HOMOSEXUALITY REVISITED

[Selene]

It seems that the homosexuals also do not like Church #2 because they constantly bang on their heads. Why bang on the heads of those praying for them? It is because prayers are actually very powerful. I know of someone who prayed for her homosexual son to give up homosexuality. God answered her prayers. This does not mean that her son is no longer a homosexual. I'm sure he may still find men attractive, but he gave up the ACT of homosexuality. He is no longer living that lifestyle. His mother didn't give any reason as to what happened that made him make that choice....but no matter. It shows that prayers are powerful (See James 5:16).

 

[mjrhealth]

I can see it,
Jesus standing on judgement day before mankind, he says to man, al those who where called homosexuals please stand to one side, teh crowd moves and a seperation begings. Than Jesus draws a line in teh sand and says all those who agree these are sinners please stand over there a short pause than satan and a million christains and others all move to one side, than Jesus says "satan stand in front of that group who agree with you and show them who you are", so he does as he is told , than Jesus says to the crowd, now that you see who you agree with, understand this, when you agree with him you do not agree with me, So now that you have judged them as sinners, is that how you would have me judge you??

Judge not lest you be judged??

In all His Love

 

[marksman]

Judge not lest you be judged??

I am not aware of any scripture that says if you tell the truth you are being judgmental. I do know that if you know the truth, it will set you free.

 

[Dodo_David]

I will start my reply by quoting two statements in my commentary "Homosexuality and the Church".

If a person has not received the free gift of eternal life offered by God, then it does not matter who that person feels sexually attracted to. The job of the Church, then, is to share with people how they can have a life that is abundant and eternal.

It is foolish to expect spiritual fruit from someone who is spiritually dead. When dealing with spiritually-dead people, the first order of business for the universal Church is share the Gospel. Doing so doesn't require us to argue about the details of a person's sins.

Dealing with the issue of homosexuality is much like walking through a minefield. We have to be careful, lest someone gets hurt. We do not want to make the mistake of breaking a bruised reed or quenching a smoldering wick. We need to be firm, but we also need to be gentle.

Plenty of Christians have zeal, but zeal is not a substitute for tact and diplomacy. The latter two are required when dealing with anyone who is engaging in any kind of sin.

 

[Rex]

I am not aware of any scripture that says if you tell the truth you are being judgmental. I do know that if you know the truth, it will set you free.

Those are some true words, to bad it gets you slapped with a hater sticker but isn't that what we were told would happen?


Matthew 10:22
Mark 13:13
Luke 21:17
John 15:18

 

[mjrhealth]

I can call Rex a sinner because he is, I can call Selene a sinner because she is, even Dodo_david, and marksman, tha tis what we are by the nature of our flesh and it will not change untill Christ changes us, or we die. But unr=till than we have no right to"judge" no man. If you call a man a siiner form what you see, than you have judged him, you have declared to him tha t5he is bad by his appearance,

Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

I hope you can understand how easy it is to agrre with satan,

Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

And whe nyou stand before Christ and He asks you,
Why did you call that man a sinner?
Because He is a homosexual Jesus,
Do oyu bnot know that you too are a sinner and deserved of death?
Yes Jesus
So why pray tell me do they not desrve to come to heaven.
Because they are sinners Jesus, they are homosexuals.
DId i not die for teh sins of all mankind??
Yes Jesus,
so why do you seem to think that I didnt die for them too?
You did Jesus.
So why do you say they are homosexuals and sinner?
Because Jesus I look at what they do and that is enough?
Do ypu not think that I see what you do everyday, and all desrevs death yet I forgive you, should I not forgive them too??
I gues so Jesus.
DO you know why ther are the way they are?
They made a choice Jesus.
You made a choice to judge them, tell me which is worse?
I am not sure Jesus.
Again tell me why they are the way they are?
I dont know.
Do you not think the copruption come about by the fall of man may have a part to play.?
Possibly Jesus.
Well I see the hearts of everyman, and I judge righteously because I judge as my father Judges so leave teh Judging to me you have no right to jugde anyman.


If we where given the right to judge, the catholics would throw everyone into hell, the protestants would throw the catholics into hell, the christains would send themselves to hell, and soon heaven would be a very empty place and God would be alone. I am so glad that Jesus will do teh judging and not us.

In all His Love

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I am not aware of any scripture that says if you tell the truth you are being judgmental. I do know that if you know the truth, it will set you free.

It really is one of the most misquoted scriptures in the Bible, particularly by those who aren't even Christian to begin with and want a cudgel to keep us from speaking the truth. Those of us who are Bible literate know Jesus was saying not to judge hypocritically.

 

[Dodo_David]

Jesus did say that we would be judged by the same standard that we judge others by.

Anyway, God has already judged certain behaviors as being sinful, and among those behaviors is sex between two members of the same gender.

Now, when dealing with a spiritually-dead person, is it required of us to argue about which behaviors are sinful and which aren't? I don't think so.

