HOMOSEXUALITY REVISITED

[Rex]

Good thing i never went to bible school than??

So are you going to call them sinners and stone them ??

SO do you agree, as God sees them, innocent covered by the blood of teh lamb, sinless in His sight, or as the devil sees them sinners worthy of death, because a hunderd million christians agree with him the accuser.??


Lets not forget that God destoyrd teh world once already by flood, and the dead where not all "homosexuals".

In al His Love

It's not my job to execute judgment, it is part of my job to point to the truth.
The truth is not contained in the love in any and all circumstances church message, it's a lie that has been launched by progressive so called "christians" and others that want nothing to do with christianity, It's the same message coming from both the progressive church and the gay movement their one in the same. One directed at secular men and women the other directed at the so called church from with-in the so called church.

I see the catholic love doctors are first on the homosexuality scene prescribing love pills for everyone.

The prescription of love and bubbles for everyone anytime is nothing more than the shield of the enemy.

If we follow the love prescription to the end it leads us to questions like, If God is nothing but love then why did he even bother with the law? or right or wrong, or for that matter the bible at all, because you see a God that loves in any and all situations could never judge anyone anyway. The bible speaks volumes about Gods judgment, the love doctors answer to judgement or condemnation of wrong doing is to prescribe love pills in any and all situations, Gods antidote for open opposition is death, not unconditional love and bubbles pills.

So you see the love doctors prescription of love and bubbles 3 times a day in every instance is nothing more than placing a mussel on the truth,
It's a band-aid with a cartoon image of Jesus on the outside. It's used by these people as a medication that is able to justify and cure "cover" any type of sinful behavior. It's misuse has become the shield of the enemy, shielding everyone that takes doctors prescription from the arrows of the truth, "it's sinful and an abomination before God"
This love band-aid is a counterfeit love and prevents the true healing of Jesus threw the HS.

 

[aspen]

As soon as you show me a homosexual that does not know that homosexuality is consider a sin, I will be the first to tell him or her. I've never met one

 

[Rex]

As soon as you show me a homosexual that does not know that homosexuality is consider a sin, I will be the first to tell him or her. I've never met one

And they have no desire or intrest in changing, instead they want everyone else to change including God, that's why their an enemy of God.
BTW it's not considered a sin it is a sin.

 

[mjrhealth]

Come out of her my people lest you be a partaker of her sins.

Who is going to be the one too start this topic, millions of ' christians", in teh harlot church, partaking in her sins, why are we not writing about that, or are we afarid of what they might say??? Lets please men and keep the peace, and if they should go to hell well that is their problem, Good thing Jesus has invited the dregs of sociecty to His wedding feast, if He was expecting christians to fill the guest room it would be near empty.

In all His Love

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

As soon as you show me a homosexual that does not know that homosexuality is consider a sin, I will be the first to tell him or her. I've never met one

I don't know that that's true anymore. Now it's up for debate when some Christians tell them it isn't really a sin and the Bible is being misinterpreted. It's both good and bad new and I try to accentuate the positive. Homosexuals looking for a church will gravitate toward a church that affirms their homosexuality but the important point is that they're inside a church where they can be exposed to the gospel and develop a relationship with God that will hopefully lead them to re-examine their lives according to what they read in the Bible and eventually understand that homosexuality is not God's will for their life. Compare this to the all-or-nothing approach that most likely will keep them disfellowshipped from the Christian community altogether. Jesus angrily condemned those who erected walls between people and God and we dare not be guilty of the same thing. God accepts us just as we are but the calls us to be better and to grow in the faith. I'm all for anything that gets sinners into the church and I can only pray that they find joy in abandoning the homosexual lifestyle for something even greater.

Come out of her my people lest you be a partaker of her sins.

Who is going to be the one too start this topic, millions of ' christians", in teh harlot church, partaking in her sins, why are we not writing about that, or are we afarid of what they might say??? Lets please men and keep the peace, and if they should go to hell well that is their problem, Good thing Jesus has invited the dregs of sociecty to His wedding feast, if He was expecting christians to fill the guest room it would be near empty.

In all His Love

I don't even know what that means. Everyone who comes to the wedding feast will be Christian.

