking about someone who has received Christ and afterwords willfully rejected Him... and I'm not even talking about momentarily rejecting Him... if that was so Peter would have no hope... after all He denied the Lord even after Jesus had said that if anyone denied Him before men He'd deny them before the Father... Peter willfully rejected Christ after receiving the truth... but He said to Peter, "After you've returned to me" which Peter did... So this scripture is talking about those that never return to Him... He's talking about those that have made the decision to trample the Son of God underfoot, count the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insult the Spirit of grace... after they have already received the truth.

That isn't done through confession of sin with the expectation that if we do so He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleans us of all unrighteousness...

That's done through willfully rejecting the reality of what Christ did which can also happen when after we've understood that we were justified by His blood... that we're saved by the Spirit of grace.... then turning back to trusting in our own righteousness for salvation... it's insulting to the Spirit of Grace to think such things... it's considering the blood of the covenant a common thing to start to believe you can be made righteous apart from it... and it's trampling the Son of God underfoot to boast in your own righteousness when the truth is apart from Him we're hopeless.

So like everyone else I've encountered since I've been a Christian who's taken that scripture and twisted it into making those who have failed feel like they should quit... all while deceiving others into trusting in their own righteousness that they're good enough apart from the blood.... you need to grasp the whole message of Christ... and not take one scripture that's kind of hard to understand and based on your misunderstanding of it reject everything else that's said...

Jesus said that the one who confessed their sin and saw their need for mercy went away justified... and not the one who trusted in themselves that they were righteous... to see the truth of that is to give glory to the Spirit of Grace, honor to the blood of the covenant... and the worship the Son of God deserves for being our salvation... He's our righteousness... all glory to Him... PERIOD...

 

[Duckybill]

It's talking about those who "sin willfully". It's quite simple actually.

 

[Robbie]

Yeah... because the whole message of Christ is cancelled out by your twisted interpretation of two words in Hebrews that you took out of context... haha...

 

[[email protected]]

I have a lot to say about this subject, but for the sake of time, or lack thereof, I have to condense my ideas in order to make this as short as possible. I'm working on a sort of expose' of this subject, but I probably won't be able to get a lot of material in one post or even this thread alone...I may be able to express more at a later date. But for now, I just want to present my feelings and get some diverse feedback. Whether you agree with me or not, all feedback is welcomed here.

If there is a single theme that plays out all day long it's the war between the carnal nature and the spirit.

Sin tries to fasten itself upon us like some sort of parasite, sucking the life and health out of us, all the while persuading us that we have a right to satisfy our desires.
The Holy Spirit would have us deny these urges. In doing so we discover true liberty.

Calm voices are raised that suggest we entrust ALL of our being, including our private parts and innermost thoughts, to Christ.
Loud, excited, self-centered voices use every argument in the book, including scripture, to justify themselves and whatever they deem they have a right to do.

It's all about rights. In human society anyway.

Funny thing is that we have no rights in the Kingdom of God. We are expected to give everything to Jesus. The shocker is that He gives a lot back, and then some.
In the end, those that have surrendered all to the King discover they have much much more than they bargained for.

Those who fight vigorously to retain their coveted rights end up losing them all, and I'm not talking about the hereafter. I speak of today. I speak of now.
Bad behavior damages the body, sometimes beyond repair.

A young woman decides to start smoking so as to act like an adult. Thirty years later she tries to quit for the same reason. Meanwhile her body has suffered damage that cannot be reversed. She is encouraged to be free with herself intimately and suffers disease and psychological damage that may never be reversed. Emotional, physical and spiritual scars will haunt her for life. People that love her may wish to prevent it, but their voices are drowned by the chorus of wolves that really want a piece of her life for their own. Used up, diseased and wasted beyond her years she decides that there is no future and ends her life prematurely. Her name was Honey and I once knew her.