However, when a person becomes a born-again follower of the Messiah Jesus, we are to instruct that person about the behaviors that God has judged to be sinful.

 

[day]

Sniper762,

Dear Brother,

I like your thought about comparing the sins to bestiality. The Old Testament says the person who commits that crime be put to death and also the animal must be put to death! Animals can consent because if they didn't like it they would fight and bite your butt! Hahaha!

Seriously though, it simply comes down to the fact that God says not to commit homosexual acts. But they feel those urges and they think that justifies them in their error. They often say that God made them that way. But, we all come with urges, personalities, and desires and God commands us to control these. People want to fight, to steal, to be idle and lazy, to be alcoholics, and the list is endless. If everyone was to say, "Well I was made that way", then the commandments of God would have no effect. Being "made that way" is no excuse to justify your actions that are against God's will.

As far as our national laws go however, there is no basis behind barring specific groups from marriage. If you look at gay marriage, we Christians and others just think that it is against God's commandments and it is gross. Earlier Christians thought marriage between blacks and whites was disgusting and against God's will. Though they may be right, it still is no basis to persecute them if they are in love and want to enter into that covenant with each other. And what do we care? The fact is that the state cannot prove that it causes its citizens a real and credible threat of harm, besides what we may see as a moral harm. The same issue goes with polygamy. Plural marriage is illegal because our Western culture thinks it is gross and immoral. Surprisingly, a lot of Christians who read the Bible have come to the same conclusion when the Bible condones plural marriage and the whole blessed tribes of Israel were sprung out of polygamy. Not that I'm a polygamist or want any more wives, lol, but I am just using it as a point that even Christians can persecute other groups of people when they should not.

What we need to worry about is our Christian ethics and make sure we keep the commandments. If other people aren't, so be it. They will one day face God and realize they are not like Him and cannot be where He is.

I agree with what you say about secular law and what I will call domestic partnerships. However I do not think the homosexual or lesbian unions should be called marriage. Marriage is part of heterosexual identity, both religious and civil. It is not right for the LGBT community to steal that identity in order to gain benefits. They should find names for their unions (perhaps harriage - homosexual union, larriage - lesbian union, marriage - mixed gender union could be a start at least in English).

All three unions could then be classified as domestic partnerships. Ministers/priests could apply for privileges to perform only those unions they feel comfortable with and if pressured by the LGBT groups could simply say, "I am not qualified to perform that union."

The Church needs to be wise in using the law to protect iself while not imposing itself on a free secular society. The Church also needs to stiffen its spine and tell homosexuals that God does no approve of same gender sex and not grant membership to sexually active couples. We need to go back to removing people continuing in serious sin from fellowship, and allowing them to return to fellowship only after a time of penance. If it applied to all equally, homosexuals could not cry discrimination when barred from membership. They would have to be sincere about seeking God's will. If they are, then they should be welcomed with open arms and every assistance given them.

 

[Dodo_David]

I agree with what you say about secular law and what I will call domestic partnerships. However I do not think the homosexual or lesbian unions should be called marriage. Marriage is part of heterosexual identity, both religious and civil. It is not right for the LGBT community to steal that identity in order to gain benefits. They should find names for their unions (perhaps harriage - homosexual union, larriage - lesbian union, marriage - mixed gender union could be a start at least in English).

All three unions could then be classified as domestic partnerships. Ministers/priests could apply for privileges to perform only those unions they feel comfortable with and if pressured by the LGBT groups could simply say, "I am not qualified to perform that union."

The Church needs to be wise in using the law to protect iself while not imposing itself on a free secular society. The Church also needs to stiffen its spine and tell homosexuals that God does no approve of same gender sex and not grant membership to sexually active couples. We need to go back to removing people continuing in serious sin from fellowship, and allowing them to return to fellowship only after a time of penance. If it applied to all equally, homosexuals could not cry discrimination when barred from membership. They would have to be sincere about seeking God's will. If they are, then they should be welcomed with open arms and every assistance given them.

It is possible to withhold communion from a person who is involved in a sinful relationship without keeping that person from participating corporate worship.

Also, I'd like to know who gets to determine which sins are serious and which sins aren't. If it takes only one sin to earn a person spiritual death, then every sin is serious.

 

[Selene]

It is possible to withhold communion from a person who is involved in a sinful relationship without keeping that person from participating corporate worship.

Also, I'd like to know who gets to determine which sins are serious and which sins aren't. If it takes only one sin to earn a person spiritual death, then every sin is serious.

According to the Holy Bible, there are some sins that don't lead to death. In other words, those who commit these lesser sins can be saved from the fires of Hell.

1 John 5:16-17 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

 

[marksman]

It really is one of the most misquoted scriptures in the Bible, particularly by those who aren't even Christian to begin with and want a cudgel to keep us from speaking the truth. Those of us who are Bible literate know Jesus was saying not to judge hypocritically.

Sad to say, you are the one that is misquoting the scripture so lets look at it.

Joh 8:31 Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in Him, If you continue in My Word, you are truly My disciples.