 

[marksman]

I don't know what channels you've been watching, but unless it's a female tarantula who mates and then kills the male, the male quite often mounts the female as she struggles in what can best be described as rape.

Once again but sorry you are wrong. The programmes I watch are anything by David Attenborough and various other naturalists and as I said, in most cases, and please note I said "most cases" not "all cases" the female decides when, where and with whom.

The question is, how do we as Christians reach out to individual homosexuals while at the same time mount a resistance to the homosexual agenda?

First you have to understand that the problem is not his homosexuality, the problem is rejection. Until that is dealt with, the homosexuality cannot be addressed so they are not to be witnessed to on the basis that they are a homosexual. You don't talk about it until he does and that means he is giving you permission to talk about it.

​What is first and foremost is that he has to know you accept him as a person, not as a homosexual.

Second your resistance to the homosexual agenda is based on your freedom of speech, religion and conscience. If they claim they have the right to SSM, then you have the same right to defend opposite sex marriage. If they say you don't, then you can rightly point out to them that they are intolerant and won't let you have what they are demanding for themselves.

The other thing to realise is that their agenda is based totally on lies so the antidote to that is the truth. Do that and you will find that they are reduced to throwing insults at you and name calling because they have no answer to the truth.

Exodus International, has finally had to conclude that their theories were incorrect and have only caused people harm

Until you know the full story of Exodus International, which I do, you cannot make a judgment on it. If all you read is what the homosexuals and main (lame) stream media are saying, you are not reading the truth.

I know for a fact as I have met them, that some of those who have been through the Exodus programme have not been harmed. No one in my branch of it were harmed.

I don't know any Christian ministry which has 100% success. Exodus is no different and as they were the fly in the ointment for homosexuals because they were the MOST SUCCESSFUL change agents they had to bring it down at all costs.

Never do people like you ever stop to consider that you might be wrong and that's sad for people who are supposed to be children of light walking in the truth.

"People like you" is a poor and unchristian generalisation that does not bear scrutiny.

The fact is the only people that never consider they are wrong are the homosexuals themselves. On other forums they have said that. Their words were "We never do anything wrong."

And one other thing. As you have no idea who I am, you have no idea whether I consider I might be wrong and please don't say you can because of what I write as what I write is based on years of study, experience of the movement and practical experience in counselling homosexuals and leading them out of homosexuality.

On that basis, I do think I know what I am talking about.

This is hard to substantiate either way. Homosexuals represent less than 2% of the population which invariably means that most children are molested by heterosexuals.

No its not. I have seen many pieces of research over the last 10 years dealing with this topic, and in every case, the highest number of child molesters, per head of population are homosexuals.

On raw data what you said is correct, but when you compare the per head of population (homosexual and heterosexual) the figure comes out at about 86% homosexual.

This is anecdotal evidence and circumstantial at best.

You really must do your homework. I have seen it reported in at least a dozen different media outlets, including secular ones and they don't usually print stuff that gives homosexuality a bad name so this has to be real for them to give it their attention as their ignoring it would leave them open to the charge they support homosexual activity of any kind.

So strong is your aversion that you willingly believe falsehoods about them. From the homosexuals' viewpoint, why should they trust or listen to people who are blindly and eagerly wedded to inaccurate information? The language of love is to pursue the truth about others, the language of hate is to fabricate untruths about an enemy. The message to homosexuals from Christians is loud and clear: WE HATE YOU! And they are repelled by it. So when are Christians going to own up to their role in obstructing homosexuals from finding the love of Christ?

This is one of the silliest remarks I have seen on a Christian Forum of any kind.

First - My aversion...What aversion is that?

Second - What falsehoods are that?

Third - What inaccurate information is that?

Fourth - What untruths are you talking about?

Fifth - What christians are you talking about who say they hate homosexuals?

Sixth - What obstructions are you talking about?

Making vague generalisations suggests to me that you are bereft of actual evidence and prefer to accuse and belittle rather than add positive ideas about bridging the gap from your own experience of ministry to homosexuals.

 

[aspen]

where is your evidence that I know nothing about Exodus International?

 

[Rex]

I like reading your post marksman but I'll be honest. Your posting habits which are infrequent, which makes reading and understanding your post very difficult for me.