A young middle school boy, who does not yet know about sexual preferences, is encouraged to settle on one. The wrong one.
He's encouraged by people that will have little or nothing to do with the repercussions of his decision later in life. In due course the boy is exposed to illicit drugs, dangerous intimate liasons and the complete destruction of a solid core of long lasting personal relationships, not to mention the lack of a satisfying and rewarding spiritual life. His name was Peter. He was a good friend until the New Jersey police found his naked beaten corpse tied to a bed in a cheap hotel room.

People that want a piece of your body, mind and soul will encourage you to behave as they believe, not because it will benefit you but because they will be able to satisfy some filthy urge of their own; sex, addiction, even greed. Some of the biggest con artists I've ever met were educators, and we're talking about a fair amount of money folks (100 grand fair).

Is this a rant against the gay life style? youbetcha I have a grave to visit for inspiration that keeps me going on that one.
Is this a rant against teen promiscuity? bingo That would be two graves, reader.

I spend time at the cemetary when I could have been enjoying good times with dear friends.

I don't want to hear about rights and love.

That kind of talk is subversive to life and true liberty, Christian liberty, the only kind of freedom that matters; JESUS CHRIST.

There is no freedom in exercising one's right to chose a sexual preference. There is only the risk of death and in some cases a certainty.
I wish I could have Honey and Peter back, but I won't.

Meanwhile there are hyenas out there who are trying as hard as they can to steal people like that from someone else, from decent behavior, even from Christian fellowship.
The fires of hell await them and I for one think they'll get what they deserve.

 

[Joshua David]

It's talking about those who "sin willfully". It's quite simple actually.

Ducky, maybe it would help if you defined exactly what you mean when you say 'sin willfully'. Does it mean to willingly sin, continue with a sinful lifestyle, or what? What does that phrase mean to you?


Joshua David

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

He's not talking about struggling with sins... He's talking about someone who has received Christ and afterwords willfully rejected Him... and I'm not even talking about momentarily rejecting Him... if that was so Peter would have no hope... after all He denied the Lord even after Jesus had said that if anyone denied Him before men He'd deny them before the Father... Peter willfully rejected Christ after receiving the truth... but He said to Peter, "After you've returned to me" which Peter did... So this scripture is talking about those that never return to Him... He's talking about those that have made the decision to trample the Son of God underfoot, count the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insult the Spirit of grace... after they have already received the truth.

That isn't done through confession of sin with the expectation that if we do so He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleans us of all unrighteousness...

That's done through willfully rejecting the reality of what Christ did which can also happen when after we've understood that we were justified by His blood... that we're saved by the Spirit of grace.... then turning back to trusting in our own righteousness for salvation... it's insulting to the Spirit of Grace to think such things... it's considering the blood of the covenant a common thing to start to believe you can be made righteous apart from it... and it's trampling the Son of God underfoot to boast in your own righteousness when the truth is apart from Him we're hopeless.

So like everyone else I've encountered since I've been a Christian who's taken that scripture and twisted it into making those who have failed feel like they should quit... all while deceiving others into trusting in their own righteousness that they're good enough apart from the blood.... you need to grasp the whole message of Christ... and not take one scripture that's kind of hard to understand and based on your misunderstanding of it reject everything else that's said...

Jesus said that the one who confessed their sin and saw their need for mercy went away justified... and not the one who trusted in themselves that they were righteous... to see the truth of that is to give glory to the Spirit of Grace, honor to the blood of the covenant... and the worship the Son of God deserves for being our salvation... He's our righteousness... all glory to Him... PERIOD...

I agree. It's not that we chose to sin for a moment, or gave in to our own weakness, or what ever.

If we look at the entire verse, it's about those who accepted the faith of the Lord and believed, then, Turned and went back to another religion or lack there of,,,

This verse is specific about going back to the Law of Moses,, that's what's meant by "No other sacrifice."

If someone sinned and repented, it's the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross that they will be depending on, and the Word says, "If we confess our sins he will cleanse us from all unrighteiousness" (paraphrased).