John 8:32 And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

Jesus was speaking to Jews that believed on him. The discussion about sin and judgment had passed.

Three things are pointed out here. Continuing in His word. Being his disciples. Knowing the truth that will set them free. This has nothing at all to do with sin and judgment as those who are bible literate and don't use any verse to make a point, which sad to say, you have done, which suggests you can't find any verse that says that if you tell the truth you are being judgmental.

 

[Dodo_David]

Nowhere in the New Testament do I find evidence that homosexual behavior is the unpardonable sin.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

According to the Holy Bible, there are some sins that don't lead to death.(Physical) In other words, those who commit these lesser sins can be saved from the fires of Hell. Rather saved from premature physical death.

1 John 5:16-17 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

 

[mjrhealth]

The Church needs to be wise in using the law to protect iself while not imposing itself on a free secular society. The Church also needs to stiffen its spine and tell homosexuals that God does no approve of same gender sex and not grant membership to sexually active couples

.God does not approve of religions that seek to impart there own laws on men , keep them in bondage and stop any man from going to Him just because they say they can.

in all His Love

 

[Selene]

According to the Holy Bible, there are some sins that don't lead to death.(Physical) In other words, those who commit these lesser sins can be saved from the fires of Hell. Rather saved from premature physical death.

1 John 5:16-17 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Everyone dies a physical death including those who have lesser sins. In fact, even Jesus Christ died a physical death, and He didn't have any sins. St. John was referring to a spiritual death. There are sins that does not lead to death......meaning they are not condemn to Hell.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Everyone dies a physical death including those who have lesser sins. In fact, even Jesus Christ died a physical death, and He didn't have any sins. St. John was referring to a spiritual death. There are sins that does not lead to death......meaning they are not condemn to Hell.

Nope! The idea of John's is made clear below and carries the thrust of it.


Context:

1Co 11:28-30 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgement to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (DEAD)

koimaō
koy-mah'-o
From G2749; to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.





Refer to 1Co 11:31-32 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.


krinō
kree'-no
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially)

paideuō
pahee-dyoo'-o
From G3816; to train up a child, that is, educate, or (by implication) discipline (by punishment): - chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach.

 

[Dodo_David]

I do not understand what is being argued about in this thread. The Great Commission is to share the Gospel with people of all nations regardless of how they behave, regardless of what they may do sexually.

 

[Selene]

Nope! The idea of John's is made clear below and carries the thrust of it.


Context:

1Co 11:28-30 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgement to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (DEAD)

koimaō
koy-mah'-o
From G2749; to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.





Refer to 1Co 11:31-32 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.


krinō
kree'-no
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially)

paideuō
pahee-dyoo'-o
From G3816; to train up a child, that is, educate, or (by implication) discipline (by punishment): - chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach.

St. Paul was speaking about something different. The problem is that some of the Corinthians did not discern the bread and wine to be the actual body and blood of Christ. You took 1 Corinthians 11:31-32 out of context.

1 Corinthians 11:29-32 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

The verse right before it tells you exactly the reason why they are weak and sick. Why were many of them weak and sick and have fallen asleep? Because they ate and drank without discerning the body and blood of Christ. In other words, they were eating and drinking as though they were eating bread and drinking wine.......without discerning that what they were actually eating and drinking was the body and blood of Christ. Would this be a sin? Yes. Did they physically die?? No, because St. Paul was able to speak to them.

St. John made it clear that there are two kinds of sin......a lesser sin and a very grave sin. He distinguished these two sins because St. John says that those who committed the lesser sins can be saved through prayer. We can pray for them. He clearly specify that all sin is wrongdoing, but there are sins that do not lead to death and other sins that do lead to death. St. John would not be speaking of a physical death because we all die of a physical death. He is referring to a spiritual death.

1 John 5:16-17 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

St. Paul was speaking about something different. The problem is that some of the Corinthians did not discern the bread and wine to be the actual body and blood of Christ. You took 1 Corinthians 11:31-32 out of context.

1 Corinthians 11:29-32 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

The verse right before it tells you exactly the reason why they are weak and sick. Why were many of them weak and sick and have fallen asleep? Because they ate and drank without discerning the body and blood of Christ. In other words, they were eating and drinking as though they were eating bread and drinking wine.......without discerning that what they were actually eating and drinking was the body and blood of Christ. Would this be a sin? Yes. Did they physically die?? No, because St. Paul was able to speak to them.

St. John made it clear that there are two kinds of sin......a lesser sin and a very grave sin. He distinguished these two sins because St. John says that those who committed the lesser sins can be saved through prayer. We can pray for them. He clearly specify that all sin is wrongdoing, but there are sins that do not lead to death and other sins that do lead to death. St. John would not be speaking of a physical death because we all die of a physical death. He is referring to a spiritual death.

1 John 5:16-17 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

I don't think debating with you on this will gender anything constructive in the long run. As you may know "anyone convinced against their will is of the same opinion still".