You see you don't use the quote button that marks the quote with the ID of who it is your replying to, I and maybe others find it difficult to follow or remember who your quoting and constantly looking back trying to find or remember who said what, is very cumbersome sometimes, especially when you quote more than one person.

 

[Pelaides]

I challenge anybody to come to greenwich village in N.Y.C and observe the Gays,on consecutive weekends,and arrive at the conclusion that these people are not nuts. :lol:

 

[Robertson]

this topic has been debated here before but I felt that I needed to include this sceanario. some say that they support homosexuality, lesbianism and same sex unions. their reasoning is that it is a right and that there is nothing ethically, morally, spiritually or naturally WRONG with it. well, lets apply that same reasoning toward beastiality (or sexual interaction between different species) and incest. what applies to one should apply to the other. lets take natural into consideration. although technically an animal, we civilized humans are held at higher standards than other animals. although some despicaple acts are common in the uncivilized animal kingdom, sexual interactions among them exclude same sex. I view homosexuality and lesbianism to be in the same class with beastiality and incest and consider them to be not only ungodly, but unethical, disrespectful, immoral and unnatural.

Sniper762,

Dear Brother,

I like your thought about comparing the sins to bestiality. The Old Testament says the person who commits that crime be put to death and also the animal must be put to death! Animals can consent because if they didn't like it they would fight and bite your butt! Hahaha!

Seriously though, it simply comes down to the fact that God says not to commit homosexual acts. But they feel those urges and they think that justifies them in their error. They often say that God made them that way. But, we all come with urges, personalities, and desires and God commands us to control these. People want to fight, to steal, to be idle and lazy, to be alcoholics, and the list is endless. If everyone was to say, "Well I was made that way", then the commandments of God would have no effect. Being "made that way" is no excuse to justify your actions that are against God's will.

As far as our national laws go however, there is no basis behind barring specific groups from marriage. If you look at gay marriage, we Christians and others just think that it is against God's commandments and it is gross. Earlier Christians thought marriage between blacks and whites was disgusting and against God's will. Though they may be right, it still is no basis to persecute them if they are in love and want to enter into that covenant with each other. And what do we care? The fact is that the state cannot prove that it causes its citizens a real and credible threat of harm, besides what we may see as a moral harm. The same issue goes with polygamy. Plural marriage is illegal because our Western culture thinks it is gross and immoral. Surprisingly, a lot of Christians who read the Bible have come to the same conclusion when the Bible condones plural marriage and the whole blessed tribes of Israel were sprung out of polygamy. Not that I'm a polygamist or want any more wives, lol, but I am just using it as a point that even Christians can persecute other groups of people when they should not.

What we need to worry about is our Christian ethics and make sure we keep the commandments. If other people aren't, so be it. They will one day face God and realize they are not like Him and cannot be where He is.

 

[[email protected]]

When you meet a homosexual
Do you treat him or her with respect, equality, and dignity (Christian behavior)
or do you treat him or her with disdain, disrespect, and hatred (antichristian behavior)?
Why do I tend to think that it is more of the latter?

Bestiality - Really?

One needs to be cognizant of the times in which we live. I once was given the task of instructing a new employee in the operation of a major piece of equipment. During the time we spent on the job I was told, despite my expressed wishes to the contrary, how to mount a sheep. These are wicked times and no deviant thing can be dismissed as being imaginary. Somebody somewhere is doing it.

Meeting a gay person as a person is no problem with me, but if and when moral behavior is discussed I must express my opinion against it - or lose my soul for denying what I know to be right and true. The same is true for a soldier. I disapprove of men and women in uniform so strongly that I nearly become physically ill when I see one pass by (and I am a veteran of two deployments to the middle east).

It is the same for me as if soldiers were wearing pink fatigues or white tights instead of pants (as the Greeks do). The rainbow flag and the stars and stripes are the same to me. Neither of them is my flag, for my sexual orientation does not agree with theirs and my country is no longer my own (nor is it yours, dear reader).

Shall I then embrace those things for which they stand or shall I stand my ground when called upon to confess my opposition against them? I believe that the time is now for Christians to use what's left of their backbone and stand up - and let the chips fall where they may. We are hated as a religion already - perhaps it is time to seek respect. Love isn't filling our churches, they are shriveling, not growing.