Now, no other sacrifice,,, what would that be? Since there is none other, the only other thing to look forward to would be judgement. A cow or ox wouldn't suffice, a million chickens wouldn't come close. The only thing you could look forward to is judgement.

Not only that, but, doesn't the Word say, that the Lord chastises those He loves? I believe somewhere else the Bible says, that we are judged while we're alive. In other words, If I sin, God may chose to judge me then and there, and my discipline is on it's way.

Any of you who have not sinned willfully, good for you! Any of you who have sinned willfully,,, Well, don't worry, you can still be forgiven!
Someone asked what the difference between milk and meat is,,,,,,,,,,,,Let's move out of kindergarden shall we?

 

[Fire-7]

For the people who say that no one can be born gay, what do you say about animals that are homosexual??? And before you try to dispute this FACT, feel free to look it up. Don't take my word for it, but several studies have shown that many species in the animal kingdom are genetically homosexual--from lions to birds. Some penguins even have homosexual families--where two male birds will raise a chick.

So what ydo you say about these gay animals? Do they have a homosexual spirit in them? Are they going to hell?

And what also do you say about human beings who were born as hermaphrodites, with both sexes, having to choose which one they feel most comfortable with?

What also happens to the soul of a person who gets a sex change procedure done on them? What if they accept Jesus AFTER they got the sex change? Are they damned to hell because they are living as the opposite sex? And what if a christian gets a sex change and changes his or her mind later on?

 

[tomwebster]

F-7,
I am willing to let God be the judge, are you?

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Romans 1:27



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.

24 Why God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[Fire-7]

The point I was making with this thread was that Christians can be very insensitive, and even cruel to the bone, not only on ths issue, but especially when it comes to this issue. And as predicted, everyone has rabbit trailed all around the issue at hand, which is bashing=insensitivity. But judging by the responses, many of you see no problem with it. Because to you, the mark of a true prophet is one who goes around being rude; insulting people and verbaly abusing them into submission...when the bible--the same one you're preaching to me out of--says that love is not "rude", among several other things that you all do.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

The point I was making with this thread was that Christians can be very insensitive, and even cruel to the bone, not only on ths issue, but especially when it comes to this issue. And as predicted, everyone has rabbit trailed all around the issue at hand, which is bashing=insensitivity. But judging by the responses, many of you see no problem with it. Because to you, the mark of a true prophet is one who goes around being rude; insulting people and verbaly abusing them into submission...when the bible--the same one you're preaching to me out of--says that love is not "rude", among several other things that you all do.

Never saw any of this rudeness as you claim. You asked we answered.

Frankly, I'm getting a little tired of your game. However, in the good faith that you may actually be curious and have no ill intentions, I'll continue with your conversations.

 

[Fire-7]

Never saw any of this rudeness as you claim. You asked we answered.

Frankly, I'm getting a little tired of your game. However, in the good faith that you may actually be curious and have no ill intentions, I'll continue with your conversations.

And what game is it that you think I'm playing?

 

[Rach1370]

The point I was making with this thread was that Christians can be very insensitive, and even cruel to the bone, not only on ths issue, but especially when it comes to this issue. And as predicted, everyone has rabbit trailed all around the issue at hand, which is bashing=insensitivity. But judging by the responses, many of you see no problem with it. Because to you, the mark of a true prophet is one who goes around being rude; insulting people and verbaly abusing them into submission...when the bible--the same one you're preaching to me out of--says that love is not "rude", among several other things that you all do.

Hey 7! You know, the thing about Christians is that we're sinners! Robbie was right when he said that our only righteousness comes through Christ. The unfortunate truth is that we sometimes take a truth, and handle it with sin. Homosexuality is wrong. The Bible is clear. But the bashing you were refering to...that's not Biblical. We desperately need to stick to Biblical truth, with Biblical love...and quite frankly, I sometimes feel that the only way we can do that is if we ask the Holy Spirit for help. It's really our only hope of responding to almost everything in a godly way, rather than a human, fallen way.
So rather than discuss homosexuality, and what is or is not sin, I'll just say that I pray that God will help me to face my sin and others sin with an attitude that will bring glory back to Him!!