It's time to stand up.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[marksman]

You see you don't use the quote button that marks the quote with the ID of who it is your replying to

Ignorance Rex, ignorance. I am not the most capable of internet users so if you can tell me how to get the posters ID in the quote I would be most appreciative.

1. As far as our national laws go however, there is no basis behind barring specific groups from marriage.

2. If you look at gay marriage, we Christians and others just think that it is against God's commandments and it is gross. Earlier Christians thought marriage between blacks and whites was disgusting and against God's will.

3. Though they may be right, it still is no basis to persecute them if they are in love and want to enter into that covenant with each other.

4. The fact is that the state cannot prove that it causes its citizens a real and credible threat of harm, besides what we may see as a moral harm.

5. Not that I'm a polygamist or want any more wives, lol, but I am just using it as a point that even Christians can persecute other groups of people when they should not.

6. What we need to worry about is our Christian ethics and make sure we keep the commandments. If other people aren't, so be it.

1. The purpose of government is to govern for the benefit of society, not a handful of people that have got a bee in their bonnet. There is no benefit to society in SSM. All it will do is give more business to the divorce lawyers. And as the homosexualists have publicly stated they want to destroy marriage as we know it, then the government has a responsibility to reject their demands.

2. As there is no comparison between a chosen way of life and a personal attribute that you are born with, to make such a comparison is worthless, especially as it is one of the favourites of the homosexualists used to promote their cause and I know for a fact that many blacks are offended in being compared to homosexuals.

3. Disagreeing with them is not persecuting them. The homosexualists have used this mantra to play the victim card as they do not have any concrete reasons for their demands.

4. That is not true. In my country members of Parliament have been sent myriads of papers that show the harm that SSM will do to society and they show many different reasons why this is the case and I have no doubt that it is the same in the USA. Once again, it is a mantra used by the homosexualists to promote their cause. I and others have posted various reasons in other forums where homosexuals are denying it will harm society and when I do this they go quiet or throw insults or derogatory statements at you.

5. Once again, choosing to disagree with them does not mean that they are being persecuted. It is interesting to note that the atheists in my country demand that any MP who is a Christian should ignore the fact that they are when they go through the door to parliament house. These same atheists do not believe that atheists should do the same. Like these atheists, homosexualists believe that an alternative view is not acceptable if it disagrees with them.

6. What we should be worried about is the church caving into the homosexual agenda to the extent that they promote what God has forbidden.

P.S. When you talk about homosexuals having a covenant, are you aware that for most of them their covenant is "until someone I find more attractive comes along?" and that is why the average homosexual relationship is two years.

 

[John S]

rjp - I'm Sorry but you sound hate-filled to me - and Jesus Christ would disapprove.
I had to speak my mind.

 

[By Grace Alone]

Just wondering...has anyone changed their position based on any of these debates about homosexuality in this forum?

BGA

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

First you have to understand that the problem is not his homosexuality, the problem is rejection. Until that is dealt with, the homosexuality cannot be addressed so they are not to be witnessed to on the basis that they are a homosexual. You don't talk about it until he does and that means he is giving you permission to talk about it.

​What is first and foremost is that he has to know you accept him as a person, not as a homosexual.


While this is true in the abstract, it's useless as a practical matter. Homosexuals view it as an identity, even if that is a deception. And to try to dialogue with them on a different premise will be seen as dismissive and supercilious. Sometimes it's more important to be heard than to be right.





Second your resistance to the homosexual agenda is based on your freedom of speech, religion and conscience. If they claim they have the right to SSM, then you have the same right to defend opposite sex marriage. If they say you don't, then you can rightly point out to them that they are intolerant and won't let you have what they are demanding for themselves.

True.


The other thing to realise is that their agenda is based totally on lies so the antidote to that is the truth. Do that and you will find that they are reduced to throwing insults at you and name calling because they have no answer to the truth.
Witnessing to the unregenerate mind presents challenges whether it takes the form of homosexuality or any other frame of rebellion against one's Creator. The trick is to get past the agenda and get through to the person. Political posturing should be viewed as so much flack slung in desperation to avoid the truth. It's not something to contend with, it's something to sidestep.



Until you know the full story of Exodus International, which I do, you cannot make a judgment on it. If all you read is what the homosexuals and main (lame) stream media are saying, you are not reading the truth.

I know for a fact as I have met them, that some of those who have been through the Exodus programme have not been harmed. No one in my branch of it were harmed.

I don't know any Christian ministry which has 100% success. Exodus is no different and as they were the fly in the ointment for homosexuals because they were the MOST SUCCESSFUL change agents they had to bring it down at all costs.
You assume I've only read the story through one source. I've read multiple sources both secular and religious. It seems to escape you that they might have been sincere and that their claims were, in fact, wrong.



"People like you" is a poor and unchristian generalisation that does not bear scrutiny.

It's a poor substitute for individual regard, I agree, but I've run into this gamut of opinions enough to see a recognizable pattern. There's a litany of untruths that non-homosexuals tell each other and never expose to scrutiny. You have expressed a few of these, therefore lumping yourself in with "people like you." A common governing principle I'm alluding to is your unwillingness to be challenged on these things. Like a "scientist" who has embraced global warming, evolution, or any other myth, he has abandoned science so that his cherished beliefs cannot be challenged or dismantled.



The fact is the only people that never consider they are wrong are the homosexuals themselves. On other forums they have said that. Their words were "We never do anything wrong."

Incorrect. Christians are just as capable of exhibiting ignoble traits as unbelievers, and prove so on a regular basis.


And one other thing. As you have no idea who I am, you have no idea whether I consider I might be wrong and please don't say you can because of what I write as what I write is based on years of study, experience of the movement and practical experience in counselling homosexuals and leading them out of homosexuality.

On that basis, I do think I know what I am talking about.
It's been my experience that people who hold your viewpoints never come to question them; particularly because contrary to what you say, the studies have confounded them. Homosexuals don't choose their orientation, cannot be cured of it, nor can be exorcised of it. There are a lot of popular myths in Christianity that are not rightfully subjugated to a rigorous pursuit of the truth.



No its not. I have seen many pieces of research over the last 10 years dealing with this topic, and in every case, the highest number of child molesters, per head of population are homosexuals.

On raw data what you said is correct, but when you compare the per head of population (homosexual and heterosexual) the figure comes out at about 86% homosexual.

There's no contradiction. I pointed out that most children are molested by heterosexuals and it's true, regardless of how the data plays out per capita.




First - My aversion...What aversion is that?
The one you willingly blind yourself to.


Second - What falsehoods are that?
The ones I have diligently defined.


Third - What inaccurate information is that?

Fourth - What untruths are you talking about?

Fifth - What christians are you talking about who say they hate homosexuals?

I'm talking about the ones that lie to themselves and turn a blind eye to their antipathy to homosexuals. I've said many times that the language of hate is to talk about others proliferating rumors, exaggerations, and outright myths. The language of love is to pursue the truth about another and be ready to revisit presumptions. When you express falsehoods about another group such as homosexuals, it comes across as hostility. They conclude that you don't and won't ever understand them and there's no common ground on which to hear the gospel from you. You can continue to kick against the goads all you like, but you aren't going to get through to the unregenerate homosexual in desperate need of Jesus because your unscientific method produces more walls than bridges.

 

[Rach1370]

As soon as you show me a homosexual that does not know that homosexuality is consider a sin, I will be the first to tell him or her. I've never met one

This is a good point...most homosexuals do indeed know that it's "a sin". But consider....apart from knowing that religious people frown and point to that 'sin'....are they really and truly aware what we are talking about? Do they know what sin is? What it does? How it affects our lives, our relationship with God? Do they know, in response to real knowledge of sin, what God offers them? Do they really know what grace can do in their lives?

I think these are questions we really need to ask ourselves...and them. Because as long as we assume they're in full possession of all the facts we could be short sheeting them on the most important information they will ever hear. But I think you are right in the fact that such information can and should be given with a loving nature, not a condemning one. After all, God loves and forgives, Satan accuses and condemns.

Anyway....also, I came across this article, and felt it spoke very strongly about this particular topic...it is by Rosaria Champagne Butterfield


In 1996, when Bill Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), I grieved with my people. I was an atheist then, and lived in a monogamous lesbian relationship, working as a tenure-track professor specializing in English literature and Queer Theory.
Now, some 17 years later, in the summer of 2013, the Supreme Court has delivered its historic DOMA decision. I am now a Christian, married to a man who serves God as a pastor, and I homeschool in the Classical Christian tradition the two youngest of my four children. And again, I grieve with my people.