 

[Foreigner]

The point I was making with this thread was that Christians can be very insensitive, and even cruel to the bone, not only on ths issue, but especially when it comes to this issue. And as predicted, everyone has rabbit trailed all around the issue at hand, which is bashing=insensitivity. But judging by the responses, many of you see no problem with it. Because to you, the mark of a true prophet is one who goes around being rude; insulting people and verbaly abusing them into submission...when the bible--the same one you're preaching to me out of--says that love is not "rude", among several other things that you all do.

-- I think your point would be better taken if you were to say SOME Christians can be very insensitive.
I have never seen an individual Christian or members of a Christian organization ever address homosexuals this way.

You have boneheads like the Westboro Baptist people who claim to be "Christian" but I have also yet to meet any Christian anywhere who agrees with them.

As I have mentioned, I am normally approached by gay rights supporters and they demand I support my position.

I do it calmly and scripturally, emphasizing that I too was a great sinner who had to turn away from my sin to follow Christ.
I let them know that God loves them as much as He loves me, died for them just as He died for me...

Again, I have yet to witness a time when Christians have acted the way you state. I am sure it does happen, but I doubt often enough to paint all others with the same brush.

 

[Fire-7]

-- I think your point would be better taken if you were to say SOME Christians can be very insensitive.
I have never seen an individual Christian or members of a Christian organization ever address homosexuals this way.

You have boneheads like the Westboro Baptist people who claim to be "Christian" but I have also yet to meet any Christian anywhere who agrees with them.

As I have mentioned, I am normally approached by gay rights supporters and they demand I support my position.

I do it calmly and scripturally, emphasizing that I too was a great sinner who had to turn away from my sin to follow Christ.
I let them know that God loves them as much as He loves me, died for them just as He died for me...

Again, I have yet to witness a time when Christians have acted the way you state. I am sure it does happen, but I doubt often enough to paint all others with the same brush.

You obviously haven't listened to a lot of COGIC preachers. And I hate to say this, being a black person myslef. But I think that gay bashing is more predominant within the black community. It may be more of a cultural thing. Because blacks believe that whites brought homosexuality over to Africa. Supposedly, homosexuality was absolutely unheard of in Africa (except for rare occasions, in which if it was discovered, the homos would be killed.), until whites came and introduced slavery, apparently raping the men in front of their families to emasculate them and take their pride. It's a big thing inherent in black culture to be homophobic, because "that's a white thing." So, predominanlty believed in my culture is that if you are gay, it is a slap in the face of black history. Why do you think we have such an epidemic of the supermasculine (overcompensative) "thug" image within the black community.

It's probably not very ironic that each of the preachers I posted above are black. But if you have never seen what I am talking about, watch the videos. That's why I posted them, so no one could say I was just blowing smoke.

 

[Thomas-]

For the people who say that no one can be born gay, what do you say about animals that are homosexual??? And before you try to dispute this FACT, feel free to look it up. Don't take my word for it, but several studies have shown that many species in the animal kingdom are genetically homosexual--from lions to birds. Some penguins even have homosexual families--where two male birds will raise a chick.

So what ydo you say about these gay animals? Do they have a homosexual spirit in them? Are they going to hell?

And what also do you say about human beings who were born as hermaphrodites, with both sexes, having to choose which one they feel most comfortable with?

What also happens to the soul of a person who gets a sex change procedure done on them? What if they accept Jesus AFTER they got the sex change? Are they damned to hell because they are living as the opposite sex? And what if a christian gets a sex change and changes his or her mind later on?