Standing with the Disempowered
Perhaps you think that I have a knack — call it a spiritual “gift” if you like — of affiliating with the losing team?
One of my enduring life values, which carried me through the Feminist and Gay Rights movements of the 1990s, and continues to motivate me today as one of Christ’s own, is the desire to stand with the disempowered. So here I am. Standing in a familiar place, bearing a new heart supplied by the Holy Spirit, a renewed mind, transformed by Christ’s atoning love, a new mission, created from before the foundation of the world by God’s sovereignty, and a new identity as a daughter of the King. But here I stand, still sporting my comfortable shoes.

An Electric Few Weeks for a Former Lesbian
This has been an electric few weeks for a former atheist, now Christian disciple. First, Exodus International closes down. Truth be told, this is fine by me. Reparative therapy was never part of God’s method, and Jesus Christ did not die to make any para-church his bride. But Exodus detonated with a colossal bang, and took with it gospel integrity, leaving even more theological turbulence in its wake.
Now the Supreme Court, using strong, cosmological, moral language defending the human dignity of same-sex unions, overturns DOMA and Proposition 8, sending a resounding rebuke to the Christian ideal of creation ordinance, and with it, the normative (albeit not always redeemed) heterosexuality that undergirds it.

Gathering the Children in Close
So I did what parents across the country did — believing parents and unbelieving parents, gay parents and heterosexual ones. I gathered my children in close, and I talked with them. You probably did this, too. No big surprises in my talk.
No new news. No identity bombs were dropped. My children have always known that their mother used to be an atheist and a lesbian. They cut their teeth on this vocabulary, and could say the words before they knew what they meant. Saved by grace. Closets are for clothes, after all.
Here is what I know: God is bigger than my sin. And God is sovereign over Supreme Court decisions and shifting worldviews. He has had the first and he will have the last word on all matters of sin and grace.
The Church, Christ’s bride, is a God-made institution and will sustain herself in majesty in times of persecution or revival. Context matters not. Providence will paint the walls of this worldview.

Who Owns Your Heart
But Jesus, the Word made flesh, will not be drawn and quartered. He came to fulfill the whole law, every jot and tittle. And he wants your whole life relinquished to him. Any theology that denies God’s moral law, and then domesticates sin by its absence, does not have Christ’s atoning love, God’s justifying pardon, or the Holy Spirit’s kind company. The Red Letters of the New Testament, unmoored from the moral law of the whole Bible, offer only half the God-man, mangling the gospel by wrenching salvation from sin and belief from repentance. Even the demons believed in Jesus — and it only sent them straight to hell. All dangerous lies pack a dollop of truth. That was true when Jesus walked the earth, and it is true today. That we are saved from our sin simply reveals the obvious: God was right all along. No shame in truth that loves like this.
The Bible is not some pragmatist’s paradigm. It is the double-edged sword that chiseled truth into my stony heart, rendering it new and with it, recreating me as a new creature in Christ, a daughter of the King. I have no personal sexual orientation to call my own after Christ chisels my heart anew — and neither do you. We have Christ orientation, an alien identity to which we claim no rights. Do we struggle with sin? Yes. Is temptation a sin? No. What distinguishes temptation from sin? Temptation clobbers you from the outside and lures you to do its bidding. Sin makes temptation a house pet, gets it a collar and leash, and is deceived to believe that it can be restrained by impositions of civility. What you do with temptation reveals Who owns your heart. How you talk about other people’s sin patterns reveals Who owns your heart.

Lessons in Losing
So, here is what I have learned from being on the losing team of both historic, public, and political renderings of homosexuality.
Homosexuality is a sin, but so is homophobia. Homophobia is irrational fear of a whole people group, failing to see in that group God’s image diminished but not extinguished by sin, and that God’s elect people linger there, snared by their own design and awaiting gospel grace. Biding time. Think about that. Waiting like the caterpillar that spawned today’s butterfly. God has set apart a people from before the foundation of the world to receive his grace, and they are waiting for you in every nation and people group. It is an act of homophobia to believe that people in the LGBT community are either too sinful to respond to God’s call on their life, or to believe that people in the LGBT community have a fixed nature that will never, by the blustering, unfounded, and uncharitable declarations of secular psychology, change by the power of the gospel.
The only fixed feature of the human constitution or badge of personal identity is the soul; imprint of God to us, it will journey from life to death to life and will last forever, permanently, for eternity in heaven or hell.