There has never been any proof anyone has ever been born gay. They are all simply theories and possibilities. You can do all the research you want. I know I certainly have on this issue which I have debated many times. I don't see why we should be compared to animals considering they live lives that are not even remotely close to ours. Animals also do not have morals or know the difference between right or wrong. Animal homosexuality is far more rare than human homosexuality and animal homosexuality is normally the result of two animals caged up for long periods of time with nothing to do. Animal homosexuality also ends when a female is brought into the same cage. At that point the two males will be fighting over her day and night.


If someone claims they are born gay then how do you explain all these former homosexuals that are now straight and have married the opposite sex and leading normal lives? Even Ellen degeneres former girlfriend is now happily married to a man. Are you seriously going to tell me if they are born that way then we should put former homosexuals into counseling and give them medication so they turn back into a gay person because they were born that way? People who are born a certain race are born that way and can not change it. People who are born a certain color are born that way and can not change that. Homosexuality is a choice because you can say you are gay one day and the next day you can choose not to be. Nothing is stopping you from dating a gay person or a straight person. It is all done on your own free will.




A person born a hermaphrodite is extremely rare and has probably only happened a few times in the last hundred years. A hermaphrodite may have the external looks of both a male and female but the human body internally is either a male or female. In other worlds this person can not get pregnant and also get a woman pregnant.




A person getting a sex change is obviously extremely crazy to do such a thing. I think getting a sex change is the ultimate insult to God and leads to a life of homosexuality and sin. I think getting a sex change is comparable to suicide since you are basically killing yourself and turning into something different. I could also think of nothing more selfish.




I find it hard to believe any real Christian would want a sex change. If they do then they are not Christians because there is nothing Christian about destroying your temple to rebuild it to live a life of homosexuality. As far as going to Hell...That is what judgment day is for. If a person does have a sex change and converts to Christianity he/she better make up for his or her past sins and evils with a lot of following God's laws and living a totally Christian lifestyle.




The fact that these following verses were written after Jesus died should give Christians a wake up call...




22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ Matthew 7:22




So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. Revelation 3:16




But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. Romans 2:5





9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

 

[Fire-7]

There has never been any proof anyone has ever been born gay. They are all simply theories and possibilities. You can do all the research you want. I know I certainly have on this issue which I have debated many times. I don't see why we should be compared to animals considering they live lives that are not even remotely close to ours. Animals also do not have morals or know the difference between right or wrong. Animal homosexuality is far more rare than human homosexuality and animal homosexuality is normally the result of two animals caged up for long periods of time with nothing to do. Animal homosexuality also ends when a female is brought into the same cage. At that point the two males will be fighting over her day and night.


If someone claims they are born gay then how do you explain all these former homosexuals that are now straight and have married the opposite sex and leading normal lives? Even Ellen degeneres former girlfriend is now happily married to a man. Are you seriously going to tell me if they are born that way then we should put former homosexuals into counseling and give them medication so they turn back into a gay person because they were born that way? People who are born a certain race are born that way and can not change it. People who are born a certain color are born that way and can not change that. Homosexuality is a choice because you can say you are gay one day and the next day you can choose not to be. Nothing is stopping you from dating a gay person or a straight person. It is all done on your own free will.




A person born a hermaphrodite is extremely rare and has probably only happened a few times in the last hundred years. A hermaphrodite may have the external looks of both a male and female but the human body internally is either a male or female. In other worlds this person can not get pregnant and also get a woman pregnant.




A person getting a sex change is obviously extremely crazy to do such a thing. I think getting a sex change is the ultimate insult to God and leads to a life of homosexuality and sin. I think getting a sex change is comparable to suicide since you are basically killing yourself and turning into something different. I could also think of nothing more selfish.




I find it hard to believe any real Christian would want a sex change. If they do then they are not Christians because there is nothing Christian about destroying your temple to rebuild it to live a life of homosexuality. As far as going to Hell...That is what judgment day is for. If a person does have a sex change and converts to Christianity he/she better make up for his or her past sins and evils with a lot of following God's laws and living a totally Christian lifestyle.