Hopes, Dreams, Redemption
The gospel reorders and remakes people, and its metamorphosis manifests in a life that loves God more than itself. God doesn’t zap us. He walks with us through the valley of the shadow of death, promising that as we “proclaim and initiate an irreconcilable war against our choice sins,” as Puritan William Gurnell states, God will be there. The Rock. Never leaving nor forsaking. Never failing the soul who puts trust in Him (Psalm 9:10). No matter what.
God promises that he will make meaning, purpose, and grace out of your redeemed life. God provides the church to be family, from cradle to grave, where single Christians are cherished saints in Christ’s Kingdom, not people waiting to be fixed. And God provides Christ-redeemed heterosexual marriage so that his creation ordinance is fulfilled and so that his Bride, the church, has imaginative authority over hopes and dreams.

 

[marksman]

This vale of tears said - While this is true in the abstract, it's useless as a practical matter.

My experience and that of others that work in the ministries to homosexuals that we have been involved in know that it is not useless as a practical matter.

VOT said - And to try to dialogue with them on a different premise will be seen as dismissive and supercilious

Dialoguing with a person on the basis that they are a person, not a label is not dismissive and supercilious.

TVOT SAID - The trick is to get past the agenda and get through to the person.

You seem to be saying the opposite in your previous comment.

TVOT SAID - You assume I've only read the story through one source.

No I don't. I asked "IF all you read..." which you may or may not.

TVOT SAID - It seems to escape you that they might have been sincere and that their claims were, in fact, wrong

They weren't wrong to those people who were able to escape their homosexuality through Exodus. It is common knowledge that the homosexualists always point out the negatives and failures and ignore the successes.

Even one notable homosexual said that to claim that no one can change their orientation is complete and utter rubbish as obviously there are some who have.

But of course, the homosexualists claim that those who changed their orientation were never homosexuals in the first place.

TVOT SAID - You have expressed a few of these, therefore lumping yourself in with "people like you."

I don't like being called a liar when I am not so can you enlighten me and let me know what I have said was a lie.

TVOT SAID - A common governing principle I'm alluding to is your unwillingness to be challenged on these things.

Do tell me what things I am unwilling to be challenged on. To date, I have not thrown a tantrum because someone has disagreed with me.

TVOT SAID - Incorrect.

How do you know when I haven't told you which forum the statement was made in?

TVOT SAID - It's been my experience that people who hold your viewpoints never come to question them; particularly because contrary to what you say, the studies have confounded them.

Two things. saying that people who hold your viewpoints never come to question them again is an unproven and vague generalisation as you don't know everyone who holds to these views.

And secondly, what studies are you referring to? Saying "the studies" means nothing.

TVOT SAID - There's no contradiction. I pointed out that most children are molested by heterosexuals and it's true, regardless of how the data plays out per capita.

Yes there is. Most sociological research and I have a degree in Social Science is done on the basis of per capita as it is known that just dealing with raw figures skews the facts.

Whatever the subject is, it is obvious if you have more of one kind they are going to do whatever it is you are researching more often. Therefore to get an accurate comparison, you base your finding on a per capita basis.

To put it plainly, if there are 10 homosexuals and one molests children and there are 100 heterosexuals and 10 molest children, both are on a per capita basis guilty of the act to the same degree for the simple reason that if there were 100 homosexuals you would extract a finding in all probability that 10 of them molest children.

TVOT SAID - The one you willingly blind yourself to.

And which one is that?

TVOT SAID - The ones I have diligently defined.

Still don't know what you are talking about.

TVOT SAID - You can continue to kick against the goads all you like, but you aren't going to get through to the unregenerate homosexual in desperate need of Jesus because your unscientific method produces more walls than bridges.

This is rather a strange statement. I have been getting through to unregenerate homosexuals for years, through the ministry I am involved in so I don't know where you get this idea that I won't. Perhaps it is another one of your vague generalisations that we are talking about here.

We have never used what you call the "scientific" method, whatever that is as God gave us a brief to use his methods which is that the truth will set you free, not science.

TVOT SAID - Homosexuals don't choose their orientation, cannot be cured of it, nor can be exorcised of it.

No one is saying they can. What we are talking about is not homosexual orientation but homosexuality which is quite different. One is chosen and the other is not.

Some act on their orientation and some don't. Having an orientation which you didn't choose is not a sin but acting on it is as the Bible clearly shows that ALL sex outside of marriage is sin.

 

[mjrhealth]

One needs to be cognizant of the times in which we live.

Yes really odd that a" christian", should make such aa statement. We live in a fallen world where much has become corrupted. It is ok for murderers to murder, pastors to lie, priests to rape, thieves to steal, but God forbid you be born with your flesh messed up . This is a "lets pick on the homosexauls" again thread, now lets start with the sins of the church.

Homosexuality- right off the bat.
Child abuse
Rape
Murder
Theft
Should I go on,

Judgement will begin in the house of God, Where will you stand

In All his Love

 

[aspen]

None of us can love perfectly yet; therefore we are all sinners and we all need Christ.

 

[marksman]

Yes really odd that a" christian", should make such aa statement. We live in a fallen world where much has become corrupted. It is ok for murderers to murder, pastors to lie, priests to rape, thieves to steal, but God forbid you be born with your flesh messed up . This is a "lets pick on the homosexauls" again thread, now lets start with the sins of the church.

I don't want to be unnecessarily contentious, but we need to put things in perspective.

Lets say you are kneeling in prayer at church and someone comes along and bangs you on the head. You ignore the person and continue praying because that is more important, so he bangs you on the head again. Again no response from you so he bangs you on the head again. This goes on for quite a while.

Finally, you think that you had better find out what is going on, if nothing more than to stop you being banged on the head. You ask "why do you keep banging me on the head?" The head banger says "becuase you are praying and I don't want you to pray.?

You ask "Why not?" His reply is "because when you pray, you stop me doing what I want to do that you don't agree with."

Now you have three choices. Stop praying so that the person will stop banging you on the head.

Keep praying and keep having your head banged.

Confront the person who is doing the head banging so that he will stop it and so you can keep praying.

All three are the chosen method of the church. The first has been chosen by many churches on the basis of anything for a quiet life that slides into spiritual oblivion.

The second has been chosen so as not to offend the homosexualists and which usually compromises the truth of scripture.

The third seems to be the remnant church that stands up to evil and condemns it and calls it for what it is so that they can stand fast on the truth of the Word and continue doing what they know they should be doing and that is to thwart the evil deeds of satan, amongst other things.

Guess which church the homosexualits hate? Number three because they know that is the one that stand between them and debauchery so they constantly attack it with emotive and emotional language that does not have a shred of truth to it.

You will probably not find a church in number three that ignores other sins. It is usually the churches that justify sin that ignore the ones you have listed.

As you read scripture it becomes obvious that truth and love are inseparable. One is effective when the other is operational. You will find as I have, that the people who the homosexualists respect the most are the people who tell the truth, although it doesn't seem like that. Those that agree with them and affirm their lies are in fact held with contempt as sad sack christians with no backbone. They love to hear them say yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir and put another notch on their gun.

One final thought. The homosexualists have certain lines of attack which they use constantly based on the notion that if you tell a lie enough times it becomes the truth. One of these has been and is that the scripture has been translated incorrectly about homosexuality.

It doesn't in fact condemn it. In fact it approves of it in a loving relationship between two men or two women. What this means is that the scripture interpretation is wrong according to homosexuals. The sad thing is that some churches believe them and are bending over backwards to accommodate their interpretation of scripture.

The no compromise church stands on the truth of scripture that ALL sex outside marriage is a sin, so they have no problem with "what does the scripture really say about homosexuality" and are not duped into believing that you can't really believe anything God says, you know the one that doesn't exists for the homosexual that does not believe in God.

The strange thing about their argument is if God does not exist, why does it matter what he says, because if he doesn't exist, he is obviously not saying it. I don't believe that Buddha exists so I don't give a damn what he is supposed to have said.