The fact that these following verses were written after Jesus died should give Christians a wake up call...




22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ Matthew 7:22




So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. Revelation 3:16




But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. Romans 2:5





9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Not that I owe you an explaination, as you are not God. But for the sake of Truth (which I am committed to above all else) and conversation (since I brought up the issue), I will say that you have a point on some things that you have said, and I appreciate your input.

One thing I have to diagree with you on, however, is the idea that no one can be born gay. I don't know why so many Christians and ministers insist on this idea. But it is totally false. It may be true in some cases that someone was just influenced by their peers and indulged in homosexuality because of peer pressure. I have seen this happen (well, heard of it). There have also been homosexuals who have given into heterosexual peer pressure--had relations with the opposite sex and regretted it later. So this idea that gay people are all about recruiting is also false, because straight people recruit just as much. I think, just to be faur and give the other side the bnefit of the doubt, that it is 50/50. I think that some people are gay by societal influence, while others are gay because of genetic disposition (there are reasons I believe this--not just because I want to). It may be a "theory", but isn't the bible itself a book of theories? Where is the proof that every stopry in the bible actually happened? So, apparently, you can't always base truth on facts.

As a man with SSA (notice I don't call myslef homosexual, because I'm on the fence in the matter), aside form science and research, I can personally tell you that I don't just like men because I want to like them. If that was the case, I would've given it up a long time ago. Do you really think I want to feel like a social outcast, lonely, isolated, ashamed, different? I heard of a story of a gay man who, when he was a young boy, and his family would go to the neighborhood swimming pool, he would sink himself to the bottom of the pool and hold his breath, hoping that when he floated to the top, he would be "normal", This is one story of countless stories of people trying their hardest to be something they're not, and eventually giving up and saying, "This is me, I'm just going to have to live with it." You might say "You're just not trusting in the power of God to heal you." Well, tell that to the many people who have cried out to God in fasting and prayer, asking Him to take the feelings away from them, only to wake up with the same SSA, eventually having to classify themself as a "gay christian." Also tell that to Michael Bussee, one of the founders of "Exodus International", the largest "exgay" organization in the nation, who strived for years to live the life of a heterosexual Christian (married and all), only to later have to admit that his exgayness was a lie--in turn, exposing the dishonesty in the organization, and inspiring other ex ex gays to speak out against the ex-gay movement.

But back to me. I personally have never been attracted to females. And I can remember back as far as age 5. I can remember my first crush and all. Now, where did all of this come from, I don't know. But I also know that one of my parents was once practicing homosexuality, long before I was born, before becoming a Christian. It may have been a "generational curse" or "genetic predisposition". Whatever name you put on it, it's the same thing. But, SSA is all I know. I have tried to imagine what it would be like to be "straight", but that's as far as I can go with it. The thought of heterosexual intercourse is, to put it bluntly, disgusting to me! The same as homosexual sex would be disgusting to you. I can and do appreciate the beauty of women--some I greatly admire. So, I don't hate women. But the thought of being intimate with them is a line I don't cross. Why? Because I feel deeply that I would not be being true to myself. Call it "selfish" all you want. But unless you are in my shoes, you simply cannot understand my conviction in the matter. If I was to have intercourse with a woman (hypothetically speaking), it would simply be going through the motions--mechanical. Because I can't relate to a female on that level. A man, on the other hand, I can relate to physically and emotionally. Every part of my being is involved in loving a man. And it's not something I try to do. It just comes natural. This was before I ever did anything with a male. I felt deep down inside that I could love another male on all levels, just as if I had already done it.

And for the sake of theory: if you say that it's impossible for a person to be born gay, you are contradicting the bible right there. Because the bible even says that man is "born in sin, and shaped in iniquity..."